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Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by AkuskaUK, May 7, 2016.
You really need to stop with this. This might be your guess as to why there are no Pascal drivers yet, but you're stating it as if it's a well-know fact (which it simply is not). Unless of course you've spoken with whatever senior executives at NVIDIA who decide if and when to support macOS via the web driver? Static versus Dynamic Scheduling only applies to asynchronous compute, which no macOS API exposes (it's only available in DX12 and Vulkan). So, given the lack of real async compute in Metal, I find it hard to believe that this would be a gating factor. And, even if it was, they could very easily just not use that new hardware feature and still have a perfectly functional set of OpenGL, OpenCL and Metal drivers for macOS.
My guess? I'd be extremely surprised if there weren't Pascal drivers already done internally at NVIDIA. Driver development typically happens in the years leading up to a product release, not after the GPU comes back from the fab. So, they were probably basically done a long time ago. The question becomes, why haven't they released those drivers yet? My original thought was that they were waiting for the release of 10.12, but that has come and gone. So, there's obviously something else holding up the release. You and I will probably never know what is going on, so when we share our opinions, it would be best to state them as exactly that -- our opinions, not verified facts.
I still hope that NVIDIA will release drivers for Pascal, or even better, that Apple switches back to NVIDIA for their next set of product refreshes. We'll see.
I have connections inside of NVidia. I know for a fact that the CEO had the mac drivers printed with a dot matrix printer onto 1,000 spools (which took several weeks and was very loud), deleted all digital copies, and set them ablaze while reciting from the Necronomicon.
Also, there's a new mac pro announcement in November December. It will have Dual Titan X(P)s and will not boot into OS X as a result.
Now those are some facts I can believe in, yep.
Dynamic Scheduling is not only for Asynchronous Compute. You should've know that, Asgo.
Look at the situation from the other way around. And the contrast between Dynamic and static Scheduling.
And yes, you are correct those are my opinions only. But it always up to the reader to decide whether he will perceive what is written as a fact or as an opinion. Intelligent people are able to determine where the line for this is. Don't ya think?
Join in the requests for Pascal Mac drivers here:
One thing could eventually make Nvidia release new drivers for MacOS with Pascal support.
It making Metal work properly on Nvidia hardware, with decent level of reliability, as it will be the go-to API on MacOS ecosystem.
Don't think it will happen. They need to pay a bunch of coders several hundred bucks a day each to maintain a driver that only a few Mac users in the world would be using. We see from the job ads that they can't keep their Mac coders for more than a few months because there is no long term prospects currently. Next year Nvidia could finally drop tech support for official Nvidia for Mac cards (it's five years since Kepler) and then that's it. Finished.
I don't understand why people can't grasp your points. Why support pascal for a bunch of machines that have reached EOL or will reach EOL in the coming year. There is no current Apple device using Nvidia parts therefor they have no need to provide drivers. However, it would certainly be nice of them to do so, but they have ZERO incentive. If they decide to support Hackintosh and Dinosaurs, then they should definitely be praised for such a charitable contribution to the hobbyists and those hanging on to EOL computers.
^^^Most, not all, but most of us certainly do understand. I have a flashed Kepler GTX 780, with the GK110A chip. therefore everything works, even with the Apple drivers. I'd love a GTX 1080, but I completely understand that it may not be in the cards. But, let's keep a GOOD thought, and hope otherwise. SoyBoy has made many many predications in the past and most of them have turned out false. I sincerely hope he's wrong again, but who knows.
You are completely wrong. Dynamic and Static Scheduling are to enable the simultaneous execution of compute and graphics shaders. Again, back to the AnandTech article:
Maxwell's static partitioning:
Pascal's dynamic partitioning:
What's the common thread here? That both compute and graphics are being executed in parallel, with the latter repartitioning the resources to fill in the unused SMs with compute work once the graphics shader finished. Neither model applies to Metal, as it lacks the low-level synchronization primitives like GPU fences that DX12 and Vulkan have that allows for pairing of specific graphics and compute work across multiple command queues.
Async compute allows a compute shader that would only take up a small fraction of the SMs to run in parallel with other graphics work. The Pascal implementation is much better about adjusting the balance between compute and graphics, depending on the workload. In a synchronous execution model like Metal, this is all moot as one command encoder must be completed before moving onto the next one.
In the past they've actually done this, I remember that the Nvidia installer automatically added the necessary boot flag to the boot.plist back in Chimera/Chameleon boot loader times.
Yes, that's very little affort compared to developing a new driver, but they're definitely aware about Hackintoshs and the community isn't that small.
And of course the usuall PC gaming market is far bigger, but I'm pretty sure the expenses for developing & releasing a OS X driver would still pay back quickly. I don't think it needs more than one or two developers to make an unsupported beta driver, which can contain one or the other bug, which could easily be payed by selling a few additional 1080's (which would definitely happen, just have a look at the "Buying advice" and "Graphics" sections @ tmx86).
But as others have said, I don't think this is the issue. It's way more likely that Apple prevents them from supporting the Hackintosh community more than necessary.
They did exactly that for Maxwell, so I don't think people's hope for Pascal drivers is completely baseless.
I could easily believe that there will never be Pascal drivers, but I can also believe that Pascal drivers will be provided on the same beta-basis as Maxwell. Neither of these two scenarios seems impossible to me.
Yeah and so, what else is new
I'm building a hack since my 2,1 is finally, finally EOL. Obviously want a 1080 in it for workflow and as I plan to game a lot in Windows... so I thought I'd ask the man himself, Jensen Huang... turns out he's a really nice guy, although the news isn't too good...
That Jensen Huang response is really tale-telling. I mean folks who would bother reading this particular subforum must be familiar with the "Pro Macs" situation and we each have our own theory on it. But getting a direct answer from the nVidia boss really affirms a lot of it. I mean if they weren't so embarrassingly helpless, he wouldn't feel the need to answer so frankly and timely.
Apple had build such an amazing platform and the current decision makers don't seem to realize they have been throwing this away. What are they even seeing in the future of computing or digital lifestyle, and what are they even planning to do in that ridiculous new campus of theirs.
He's really down to earth. That's awesome. I know it's not a big money maker for them most likely, but I hope they can find the willpower to keep Mac support going.
I wrote about the Hack and cMP communities in my first email to him. Said how he could make a few people very happy and maybe sell more Pascal cards. Didn't seriously expect a reply!
He struck me as someone who would really like to help, but who is deeply frustrated with Apple. Guess he can join the Mac Pro club! Top guy.
I would be surprised if Mac Pascal drivers ever happen. Good luck with that.
Thanks for emailing Jensen. I think coming from the top is good to know.
Apple really pooped it. I think the last time they had a relationship with nVidia was with the 2014 rMBP.
Wouldn't it be wonderful for Apple to give a choice between nVidia and AMD GPUs in BTO iMacs and Mac Pros? I don't care if the 2016 MBP is AMD only, just as long as the iMacs and nMPs have AMD and nVidia options available.
Put it this way, given I'd had a bit of success with Jensen, I thought I'd email Tim Cook. No reply.
I've actually gotten calls within hours from Apple after I emailed Tim, so there is hope.
The situation is getting ridiculous - was re-reading how Tim travels with an iPad, an iPhone, and probably that stupid, ugly iWatch... wow, I wish I didn't have to do anything but read emails and check my pulse.
You know Apple uses the word 'ecosystem' for their products and services, but it is beginning to look like a pretty sparse ecosystem. It used to be all my needs could be met by Apple, but they are focused on iToys. My main machine is a 12 core Mac Pro. That's the hub for me (and for many others), if my hub changes because I am forced to another platform, then out goes the ecosystem. I guess angering your core supporters is 'courage.'
Tim Cook has an incredibly narrow view compared to Steve - he is making a fashion line. And as I've said before, fashions change, and they can change really fast.
Not smart at all.
Though I see from a theoretical standpoint how dropping the pro machine, even if it's a lot less popular, could have a lot of ripple effects, I also think Apple probably knows what they're doing in terms of marketing. With all the data they collect I'm sure they have a great idea who owns what, like the grocery store that sells the awful cheese because the buyers of the cheese dump a boatload on other stuff. This is not a new concept. I think therefore in net, it wont be a bad deal for them not because I have any special knowledge, but because I bet they know.
Perhaps everyone who needs a powerful machine has switched to Windows? Maybe Apple could give a crap about that market.
It's like when they dropped the headphone port on the iphone 7--I bet they know EXACTLY how many iphone users actually ever use their headphone port. My initial reaction is that this is a bad move, but I figure they know more than me what their customers are doing. They probably wont lose a ton of business as a result even though I personally find it annoying as heck and will not be buying a 7 as a result.
I don't know what apple's plans are, but I do know that a lot of people who do "pro" work are buying supped-up Macbook Pros at AN INSANE price premium. The guy I talked to at the Apple store last night said he dropped $4500 on a Macbook Pro even though he rarely unplugs it from his monitor at home (WHAT THE ACTUAL ****???). If you look at reviews of the 2016 macbook pro you see this literally all over youtube--people who don't even need mobility are buying it and throwing it on their desk. Apple is making a killing getting people paying >$4000 for power and space and expandability comparable to a $500 machine.
I agree with your thesis for the most part - but what I really see is that they think they know.
It could also be hubris and delusion.
All companies know - until they don't and are wrong. If companies were perfect in market research there would never be a failed company - and all companies drop to 2nd or 3rd eventually, or die, or even bounce after collapse. Look at motorola, nokia, polaroid, etc. the list is very long.
I know this, the features on my iPhone and iPad are not special - they used to be once. There is not that much of a difference in interface with other makers now. Apple had us by covering all of our tech bases (mostly). So to lose that wide net may end up netting them 3rd place. It would cost them very little to maintain that edge right now while they are on top, they would still make a profit on a Mac Pro, it would pay for itself. Mac Mini - profit. High end laptop - profit. Even airport extreme pulls some money. Why dump money makers when it fills your ecosystem? That's stupid.
What I see very clearly is short sightedness on a grand scale. Tim is in a bubble with Jony and the delusional thinkers from the entertainment biz. He's lost the plot. He thinks he's a superstar. They've lost their minds in ego.
The hard truth: Apple has inertia - but only for a few more years. The gap on smart devices is closing rapidly. If they don't have something amazing shortly their ecosystem is going to turn to 2nd rate dust.