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I currently have 5.38 GB of Applications on my iPhone.

It would not be an exaggeration to say that it would be necessary to compromise the amount of apps that I store, if they were to be restricted to a storage of 256MB.

If the 16 MB heap restriction bears little impact for most current app development, than so be it.

However, a 256MB restriction would seem to be a crippling one, for many.

:rolleyes:

Did you read my post ? You can't compare your 5.38 GB of apps to Android's 256 MB limit. Go back and read. Better yet, let's do an example. A fairly small on data app (few sprites and that's it), MacBill (which is a xBill rewritten to Cocoa) takes up 1.3M as an app bundle on the system :

$ du -sh MacBill.app/
1.3M MacBill.app/

However, if we look at its executable file only and skip all the ressources in the bundle, it takes up less than half of that :

$ ls -alh MacBill
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root admin 656K 23 Jan 2002 MacBill

So half of this "App" is actually data and other files not related to the executable. In essence, this would use 656K of the 256 MB, not 1.3MB. And this app is very light on ressources. Most games of higher complexity have much higher ressource count (music/sound, textures, backgrounds) that can be shipped off to the flash card and not the App storage memory.

Get it now ? Not as big an issue as some would make you think.
 
Yes, I understood that.

Less than half of 5.38GB will fall within the 265MB range?

Doubtful.

Again, you fail to read my post. Macbill is a very low ressource game. It has I think at most 15 sprites in the 64x64 pixel range. Uncompressed bitmap data at 8 bit per channel RGBA would account for only 245KB of storage in that app.

Most apps have way more data than code. Especially those games you like tout so much as taking up a lot of space.

Now please stop selectively quoting because you're starting to sound like all those blogs that exagerate this problem beyond what it is.

The iPod was not an amazing and wonderful new MP3 player that knocked the socks off the rest of the MP3 market.

That is very much wrong. The only problem is Apple introduced a major flaw into the original iPod : It needed a Mac.
 
Yes, I understood that.

Less than half of 5.38GB will fall within the 265MB range?

Doubtful.

Look inside your average .app bundle. The executable (the file in the MacOS subfolder) is tiny. For example, iCal is an 80+Mb bundle with a 4.4Mb executable. Preview.app is 70Mb, with a 1.8Mb executable (these are PPC numbers). If you can separate the resources from the executable, the 256Mb limit does not seem that unreasonable.
 
Again, you fail to read my post. Macbill is a very low ressource game. It has I think at most 15 sprites in the 64x64 pixel range. Uncompressed bitmap data at 8 bit per channel RGBA would account for only 245KB of storage in that app.

Most apps have way more data than code. Especially those games you like tout so much as taking up a lot of space.

Now please stop selectively quoting because you're starting to sound like all those blogs that exagerate this problem beyond what it is.

Why would you assume that I use low resource apps such as Macbill?

These games alone: Spore Origins, X-Plane 9, Cro-Mag Rally, Super Monkey Ball, 3-D Vector Ball, World Cup Table Tennis, etc. utilize significantly more memory resources than MacBill does.
 
That is very much wrong. The only problem is Apple introduced a major flaw into the original iPod : It needed a Mac.

The needing-a-Mac part of the original iPod was a double-edged sword. Apple was leveraging the acolytes to attain coolness and gauge the market, but the one thing that really set the iPod apart was iTunes (then still years from reaching PCs). Other than that, the first iPod was fairly middling in the MP3 player market.
 
Why would you assume that I use low resource apps such as Macbill?

These games alone: Spore Origins, X-Plane 9, Cro-Mag Rally, Super Monkey Ball, 3-D Vector Ball, World Cup Table Tennis, etc. utilize significantly more memory resources than MacBill does.

You're confusing memory and storage ressources. The fact is, Macbill has few ressources (the Ressource sub-directory under Contents in a NSBundle).

Your games are good examples of things that will have a small executable and 30 to 50 times more storage dedicated to data. It proves my point exactly, that the 256 MB of executable storage is a non-issue. It's data that takes room and this goes on the big flash card in the phone, not the application storage.

And all those things probably won't use 16 MB of heap. We have applications at work that do thousands of user sessions with in-memory caching of database requests and don't use that much heap (they run in JVMs so we get to play with heap allocation if the users start encountering Outofmemory exceptions).
 
Not quite the same situation. I think this is why Apple is not commenting and probably not putting much effort in a tablet. Usually, Apple waits for a market to be successful, then releases a good product into it. With its brand, good design and integration, it then makes some good money off of it. If there's no money to be made in the first place, you end up with things like AppleTV or the Macbook Air.

They might have done this in the past, but why wait if there is an obvious market out there? And why not create a market? Just because they haven't done so in the past doesn't necessarily mean that they won't do it in this case.

I still think that "where there is smoke, there is fire".
 
You seem to be doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of. No my experience is based not on my small circle, but on a very big observation of the market at the time.

Also, if your family waited for Video iPods this shows me that you bore no interest for the platform until it was very much the defacto standard in the industry for portable music playback. You could barely find a portable CD player by the time Apple shipped the iPod video.

And horrid experience ? All the MP3 players before the iPod were simply flash memory devices. Plug it in with a USB cable, drag and drop songs on it, eject and voila. This makes me think you don't actually have any good recollection of the period of time before the initial iPod release.

Much less horrid than an iTune sync gone completely wrong which ends up erasing music you had on your iPod because you removed it from your library without thinking. Yes I know you can change that behavior, but it is iTunes' default behavior.
Actually, i regularly see people - adults AND kids still using them around where i live. And was at Target a few weeks ago when someone was wanting to BUY one of them. Go figure.

I lived a few hours north of Los Angeles, we were a pretty "hip" area for access to technology - but MP3 players were not the norm at all 6 years ago there.

And nope, that experience remains horrid - and not for lack of trying and knowledge (I was a VMS & NT System Admin at the time). I still have the piece of garbage somewhere - i found it in a box not that long ago. Maybe i'm projecting my disdain for the device on the garbage software it required - regardless, it didn't get used after the speech, and all i could think of was gee, what is so special about this?

How popular technology is varies in certain regions - less so today with the internet and marketing crap, but it's still there. It's right up there with someone claiming AT&T doesn't suck for anyone because it's perfect in their area. Take that example - when i worked at Best Buy, they didn't sell, only AT&T & Cingular. Big problem with that... their was no AT&T or Cingular Service where the new store was opening.... they got Verizon for us.

Heck, i'm surrounded also on a weekly basis by people that don't have a COMPUTER at home, let alone the internet. Welcome to "rural" America. My own "soon to be ex"-husband would be happy if there was not internet access in the house. He sees no need for it or computers....

One area, especially if it's in a "big city" doesn't not in anyway mirror the demographics of other areas.....
 
Just another validation that Apple is driving the market towards new innovation of what the customers want. No other companies would have invested into something like this if they wasn't hell-bent on disrupting the Apple's juggernaut that's been rolling along ever since the late 90's.

Nice preemptive strike, though. :rolleyes: Now lets see it come to market and sustain its share of it. Because if it doesn't...

... "another one bites the dust.":cool:
 
Fixed that for you.



Except for the fact that there are dozens of tablets already on the market. Guess why you never see anyone around with them.

Exactly! Tablets have been around for years but no one really uses them. An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone. And, although the iPhone and an apple tablet are pretty good mobile computing devices, we all know that there are a lot of times where you really just need a full on mac.

Besides I prefer my comps. with a mouse and keyboard anyway.
 
Exactly! Tablets have been around for years but no one really uses them. An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone. And, although the iPhone and an apple tablet are pretty good mobile computing devices, we all know that there are a lot of times where you really just need a full on mac.

Besides I prefer my comps. with a mouse and keyboard anyway.

My Dad actually uses his HP one. He is limited to how long he can sit at the computer for medical reasons. The tablet and stylus let him do some things outside of that 15-20 minutes a day. He has replaced a lot of that with his Touch though in recent months.

His desk time is spent at his MacPro. :D
 
Pen Option

If the Apple tablet comes with a pen option, it will be a winner. Everybody loves the Wacom products. I'm not sure it has to have handwriting recognition, but it would probably be there.

When I read I want to annotate. When I go to a meeting I want to take a few notes. And who doesn't have the need to doodle.
 
Exactly! Tablets have been around for years but no one really uses them. An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone. And, although the iPhone and an apple tablet are pretty good mobile computing devices, we all know that there are a lot of times where you really just need a full on mac.

Besides I prefer my comps. with a mouse and keyboard anyway.

Didn't think I would be the one to bring this up, but we have the same situation here as with smartphones. Because there is no universally agreed definition of what a tablet is, we continue to make comparisons that are only partly valid.

The "tablets" that you mentioned have been around for years have largely been resistive touchscreen enabled laptops with a swivel screen. No adaptations to the software at all. No surprise that those things haven't caught on.

To me the definition of a tablet would be: "a device with a touchscreen over 8" that lacks a keyboard and is equipped for complicated computing and multimedia tasks". Although that last part is not really measurable, I entered it to keep the Kindles and Nooks out of the equation, which IMHO are definitely NOT tablets. But that's just my private definition of a tablet.
 
The "tablets" that you mentioned have been around for years have largely been resistive touchscreen enabled laptops with a swivel screen. No adaptations to the software at all. No surprise that those things haven't caught on.

Au contraire. Having (unwillingly) purchased two of those windows "convertibles" things for my wife, I can tell you there were software adaptations. Crappy ones.
 
Exactly! Tablets have been around for years but no one really uses them. An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone. And, although the iPhone and an apple tablet are pretty good mobile computing devices, we all know that there are a lot of times where you really just need a full on mac.

Besides I prefer my comps. with a mouse and keyboard anyway.


Too right, but nobody is listening to the vast artists market that would comprise the most logical use of a tablet. Except maybe - hopefully! - Apple?

Even the lack of pressure sensitvity/stylus input could be worked around with gestures, especially if two-handed gestures were supported. Imagine finger painting with gestures, or 3d sculpting with gestures! Combined with the ability to work anywhere you want; every artist in the world would want one of these.
 
Your memory is very selective. Apple waited until the 128MB devices were common before entering the market, which was quite some time after the products first emerged.

They were in high demand at the time and already had dedicated sections at places like Best Buy, Circuit City and Fry's. Those were also the days of Napster going unpunished and everyone being on it to share mp3s freely.

Those players were flying off store shelves when Apple first launched the iPod, much to the chagrin of non-Mac owners when they found out you needed a Mac to use them.

I remember the time frame.

Geeks loved MP3 players. I had one. And in Silicon Valley, you could tell the geeks from the "just happen to live here"s by who had a CD player vs an MP3 player.

Until Apple had iPods and iTunes, MP3 players were a geek toy, not a mass market toy. With non-geeks, and the further you got from computer centric places, MP3 players weren't "in" yet. They were selling well to geeks, yes. But not to non-geeks.
 
Except for the fact that there are dozens of tablets already on the market. Guess why you never see anyone around with them.

Niche market, with little (not "no", but "little") software optimization for the devices, so far. That basically eliminates them from anybody other than geeks and gadget-heads. That's one of the reasons I consider Android a decent platform for tablets -- it's already well designed around touch screens, rotatable screens, etc., it's usable by non-techies, and has a decent application eco-system.

Another reason: Up until recently, tablets were UMPC based. Which means "more expensive", not less. Netbook convertible tablets and atom tablets, which bring the cost down, are a little more recent, but they're all marketed by minor players, and not well marketed within the US. They're a techie niche, still.

But, why run Ubuntu, or Windows XP, on a tablet, if it's not going to give you a meaningful tablet experience. UMPC tablets just about all had thumb keyboards on them, because they didn't have decent touch screen UI's that obsoleted the thumb keyboard. That's why the netbook finally took off, it fixed both the problems with an UMPC: lower cost, and didn't require specialized versions of OSes, because it was a notebook type format instead of a tablet format.

Windows 7 is supposed to be better (I keep hearing from Mac friends, who can't wait any longer for a netbook, that it's a decent platform, and that MS is finally "getting it" with various aspects of things). But, I'm not interested in going in that direction. Android, Mac OS X, or Maemo are the only things I'm interested in seeing on a mid-range tablet right now. If Ubuntu fixes some UI issues (and becomes more like Maemo), then it could work on a tablet. But that's the extent of my OS interests on tablets right now.


Exactly! Tablets have been around for years but no one really uses them. An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone. And, although the iPhone and an apple tablet are pretty good mobile computing devices, we all know that there are a lot of times where you really just need a full on mac.

Besides I prefer my comps. with a mouse and keyboard anyway.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that an Apple Tablet, even running Mac OS X instead of iPhone OS X, would replace a full on Mac. What it would do is give you a bigger screen than an iPhone, for doing bigger tasks. My phone or pocketable is really too small for decent note taking. Even with an external keyboard, the screen doesn't display enough information to give you a decent font size + text area to read enough of your notes to know if you've missed something ... or to scan back to remember context if you paused in your note taking for a second (or if you switched over to a drawing app, or to the camera, to capture a drawing).

Pocketables just aren't up to the task of being your entire mobile device. That's why it's laughable when people say "the iPhone is Apple's netbook". It's not the software that matters here, it's the range of input and output. The iPhone's screen isn't big enough, and it doesn't support external keyboards. It's even a limitation for a Nokia NIT (N800 or N810), which has a bigger, higher resolution, screen than an iPhone/iPodTouch. It did everything I wanted, software wise, but I needed a bigger screen in many meeting situations.

One of the reasons I'm leery of an iPhone based iTablet is ... that lack of keyboard and external display support. Like you said, sometimes you need a full size display and a full size keyboard. The Notion Ink and the EnTourage eDGe both give you the option for external keyboards. And the Notion Ink says it'll have external display support, as well. That should make it easily go from (and be usable at all of) my bus and train ride to work, to the meeting room (with my USB keyboard), to my desk at work (on my KVM switch, shared with my mac), back to the bus and train ride home, and to my desk at home (on my KVM switch, shared with an older iMac and a newer Ubuntu nettop). I can use it as a tablet on the bus, train, or on my couch. I can use it as a display with an external keyboard at a meeting (or at a table, etc.). I can use it for my lighter weight tasks at my desk.

Certainly, Apple could fix the iPhone platform, giving it external keyboard and display support, for an iTablet. And they'd need to, in order to interest me. (and they'd also have to fix that "can't bypass the app store" limitation, as well)

Anyway ... I don't see tablets as fitting your "either or" view of things. It's not "EITHER a tablet with a small screen with no keyboard OR a desktop machine with big screen and keyboard". A properly designed mid-range tablet will be able to do both. Any tablet that can't do both, is insufficiently designed. The difference between a tablet and a desktop should be "where you'd use it" and "that you'd only use the tablet for less-horsepower tasks, due to having fewer cpu/ram/power resources".
 
Oh, and:

An apple Tablet would just be a bigger iPhone.

Not if it wants to succeed.

It's going to need to be a "bigger" iPod Touch/iPhone* and a Mac-mini** and a decent e-reader and bring something new to the e-reader market***. Those are the things that Apple will need to bring to the table, and to pull the mid-range tablet into the non-techie markets.


(* media player, finger friendly gui, navigation, and game "console"; 3G is "optional", IMO ... and telephony would be doable, but odd ... so it's really "bigger iPod Touch", not "bigger iPhone")

(** flexible, general purpose, computer with connectors for storage, input devices, displays, etc. ... as well as a non-regulated application eco-system; and by "general purpose", I not only mean "general utility", also mean "able to be taken in directions outside of Apple's vision" ... they seem to be unwilling to allow that to happen with the iPhone/iPod-Touch)

(*** the deals to re-vitalize old-school media/news publishers is a good start; I'd suggest that they add in subscription based media as well; so that means newspapers and magazines, stream&cache recent/current tv shows, and stream&cache music)
 
One of the reasons I'm leery of an iPhone based iTablet is ... that lack of keyboard and external display support. Like you said, sometimes you need a full size display and a full size keyboard.

You're exactly right. what would be cool to see would be a tablet with a slide-out keyboard underneath. Like a slider phone. I've actually seen an artist's rendering on this. Obviously there might be some difficulties in development and keeping prices down. If anyone could Apple could.

However, I still don't see this tablet appealing to a wide market. Obviously it would be useful in a business and art setting but I don't see a huge market here. I'm not sure Apple will really push for this because it's more of a specialized market. I know I wouldn't get one. It's cool but I'm waiting for my Mac Pro.
 
You're exactly right. what would be cool to see would be a tablet with a slide-out keyboard underneath. Like a slider phone. I've actually seen an artist's rendering on this. Obviously there might be some difficulties in development and keeping prices down. If anyone could Apple could.

The whole point of a tablet is that it has no keyboard. If you want a keyboard in a thin formfactor and external display support, than likely candidates would be the MacBook Air or Dell Adamo. In addition, how do you know that there would not be external display support for an Apple Tablet? We have never seen the thing if it exists at all..

However, I still don't see this tablet appealing to a wide market. Obviously it would be useful in a business and art setting but I don't see a huge market here. I'm not sure Apple will really push for this because it's more of a specialized market. I know I wouldn't get one. It's cool but I'm waiting for my Mac Pro.

It doesn't need to appeal to a wider market. I don't see that many people with 17" MBP's or two screen laptops like the IBM one. The fact that many manufacturers have already tablets on the market and the fact that everyone on Engadget, Gizmodo and here goes wild about these things is enough proof that at least a market outside of the art and medical sectors exists.

In addition, I still thin the Netbook and tablet markets overlap to a great extent. Many people use their netbook only for a little surfing in hotel rooms, watching a movie on a plane and answering emails while waiting for the bus. All these things would and should be possible on a tablet that would have a slimmer form factor than a netbook. Imagine an e-reader functionality that goes beyond books and extends into magazines and we would have a winner product that would be able to tap into multiple existing markets.
 
Tablets haven't caught on yet for the same reason many successful types of products were initially a niche product: The technology to make them truly appealing to a mass market just hasn't been there.

I would love to have a tablet computer, but the currently available models are simply not good enough. They still have to become thinner, lighter, more capable, while at the same time having longer battery life. They need to get better touch technology that feels completely natural for both finger and stylus input while hardly affecting display quality. They need better displays: sunlight-readable, fast refreshing, full color, good viewing angle. They need a UI that is made specifically for tablets. And to make it a success, developers need to be willing to write software for it.

Given the current progress I have no doubt tablets will become a big thing in the next few years, possibly next year already. They have tremendous potential, for example as a replacement for paper – not just books, magazines, and newspapers, but also notepads/sketchpads, journals, etc.

It's just a question of when not if. And I wouldn't be totally surprised if research into new input methods meant that keyboards would become a thing of the past for a large part of the population. Most people never properly learned to type anyway.
 
Don't think of any possible Apple tablet in isolation -- that is, that it will just another computer doing the usual things -- like the MacBook Air. A lot of other companies are lining up to support the tablet.

From the perspective of the media world, new usable tablets (or readers) will be necessary if there is going to be a true alternative to print. A tablet makes sense because few people want to buy a reader just to read books or magazines. Such devices add too much cost to what would normally be an insignificant purchase (a book costs a couple of bucks and does not need a "device" -- while a Kindle may make reading easier because it can store multiple publications, it still adds a significant cost to the equation).

Additionally, the traditional magazine is going to evolve into the multimedia magazine in a way many visualized a few years ago. Remember when it was all the rage to include a CD with the magazine? At first this had a certain "cool" factor, but it petered out because of the cost (in the end, the cost was put on the backs of the advertisers who often had demos included on the CD).

I doubt tablets and readers will kill off the traditional magazine completely -- print is still a very useful vehicle and is, of course, very reader friendly. But big publishers like Hearst, Condè Nast and others are betting that people will adopt the tablet the way they took to the smart phone. (Phones have a couple killer apps like texting, so I can see why people may think tablets need a new killer app, as well. Publishers are hoping that reading their products will be the killer app -- I have my doubts about that, though.)

2010 may well be the year of the tablet the way 2007 (and 2008 and 2009) was the year of the smart phone. But, of course, we'll see . . .
 
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