Nokia Hits Back at Apple Again With New ITC Complaint

[cmaier]

There's not a lot in the iPhone that's patented by Apple. I can think of about four "major" items offhand: their particular touchscreen position decoder, their slot antenna using the case trim, their way of implementing a scrolling direction lock, and their way of doing a bounce at the end of a page. Oh, and their way of doing a slide-to-unlock.

I may be misremembering, but I think they also have a patent on particular aspects of pinch-zoom that, at the time I read the claims, seemed pretty fundamental.

They also have MANY continuations and applications in examination. I would be shocked if they didn't end up with many more aspects of iPhone and iOS patented before too long.

 

[ghostlyorb]

haha.. here we go again!

 

[addicted44]

And Apple isn't litigious? What a joke? Apple is one of the more litigious tech companies out there. You compare them to Google, or IBM, or heck, even Microsoft recently, and they make them look like the Mother Teresa of patent generosity. Apple are as bad as Oracle, in my books.

Apple will sue anything left right and centre. Remember their patents on things like "multi-touch", or "touchscreen phones".

Victor, you say that, but where is the evidence. Sure they have ridiculous patents, but you have to do that the way the patent system is setup in the US. However, where has Apple used its patents offensively against anybody, except HTC, in the recent past? Can you provide some links?

Google is really good about not suing people. But MSFT? They just sued Barnes And Noble! in the past week.

http://www.thinq.co.uk/2011/3/22/microsoft-sues-barnes-noble-android-patents/

And comparing to Oracle....hmm....

Seriously, you need to provide some evidence, for this litigious nature of Apple's.

Note: I am distinguishing between patent lawsuits and trademark infringement lawsuits. Trademarks can be lost if you don't actively defend them. Not the case for patents. So actually sending trademark infringement notices is a precondition to protecting them, which makes all companies (including Google) far more trigger happy with Trademark infringement based legal action.

 

[HyperZboy]

It did not go unnoticed to me that Apple is suing one cell phone related company and Nokia is suing SEVEN!
Kodak is suing FIVE!
And FOUR companies are suing Apple and HTC hasn't even countersued Apple! RIM is suing TWO!

What do the most suing companies have in common?

DECLINING.

 

[iliketyla]

It did not go unnoticed to me that Apple is suing one cell phone related company and Nokia is suing SEVEN!
Kodak is suing FIVE!
And FOUR companies are suing Apple and HTC hasn't even countersued Apple! RIM is suing TWO!

What do the most suing companies have in common?

DECLINING.

If I'm not mistaken, Apple took a dip before Steve Jobs came back and turned them into the successful company they are today.

How is this any different than some of these other companies taking a dip when someone comes out with a competitive device?

Suddenly because Nokia is transitioning into the smart phone market all the fanboys consider them to be a company on the verge of bankruptcy, even though they dominate the market in most countries.

 

[cmaier]

Suddenly because Nokia is transitioning into the smart phone market all the fanboys consider them to be a company on the verge of bankruptcy, even though they dominate the market in most countries.

Nokia has been in the smart phone market for a very long time.

 

[iliketyla]

Nokia has been in the smart phone market for a very long time.

I think we can all agree that Nokia's meat and potatoes has been in dumb phones. They are present in the smart phone market, but this merger if you will with Windows is going to be their attempt to really recreate themselves in a market they were not very successful in.

 

[cmaier]

I think we can all agree that Nokia's meat and potatoes has been in dumb phones. They are present in the smart phone market, but this merger if you will with Windows is going to be their attempt to really recreate themselves in a market they were not very successful in.

I don't think we can agree that. Nokia practically invented the smartphone with the Communicator line starting in 1996. Between Symbian and the Communicators, not sure how you can make that statement.

 

[cmvsm]

Ever see the cartoon where the elephant fell off of the cliff and is holding on by a single petaled daisy? Nokia and Microsoft fit those images to the tee.

 

[SandynJosh]

If Nokia has had these patents for 10 years before the iPhone, then why didn't they act when the iPhone was first released?

That idea occurred to me too. It seems like they are throwing suits against the wall hoping they can get some to stick... It's like, Well those didn't stick, let's see if any of these can get the job done..."

Personally I'd think they would have tried the suits with the best chances first. If so, they they've shot their wad and with this round Nokia is hoping for a miracle.

 

[vincenz]

The lawyers must be grinning ear to ear.

 

[SandynJosh]

Suddenly because Nokia is transitioning into the smart phone market all the fanboys consider them to be a company on the verge of bankruptcy, even though they dominate the market in most countries.

Nokia has floundered in the smart phone market for 14 years and couldn't get it right. The last four years of those 14 Nokia was up against Apple and couldn't get it right. Now since the smart phone market is where the growth is at, Nokia needs to get it right or become irrelevant except in the bottom end of the phone market where the profit per unit is really tiny.

I've never thought of them facing bankruptcy, however, I think their long-term future does depend on Nokia being a player in the smart phone category.

Hooking up with Microsoft was a good stop-gap plan to get into the market quicker, but the MS mobile 7 is still in its first iteration and it lacks enterprise features. Additionally, Nokia still is planning on eventually developing their own phone OS in-house, so their long-term road map is rather hazy.

 

[jfanning]

Remember when Nokia used to be an innovative company? Now they hope their back patent portfolio will somehow eek out profits from the companies who leapfrogged them at their own game. It's sad, really.

Going by the number of patents they (and NSN) are still filing, one would assume they still are innovative

 

[jfanning]

Nokia has floundered in the smart phone market for 14 years and couldn't get it right. The last four years of those 14 Nokia was up against Apple and couldn't get it right. Now since the smart phone market is where the growth is at, Nokia needs to get it right or become irrelevant except in the bottom end of the phone market where the profit per unit is really tiny.

You might want to check your dates, Nokia released the first smartphone in 2002, nine years ago. Where did you get 14 years from?

The 7650 was released in 2002, it supported multitasking, it had a camera, it took video, it supported 3rd party apps, it supported MMS, and custom ring tones, bluetooth file transfer. Apple stuggle to support any of those when they released a phone.

 

[jfanning]

It did not go unnoticed to me that Apple is suing one cell phone related company and Nokia is suing SEVEN!
Kodak is suing FIVE!
And FOUR companies are suing Apple and HTC hasn't even countersued Apple! RIM is suing TWO!

And why is Nokia Nokia sueing a lot of companies? Because of the illegal activities of other companies that were found guility in US courts

 

[aegisdesign]

Apple just needs to buy Nokia and then put them out of their misery.

As a Nokia phone user (I've 3 Nokia smartphones), prior to the Nokia/Microsoft deal I'd have said no as all that would happen is you'd replace Nokia's open platforms (Symbian / Maemo / MeeGo) with Apple's control-freakery and the phones would get more expensive with less features.

But that's what we get with Microsoft too.

 

[aegisdesign]

I think we can all agree that Nokia's meat and potatoes has been in dumb phones. They are present in the smart phone market, but this merger if you will with Windows is going to be their attempt to really recreate themselves in a market they were not very successful in.

That's ridiculous. Up until the last few months, Nokia has had the largest share in smartphones worldwide and has done for over a decade. At one point they had Microsoft Windows DESKTOP sized share of the smartphone market.

The Windows Phone move is an attempt to placate the US market where their smartphones never caught on and also in Europe where increasingly the iPhone and Android are taking over also as Nokia, through it's own stupid management has failed to update it's operating systems in a timely manner.

Personally, I think the Windows Phone move is a good move for the USA since it doesn't really matter and a ridiculously stupid move for the rest of the world where Nokia could have toughed it out for a couple more years improving Symbian and MeeGo with Qt as a development platform. Nobody in Europe really used Windows Mobile and I don't see anybody clamouring for Windows Phone either. Nokia's S40 OS is arguably more powerful than Windows Phone 7 and that's a feature phone OS.

 

[kdarling]

It did not go unnoticed to me that Apple is suing one cell phone related company and Nokia is suing SEVEN!

Apple is suing over smartphone details, and has comparatively little to sue over.

Nokia helped invent the basic cell phone. Huge difference.

No one could make a GSM phone without Nokia's patents.

Kodak is suing FIVE!
And FOUR companies are suing Apple and HTC hasn't even countersued Apple! RIM is suing TWO!

What do the most suing companies have in common?

DECLINING.

What else do they have in common? They're pioneers of the industry. They invented the very basic technology everyone else uses, not just the fluff on top. They heavily invested in the early days, while newcomers like Apple reap the benefits.

Apple is more popular right now partly because they had no legacy phones to stay compatible with, and could start with a blank UI and hardware slate. They skipped the hard parts. Doesn't mean they might not have to pay up for the privilege.

 

[sigma8]

Nokia's claims might be easier to believe if Apple made crappier products, like Nokia, which clearly demonstrated stolen IP. As it is, this is like a elementary school fingerpainter accusing Michelangelo of stealing his style.

 

[kdarling]

As an aside, a CNN article today about Patent Reform:

Senate passes patent bill, could create lots of jobs

The short form:

• Change to first to file system, instead of first to invent.
• Let the PTO decide its own fees; larger for harder patents.
• Staff up with new fees, and cut backlog in half.

 

[cmaier]

As an aside, a CNN article today about Patent Reform:

Senate passes patent bill, could create lots of jobs

The short form:

• Change to first to file system, instead of first to invent.
• Let the PTO decide its own fees; larger for harder patents.
• Staff up with new fees, and cut backlog in half.

Don't get too excited. They do this every couple of years and it never gets enacted.

By the way, while I get the "first to file" thing, it's a bad idea. It will lead to some very vague and crappy patents (yes, even more than now. Believe it or not, most patents actually are pretty specific and detailed now. But if I have to rush to the patent office, I'm going to write things up as fast as possible and dump it on them). It also hurts the little guy who doesn't have a team of patent agents at the ready.

 

[HyperZboy]

heya,

Man, you Mac fanbois are funny...lol.

I just bought my first Mac two weeks ago, and I'm liking the hardware. But the one thing that does turn me off is the rabid fanboism of the Apple community *sigh*. There are many lovely Apple afficandos out there, but it's the overly vocal minority that turns me off.

It's like the less they know, the louder they shout. I think this thread shows the level of immaturity and ignorance quite well.

Please people, instead of crawling out of your mother's basement to yell "Apple rules! Nokia Sucks!", can you please do some research.

Groklaw has a fairly nice issue on the writeup:

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20100828132209651

with an analysis by people probably far more qualified than you.

Nokia's patent complains are largely based on hardware - things like GSM, wireless radio transmission etc. Things that take billions of dollars of R&D, and that you can't really work around if you want to make say...gee...a cellular telephone?

Apple's patents are largely on nice, shiny things, and how certain user elements are arranged on the screen. Yes, they are a master of polish, and they're anally retentive and perfectionist in their products - but don't kid yourselves, it's much easier to work around these "patents" on the look and feel, than it is to make a phone that doesn't infringe on 20 years worth of RF and wireless technology.

And look - a smartphone is a mobile phone, kiddies. It's not some magicaly new device all on its own. At the end of the day, it has a radio transmitter, it connects to the GSM network. It's a cellphone, with PDA functionality built in, ok.

And Apple isn't litigious? What a joke? Apple is one of the more litigious tech companies out there. You compare them to Google, or IBM, or heck, even Microsoft recently, and they make them look like the Mother Teresa of patent generosity. Apple are as bad as Oracle, in my books.

Apple will sue anything left right and centre. Remember their patents on things like "multi-touch", or "touchscreen phones". What a joke. As I said above, I admire Apple (and I'm admiring my new Mac) for it's polish, and a good user experience.

But I'm an engineer by profession, and I don't underestimate how much more hard work it actually takes to create a robust, well-engineered phone that works...as a phone. The whole iPhone 4G antenna fiasco is a classic example - this was something that companies like Nokia, Motorola and RIM have figured out the hard way, with years and years of research and engineering - and it's something that Apple will hopefully catchup to.

Cheers,
victor

I'm not a fanboi. In fact, I've been called a Apple bashing troll here before.

But I have to say... Keep your day job. You're probably a better engineer than you are an analyst. As far as cell phones go...

Apple is suing HTC.

Nokia is suing SEVEN CELL PHONE MANUFACTURERS!

And Apple is counter-suing as a defense mechanism no doubt.

Apple is being sued by at least 4 companies related to cell phones.

 

[mr.mcgoo]

Just a little fun

I've no opinion one way or another, this is just how big business operates.

But I thought the attached photo seemed kind of apt for this thread.

 

[tmuller]

Patent Troll

My belief is that if you want to patent something, it has to be tangible. If you are doing nothing but writing patents on something you've never made, sorry bub, you lose out. Make a product and sell it, then your welcome to patent all day.

I'm tired with companies that just have a "business process" patent and think that it's something that they can get away with having. Where is the "product" that you sell to consumers? I don't see you offering your "business process" for sale, since it's your bread and butter, but I digress.

Build something that can be patented or quit filing patents, pretty easy.

In this context, Nokia had some great ideas, patented it, but never made a product that they sold to anyone or used in any of their products. My belief is it's an invalid patent.

 

[syc23]

Nokia should stick to making furniture. Wait..that's Ikea