Nokia Hits Back at Apple Again With New ITC Complaint

[addicted44]

Funny how people are still amazed Nokia is still around. Nokia sells more phones in 1 year than Apple has sold iOS devices PERIOD.

Nokia is making literally no money on those phones. There is a reason they essentially sold out to MSFT for $1Bn.

Apple sues people to high-hell and back, just as Nokia is doing now.

Outside of HTC, can you name 1 offensive patent lawsuit filed by Apple? The ones against Nokia were after, and in response to, Nokia's lawsuits against them.

Apple does send trademark infringement notices, but that is REQUIRED by tradermark law. Unlike patent law, where you can do nothing, but still retain your patent, you will lose your trademark if you don't actively defend it.

The patent market is a market for cross-licensing and screwing your competition, don't you all realize this just yet? This isn't a act of desperation for money per se, it is an act to hinder a big player.

Umm, and that is exactly what people are complaining about. The only time in the recent past Apple has done this was against HTC. The reasons there were quite simple. Google (Schmidt, who was sitting in iPhone meetings as Apple board member, in particular), literally stole their IP. But even that case is irrelevant to this issue, because this came after Nokia's patent claims were rejected.

Like I said earlier, I wasn't against Nokia's initial patent suit. That is the business. However, after their first round (and most promising) patent claims were rejected, this comes as nothing but sour grapes. If these patents were being violated by Apple, why didn't they include them in their initial round of suing? I may be wrong, but all signs point to Nokia saying... "MS just gave us $1Bn. Enough to harass and keep suing you, until you agree to give us some ransom money".

Edit: Nokia is particularly bad about these lawsuits...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/oct/08/mobile-lawsuits-visualisation-gathered

 

[nonameowns]

sigh can't wait for msokia to drop out of the phone business

 

[justperry]

Nokia, just focus on making a decent smart phone.

They make decent Phones (hardware) but the OS just suks

 

[gnasher729]

Nokia annual report and accounts;

Legal Expenses Budget €250 M.

R&D Budget €1 M - sorry R&D guys, spent all the money on lawyers.

I know you are joking, but Nokia's R&D budget is actually extremely high, much higher than Apple's. The problem is that somehow they manage to get nothing back for their huge investment.

 

[justperry]

this whole patent thing is really annoying. there should be NO patents.

Completely agree, who gives people the right to patent a name, like in "App store"

Well, not completely agree,but the way it is in the states just suks,patents should be used for inventions and start using them within the year (or 2) otherwise they lose the that very patent.

 

[blackburn]

Nokia again? Instead of building great phones (like they did a few years a go) they only build crap nowadays.
I'm not siding with apple, neither with nokia, but instead of patents why not innovate? Nobody cares about nokia nowadays, with android phones from 100 eur (no contract) they are toast.

 

[HyperZboy]

I've always thought all along that Apple was going to have to pay Nokia something or settle this simply because other cell phone manufacturers using similar technology have already settled with Nokia.

The question now is why has Apple been so stubborn? Do they know something we don't or are they risking the farm on this one?

With the Nokia/Microsoft deal in place, is it possible Nokia had no intention of ever settling with Apple like they did with other cell phone manufacturers? Hmm, makes me wonder.

And of course, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop which will be Apple filing another lawsuit against Nokia after losing the first round of their countersuit.

And anyone know what's going on with the Apple lawsuit against HTC? That could conceivably have broad implications on the entire Android OS itself and Google.

Now my final question would be, is it possible Apple could file suit against BOTH Microsoft and Nokia when the Windows Phone 7 Nokia phones come out? I mean, Steve Jobs said it himself that Apple had patented the iPhone to the hilt and intended to protect all those patents.

I somehow think this is all going to end up in a wash in the end and I just realized I've given myself a patented headache typing all this.

 

[MagnusVonMagnum]

There should be. However not left as vague things and they have to be used or lost. Why patent something if you have no intent of developing? It hinders progress.

Not everyone can afford to develop something. That doesn't mean their idea is worthless and they shouldn't patent it. OTOH, there are only so many ways of doing certain things and being able to patent "3 finger gestures" is flipping ridiculous, IMO. In fact, I think most software patents are ridiculous in that they just abstract ideas without any specific way to achieve them. Programming should mostly fall under copyright, not patents, IMO. Smart phone layouts patentable? UGH. You might as well just let someone patent a suit and tie.... It's ridiculous anymore. Small businesses generally don't stand a chance under litigation even when they're right because the big guy can drive them out of business with legal fees. The whole system sucks.

 

[Plutonius]

I would ask the same question. However, that's not how patent law works in the USA. Nokia doesn't have to spend their time/money watching other people's products, tearing them apart, and looking for patent infringement. All Nokia needs to do is SOME DAY realize their patent was infringed and then file a lawsuit. That's it.

True that they can do it but the original question remains. Why did Nokia wait until now before doing it ?

 

[triceretops]

Typical lawyers

Throw everything against the wall and see what sticks.

 

[justperry]

Not everyone can afford to develop something. That doesn't mean their idea is worthless and they shouldn't patent it. OTOH, there are only so many ways of doing certain things and being able to patent "3 finger gestures" is flipping ridiculous, IMO. In fact, I think most software patents are ridiculous in that they just abstract ideas without any specific way to achieve them. Programming should mostly fall under copyright, not patents, IMO. Smart phone layouts patentable? UGH. You might as well just let someone patent a suit and tie.... It's ridiculous anymore. Small businesses generally don't stand a chance under litigation even when they're right because the big guy can drive them out of business with legal fees. The whole system sucks.

I agree
That's why a system without any patents would be a lot better and fairer than it is now.
There shouldn't be such a system,things would be a lot cheaper.
I live in Asia most of the time where copies of many things are available,those people just can not afford those ridiculous 1st world prices.
Especially Songs,software are notorious for being so costly.

 

[Plutonius]

I've always thought all along that Apple was going to have to pay Nokia something or settle this simply because other cell phone manufacturers using similar technology have already settled with Nokia.

The question now is why has Apple been so stubborn? Do they know something we don't or are they risking the farm on this one?

With the Nokia/Microsoft deal in place, is it possible Nokia had no intention of ever settling with Apple like they did with other cell phone manufacturers? Hmm, makes me wonder.

And of course, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop which will be Apple filing another lawsuit against Nokia after losing the first round of their countersuit.

And anyone know what's going on with the Apple lawsuit against HTC? That could conceivably have broad implications on the entire Android OS itself and Google.

Now my final question would be, is it possible Apple could file suit against BOTH Microsoft and Nokia when the Windows Phone 7 Nokia phones come out? I mean, Steve Jobs said it himself that Apple had patented the iPhone to the hilt and intended to protect all those patents.

I somehow think this is all going to end up in a wash in the end and I just realized I've given myself a patented headache typing all this.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images.../bits-suepatent2/bits-suepatent2-blogSpan.jpg

As I remember when this first came out, Nokia wanted both money and access to Apple's patent portfolio. Apple did not want to give Nokia access to Apple's patent portfolio and wanted to pay Nokia less money (Note - Nokia wanted to get a percentage of each phone sold (lot of money for a smart phone) while Apple wanted to give a lesser fixed amount).

 

[RalfTheDog]

Completely agree, who gives people the right to patent a name, like in "App store"

Well, not completely agree,but the way it is in the states just suks,patents should be used for inventions and start using them within the year (or 2) otherwise they lose the that very patent.

You are confusing patents and trademarks.

Company and product names are trademarked. Books, movies, software, music, and things that are non tangible and can be copied are copyrighted.

New ways of making things are patented.

Trademarks last forever. Patents and (theoretically) copyrights last for a limited time. If you write a book or design a new water gun, you get the rights for a limited time. You get to keep the name of your company forever.

 

[pubwvj]

Nokia: the company that litigates instead of innovates.

 

[erzhik]

Maybe Nokia needs to change its slogan from "connecting people" to "suing Apple"

Or perhaps Nokia should create the next great thing instead of following Apple's footsteps? Oh that's right, they are now a Microsoft puppet OEM.



Exactly.

if you think Apple never sues anyone, you should check your facts again. Apple sues the crap out of everyone in return. Fact is, every company sues everybody. if you had as many patents as Nokia, you would be protecive too.

 

[rono174]

I used to be a huge fan of Nokia and owned alot of their phones. Everyday I lose more and more respect for the company because of news like this and their terrible phones they've been making.

 

[IconicM]

Only people (if you can call them that) making any money out of this are all those attorneys. Man, wish I was a Nokia attorney, they making some bucks these days.

 

[marksman]

The question begs:

Why didn't Nokia use any of these patents in their own phones?

 

[macrumorsMaster]

it is now gone. Why not just proudly go down and wish those who beat you...well.

Do you say the same to Apple about Hackintoshers?

 

[addicted44]

Do you say the same to Apple about Hackintoshers?

Hackintoshers beat Apple? I wish I was going down the way Apple has been the past few years.

That being said, this is absolutely within Nokia's prerogative. Its just amazing that it has come to this. What worries me, however, is that all this is being driven by MS, to protect MS's interests, rather than to protect Nokia's interests.

 

[victorhooi]

heya,

Man, you Mac fanbois are funny...lol.

I just bought my first Mac two weeks ago, and I'm liking the hardware. But the one thing that does turn me off is the rabid fanboism of the Apple community *sigh*. There are many lovely Apple afficandos out there, but it's the overly vocal minority that turns me off.

It's like the less they know, the louder they shout. I think this thread shows the level of immaturity and ignorance quite well.

Please people, instead of crawling out of your mother's basement to yell "Apple rules! Nokia Sucks!", can you please do some research.

Groklaw has a fairly nice issue on the writeup:

http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20100828132209651

with an analysis by people probably far more qualified than you.

Nokia's patent complains are largely based on hardware - things like GSM, wireless radio transmission etc. Things that take billions of dollars of R&D, and that you can't really work around if you want to make say...gee...a cellular telephone?

Apple's patents are largely on nice, shiny things, and how certain user elements are arranged on the screen. Yes, they are a master of polish, and they're anally retentive and perfectionist in their products - but don't kid yourselves, it's much easier to work around these "patents" on the look and feel, than it is to make a phone that doesn't infringe on 20 years worth of RF and wireless technology.

And look - a smartphone is a mobile phone, kiddies. It's not some magicaly new device all on its own. At the end of the day, it has a radio transmitter, it connects to the GSM network. It's a cellphone, with PDA functionality built in, ok.

And Apple isn't litigious? What a joke? Apple is one of the more litigious tech companies out there. You compare them to Google, or IBM, or heck, even Microsoft recently, and they make them look like the Mother Teresa of patent generosity. Apple are as bad as Oracle, in my books.

Apple will sue anything left right and centre. Remember their patents on things like "multi-touch", or "touchscreen phones". What a joke. As I said above, I admire Apple (and I'm admiring my new Mac) for it's polish, and a good user experience.

But I'm an engineer by profession, and I don't underestimate how much more hard work it actually takes to create a robust, well-engineered phone that works...as a phone. The whole iPhone 4G antenna fiasco is a classic example - this was something that companies like Nokia, Motorola and RIM have figured out the hard way, with years and years of research and engineering - and it's something that Apple will hopefully catchup to.

Cheers,
victor

 

[iliketyla]

It just blows my mind every time something like this happens how many people have ridiculous blanket statements, or advice for companies that make more money than the majority of us can even fathom.

Or how they completely discredit companies that have been major players in their respective markets for decades.

Can anyone in this forum really say they've accomplished more than Nokia has as a company?

If so, by all means please step forward and impart some knowledge upon us.

 

[SiPat]

The day the iPhone was introduced, the Smartphone Market became an iPhone-alike Market, and to produce an iPhone-alike phone, you need access to Apple's patents. That's what Nokia is after, or else it's dead. Making-out with Microsoft doesn't give Nokia everything it needs, and leaves it open to litigation: they say that attack is the best form of defence, so Nokia is just doing what it thinks it needs to do to survive.

I have relatives living in various 3rd-world countries, and even the less-well-off wouldn't buy a 3GS, but they are willing to pay top dollar (or the local eq) for the iPhone4.

Tanker-loads of Nokia faithful are dumping their Nokia phones for iPhones and Blackberrys -- even Android has a long fight ahead of it in these (non-geek/techy) markets.

 

[kdarling]

True that they can do it but the original question remains. Why did Nokia wait until now before doing it ?

Who knows.

Why did Apple take two years before they sued HTC? Did it take them that long to figure it out? Did they wait until HTC became a threat? All of the above?

Now my final question would be, is it possible Apple could file suit against BOTH Microsoft and Nokia when the Windows Phone 7 Nokia phones come out? I mean, Steve Jobs said it himself that Apple had patented the iPhone to the hilt and intended to protect all those patents.

Jobs is a showman, not an engineer. Many of his remarks should not be taken at face value.

There's not a lot in the iPhone that's patented by Apple. I can think of about four "major" items offhand: their particular touchscreen position decoder, their slot antenna using the case trim, their way of implementing a scrolling direction lock, and their way of doing a bounce at the end of a page. Oh, and their way of doing a slide-to-unlock.

You can certainly make a nice smartphone without any of the above. I cannot think of a way for Apple to make a GSM phone without using GSM patents.

As I remember when this first came out, Nokia wanted both money and access to Apple's patent portfolio. Apple did not want to give Nokia access to Apple's patent portfolio and wanted to pay Nokia less money (Note - Nokia wanted to get a percentage of each phone sold (lot of money for a smart phone) while Apple wanted to give a lesser fixed amount).

The original royalty for GSM phones was a percentage of the retail price. The GSM inventors came up with that plan as a way of promoting phones that everyone in the world could afford. (Something that Apple isn't at all interested in. They just want to use the technology and infrastructure that other companies spent billions on, to make their own billions in high profits.)

Many companies also shared a patent pool, and those that did got a better royalty deal of course.

Nokia offered royalty plans both with and without patent sharing. However, Apple doesn't like to share patents, and they felt that all the proposed payments were too high.

So Nokia has asked a jury in Delaware to decide the amount. You can't get much more fair than that.

 

[iliketyla]

The day the iPhone was introduced, the Smartphone Market became an iPhone-alike Market, and to produce an iPhone-alike phone, you need access to Apple's patents. That's what Nokia is after, or else it's dead. Making-out with Microsoft doesn't give Nokia everything it needs, and leaves it open to litigation: they say that attack is the best form of defence, so Nokia is just doing what it thinks it needs to do to survive.

I have relatives living in various 3rd-world countries, and even the less-well-off wouldn't buy a 3GS, but they are willing to pay top dollar (or the local eq) for the iPhone4.

Tanker-loads of Nokia faithful are dumping their Nokia phones for iPhones and Blackberrys -- even Android has a long fight ahead of it in these (non-geek/techy) markets.

Any credibility you had went out the window when you blatantly revealed your bias in the first sentence.