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Official 2007 MLB Season Thread
- Thread starter Teh Don Ditty
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If that were the case then why would they would applaud when he does hit a homerun? No, other than a few crazies who really would like to see a player hurt, I think most fans want to see their team beat the best. In this instance, that means they want to see the pitchers on their favorite team compete against Bonds and win. When they do, and Barry hits a homerun, most fans respect the effort of both players. Just as they respect the effort of the pitcher who strikes Barry out or who makes him hit a weak ground ball. I know I respect the competition.
Don't get me wrong. I know, and any knowledgeable fan knows, that there are times Barry should be walked, but most of us also know that what goes on in walking Bonds so many times is just crazy.
....and in other news, the Red Sox lose.
Yep,it's standing room only on the Tobin Bridge this morning..The pink hats are lined up ten deep
As far as the Bond's situation,it can and will be debated for years.I don't mind discussing it,as long as it doesn't turn into some pissing contest,bitch fest. That being said,I'll offer up my take....
It seems like a tale of two eras in baseball. The late 50s, 60s and early 70s were the golden days of baseball,IMO.The AL had Mantle, Yaz, Killebrew, Kaline, Cash, Colavito, Oliva, Carew and so on.Pitchers? Oh, just some hackers named Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Seaver, Marichal, McDowell, Lolich, Tiant, Palmer.Do you realize that in one year--1969 or 1970 I think--the entire 4 man rotation for the Orioles were 20 game winners? Palmer, McNally, Dobson and Cuellar. Now you don't have four 20 game winners in the whole league--maybe not in both leagues.Remember Denny McLain--the last 30 game winner any of us will ever see. You might see another .400 hitter, someone might hit 90 HRs, but no pitcher today gets enough starts to win 30. Especially with the five man rotation,strict/rigid pitch counts etc. Not to mention the fact that years ago,both pitchers and hitters,didn't have the likes of Tampa Bay,Florida, Montreal/Wash etc to pad their average and lower their ERA.
I guess what I'm getting at,is how would today's sluggers have done in that era?Guys like Bonds,A rod,Manny,Pujols etc...
Like I said,seems like a tale of two eras in the game...
It seems like a tale of two eras in baseball. The late 50s, 60s and early 70s were the golden days of baseball,IMO.The AL had Mantle, Yaz, Killebrew, Kaline, Cash, Colavito, Oliva, Carew and so on.Pitchers? Oh, just some hackers named Koufax, Drysdale, Gibson, Seaver, Marichal, McDowell, Lolich, Tiant, Palmer.Do you realize that in one year--1969 or 1970 I think--the entire 4 man rotation for the Orioles were 20 game winners? Palmer, McNally, Dobson and Cuellar. Now you don't have four 20 game winners in the whole league--maybe not in both leagues.Remember Denny McLain--the last 30 game winner any of us will ever see. You might see another .400 hitter, someone might hit 90 HRs, but no pitcher today gets enough starts to win 30. Especially with the five man rotation,strict/rigid pitch counts etc. Not to mention the fact that years ago,both pitchers and hitters,didn't have the likes of Tampa Bay,Florida, Montreal/Wash etc to pad their average and lower their ERA.
I guess what I'm getting at,is how would today's sluggers have done in that era?Guys like Bonds,A rod,Manny,Pujols etc...
Like I said,seems like a tale of two eras in the game...
I think that old era would have no problem pitching to Bonds and taking their chances. They had better stuff tho to challenge Bonds. I also think that generation would not tolerate steroids like the players do today. More then half of todays players congratulated Bonds, I don't think you would see the old timers giving well wishes.
As for fans applauding Bonds, I think they are applauding the record itself and could care less about Bonds. I still think the majority of the country can't stand the guy.
For example, I can't stand the Red Sox but I did congratulate the fans on wining the World Series. That doesn't mean that I wanted them to win or that I like the team. Just because the fans are acknowledging Bonds does not mean they think he is a good guy.
Where is Tonya Harding when you need her.
As for fans applauding Bonds, I think they are applauding the record itself and could care less about Bonds. I still think the majority of the country can't stand the guy.
For example, I can't stand the Red Sox but I did congratulate the fans on wining the World Series. That doesn't mean that I wanted them to win or that I like the team. Just because the fans are acknowledging Bonds does not mean they think he is a good guy.
Where is Tonya Harding when you need her.
That generation tolerated the use of "greenies." A performance enhancing drug that has had an undeniable effect on baseball for at least the last 50 years.
As to congratulations to Barry from players (like A-Rod - and among other athletes we have seen messeges sent by Jordan, Gretzky, and last night Muhammad Ali,) some of the old timers would and some wouldn't. I don't think Bob Gibson would congratulate an opponent if you held a gun to his head, but most others recognize and respect the talent of opposing players. Remember, in Barry's case, he knows a lot of the players from the 60s and 70s from hanging out with his dad and Mays.
I grew to love baseball in the '60s, but nostalgia for the great players of the day shouldn't make us forget things. Baseball had its expansions in the '60s as well - in, 61, 62 and in 69, and it had an effect on the game. Remember that the great homerun chase in '61 took place in the environment of two new clubs in the American League - along with the extension of the season to 162 games.
I think the great players of any era would have fared just fine in your "golden era." Today's players are undoubtedly in better physical shape than the average player of that era. They also face a different type of pitching, with a much greater reliance on bullpens than in any previous time. So, while you rightly point to all the great pitchers of the '60s, I would point out the explosion of great closers and talented pens from the 80s to the present day. The real point, I think, is that there are so many things that have changed in baseball from era to era that it isn't fair to compare players of different times. Expansions, different ballparks, rule changes, and changes in style of play make all such comparisons shaky at best.
I think you're missing my point. To many fans, it appears, that they respect the achievement of Bonds' tying, and most likely, breaking of Aaron's record. That's all. I didn't like Pete Rose as a human being, as a player, or as an opponent, but I respected the achievement of his breaking Cobb's hit record. That's what I think is going on with opposing fans. Whether fans like Barry or think he is a "good guy" doesn't enter into it.
Reading that post made my head hurt. Some spaces between sentences please!
The fact that there were four-man rotations then doesn't mean that pitchers were better then than they are now. It just means that starters were expected to pitch more innings. We celebrate guys like Koufax and Gibson and Marichal for pitching on little rest and being workhorses, but there are a slew of forgotten, mediocre pitchers that didn't last long in those days, just like there are now. (Personally I think there are a lot of good reasons to go back to a four-man rotation, but it's not up to me, is it?) The main reason is that pitchers are paid a lot more now and teams don't want to risk burning out an expensive arm when there are cheaper bullpen arms available.
I still think the suspicions about steroids are the main factor here. If it's a "good guy" issue, it's probably only in comparison to Hank Aaron. Rose was (and is) a jerk-and-a-half, but he was saintly compared to Ty Cobb. Cobb may be the most repulsive human being in the history of major-league baseball. It's not like a lot of people had a personal bias in favor of Cobb when Rose broke his record.
Does anyone else find it baffling that Rickey Henderson breaking the all-time runs scored record didn't get more attention? That was incredible. Sure, it's not 755, but it's one of the most important records in the sport and it didn't get as much attention as A-Rod got for hitting his 500th. Cobb was atop that list for decades, far longer than I've been alive or my father has. And now Rickey's name is there instead. I thought he should have gotten more praise at the time.
Expansion had a much bigger effect than a lot of people realize. Roger Maris hit a disproportionate number of home runs against the expansion Los Angeles Angels that year. (I thought it was something like half a dozen, but can't be sure.) The Angels played that first year in a bandbox minor-league stadium that was also used for those early home run derby TV shows because of its small size and proximity to Hollywood. Without help from the Angels little ballpark, Maris doesn't hit 61 homers in 1961.
I completely agree. Several old-timers have predicted that no one will ever hit .400 again because it's so much harder to hit against all of the relief specialists now. The 1960s were a pitchers' era, even without the freak year of 1968.
Also, there were only a handful of Latin players competing for major-league jobs back then compared to now. To me that's at least as big a boost in talent depth as the end of the black color barrier.
There was an article recently (espn.com, maybe?) about how many current HOFers are withholding judgment until there's proof one way or the other. They've been divided over whether Rose should be inducted too. Don't assume that the old-timers think today's players are all spoiled brats.
Actually,I was making a comparison in the context of the record...
Aaron,setting the record in the age of bigger ball parks,less teams,four man rotations,deader ball,smaller bat,smaller physiques...
Or
Bonds breaking it in the era of smaller parks,more teams,five man rotations, livelier ball,training/muscles....
I realize they're two different eras.Just looking at the record itself...
I'm guessing that if Bond's tied,and/or subsequently broke the record, in say Boston,NY,Chicago,Philly the fan reaction would have been slightly different. Don't think we would have seen a standing O in any of those cities
..Yeah,his public perception,whether it's right or wrong,does play into it...I wish the record was broken in NY or Boston as then you would see the true fans reaction. What we will see in SF is a sugar coated unrealistic fan boi reaction.I'm guessing that if Bond's tied,and/or subsequently broke the record, in say Boston,NY,Chicago,Philly the fan reaction would have been slightly different. Don't think we would have seen a standing O in any of those cities
Im saying that SF isn't a true picture of how the country feels about Bonds. I do think east coast fans are harder then west coast.
Joba Chamberlain was called up today for the Yankees, and Giambi is back.
We had a lot of fun booing BB at Dodger stadium last week. Of course there may not be a greater hate in baseball than the history of these clubs, dating back to the east coast years and later moving to the west. Anyone remember the Marichal / Roseboro bat clubbing incident? So he gets doubly booed here.
He's a Giant and a roid droid.
He's a Giant and a roid droid.
Yankees win, solid effort by Clemens (a lot better than his last start )
Chamberlain looked a lot better than most guys we have in the bullpen
)Chamberlain looked a lot better than most guys we have in the bullpen
Fixed that for you.
I didn't see it I don't care to see it, as far as I am concerned the record is tarnished forever. The fact that espn is making this a huge event is kinda sad in itself.
Mr Bonds has broken the record now he can fade away into the sunset and never be heard from again.
I hope Mr Selig is happy for his part in ruining the game as well. This is just as much his fault as it is Bonds.
And now for the big rant.
As a long time baseball fan this day was one that I as well as many were not waiting for, the saying that cheaters never win I guess can't be used tonight as Barry Bonds cheated and is laughing his way into the history books. So does that mean that cheating is ok if you can beat the greatest record in all of sport. I hope Mr Bonds is proud of his achievement tonight as I for one am very disgusted at the moment. The great things that Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron have done for the game really are meaningless when a person like Bonds in one swing can destroy all of that history.
As a long time baseball fan this day was one that I as well as many were not waiting for, the saying that cheaters never win I guess can't be used tonight as Barry Bonds cheated and is laughing his way into the history books. So does that mean that cheating is ok if you can beat the greatest record in all of sport. I hope Mr Bonds is proud of his achievement tonight as I for one am very disgusted at the moment. The great things that Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron have done for the game really are meaningless when a person like Bonds in one swing can destroy all of that history.
Congratulations, Barry Bonds! A truly historic moment in Baseball, made all the sweeter by the class act of Aaron's message to Bonds. I'm glad to have seen it happen.