Official Complaints Over '4G' Marketing of New iPad Taking Hold in Europe

[PerfectDB]

That's not really what's going on. The issue is that other countries have what they call '4G' networks. The iPad claims that it has '4G' but it's not the kind of 4G that works in these other countries. So by advertising that it's '4G' it sounds like it will work on the 4G network in those countries, but really it won't. It's misleading.

But again, the ITU has stated that 4G can now include older 3.5G tech as well as LTE - that the carriers feel that only LTE constitutes '4G' in their eyes is irrelevant.

Apple has been careful to differentiate '4G' from LTE. They have pointed out the the iPad will only work on a few select lte networks, but will work on other worldwide '4G' networks - it's just that carriers outside the US don't refer to them as such.

At the end of the day it would have been so much simpler if the ITU had stuck to their guns and defined '4G' as LTE and above - we have the American carriers to thank for jumping the gun with HSPA+ and WiMax.

 

[Wilder]

We can expect the hammer to fall on Apple in the UK fairly shortly as well. I just received an email with the following text following my highlighting to the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) of the ambiguity of Apple's Marketing:


"Dear Mr Flynn

Thank you for your recent complaint regarding. I am sorry to hear that this advert has caused you concern.

You may be interested to know that we have received a number of complaints about this ad for the reasons you describe. I will add your complaint to our file, and you can expect to hear from a member of our Investigations team in due course.

In the meantime I would like to thank you for your patience and for bringing this to our attention."

Before anybody jumps on my back, nobody is suing anybody, there are just many of us over in Europe and elsewhere (ie. anywhere that is not in North America) who take serious issue with something being advertised as "Wi-Fi + 4G" when the device concerned will NEVER support the frequency bandings that we as a region (in my case, the EU) have chosen as our standard for LTE (800/2600MHz). I don't care that the 3G capability is "almost as fast" as North American 4G, the EU and Ofcom in the UK define 4G as: "WiMAX, WiMAX2, LTE and LTE-Advanced", and "The New iPad" doesn't support any of these in any of the regions in which it is being advertised as 4G outside North America.

I realise this will hardly affect sales, but at least it shows Apple can't just waltz around making up it's own rules as it goes along.

I'm glad I'm not alone. I've also complained to the ASA. People who mention the footnoting or the technical "up to" wording have missed the point of the complaints and the ASA. It's not about technicalities, it's about confusion.

Note to non-UK residents: if Apple is found guilty they'll simply have to stop using 4G in their UK marketing, there is no fine.

 

[lilo777]

But again, the ITU has stated that 4G can now include older 3.5G tech as well as LTE - that the carriers feel that only LTE constitutes '4G' in their eyes is irrelevant.

Apple has been careful to differentiate '4G' from LTE. They have pointed out the the iPad will only work on a few select lte networks, but will work on other worldwide '4G' networks - it's just that carriers outside the US don't refer to them as such.

At the end of the day it would have been so much simpler if the ITU had stuck to their guns and defined '4G' as LTE and above - we have the American carriers to thank for jumping the gun with HSPA+ and WiMax.

"it's just that carriers outside the US don't refer to them as such" - is not this the key here? We are talking about local (country-by-country) advertising. Every country may have their own notion of 3G and 4G. Apple obviously is well aware of that yet they decided to advertise iPad as "WiFi+4G" device in all countries. This is obviously a deliberate attempt to mislead consumers and it should not surprise anyone that they got caught. In general, Apple has along history of misleading advertising. Mac vs PC commercials are a great example of their lies.

 

[Nuvi]

I actually think if Apple are using the 4G capability of the new iPad to be a major part of their marketing strategy in countries that do not have 4G infrastructure in place then it's a fair point to bring them to task on this. It is somewhat dishonest to prominently highlight a feature that is incompatible / unavailable in a territory.

Its not that many countries in Europe don't have 4G (LTE) in place but the fact that even the European countries that have wide LTE coverage are using different frequencies then US service providers. In matter of fact every single European country (and wast amount of rest of the world) are using different 4G frequencies then US and Canada. Therefore, the new iPad will NEVER see 4G coverage in Europe no matter what happens. I think this is the major problem with Apple iPad marketing. They shouldn't be even mentioning term "4G" when marketing the product to Europeans.

For those living in State side and not understanding why this is a marketing problem since it works fine in some 4G network. Would you be happy if you had just bought your brand new iPad and just now realized that 4G only works in Europe but not in US?

EDIT: In Europe 4G means LTE. There is no way going around that like AT&T is doing in US.

EDIT2: In Apples UK marketing - "Really really fast is your only option.
The new iPad supports fast mobile networks the world over — up to 4G LTE. So you can browse the web, stream content or download a film at incredibly fast speeds. It also works on GSM/UMTS worldwide network technologies, including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA — the fastest 3G networks out there. You’ll see downlink speeds up to 42 Mbps with DC-HSDPA and up to 21.1 Mbps with HSPA+."

So Apple itself is referring DC-HSDPA as 3G (as it should be) which makes their 4G LTE pitch to Europeans even more strange. At least they should make very clear that LTE is no go (and never will be since the wrong LTE frequency) for the new iPad anywhere except in US and Canada.

 

[cube]

But again, the ITU has stated that 4G can now include older 3.5G tech as well as LTE - that the carriers feel that only LTE constitutes '4G' in their eyes is irrelevant.

Apple has been careful to differentiate '4G' from LTE. They have pointed out the the iPad will only work on a few select lte networks, but will work on other worldwide '4G' networks - it's just that carriers outside the US don't refer to them as such.

At the end of the day it would have been so much simpler if the ITU had stuck to their guns and defined '4G' as LTE and above - we have the American carriers to thank for jumping the gun with HSPA+ and WiMax.

The ITU has not defined the term 4G. It just said that some other technologies besides their candidate are sometimes referred as such (not by them).

 

[Therbo]

I'm glad I'm not alone. I've also complained to the ASA.

Note to non-UK residents: if Apple is found guilty they'll simply have to stop using 4G in their UK marketing, there is no fine.

If ASA finds them guilty and they don't comply, they get added to ASA's wall of shame.

 

[sweetbrat]

"it's just that carriers outside the US don't refer to them as such" - is not this the key here? We are talking about local (country-by-country) advertising. Every country may have their own notion of 3G and 4G. Apple obviously is well aware of that yet they decided to advertise iPad as "WiFi+4G" device in all countries. This is obviously a deliberate attempt to mislead consumers and it should not surprise anyone that they got caught. In general, Apple has along history of misleading advertising. Mac vs PC commercials are a great example of their lies.

I agree with you that they should be advertising according to what is considered 3G or 4G in that specific country. As for whether or not it's a deliberate attempt to mislead people, we can't really say. Everyone makes mistakes, and yes, that includes Apple. If they step up and make this right then I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. As for Apple's "long history of misleading advertising" I'm not so sure I agree with you there.

 

[paul4339]

But again, the ITU has stated that 4G can now include older 3.5G tech as well as LTE - that the carriers feel that only LTE constitutes '4G' in their eyes is irrelevant....

It's not so much about the ITU as it is about allowing the avg consumer to make an informed choice. So they (Apple) can be correct from a technology standards perspective, but it still doesn't mean that they are straight/open with the consumer.

.... This is obviously a deliberate attempt to mislead consumers and it should not surprise anyone that they got caught....

I don't disagree, but I don't think it's deliberate (as in trying to 'con' the consumer) BUT it's not forthcoming either. Being transparent and forthcoming (avoiding the fine print for important things where appropriate, stating things in plain language, using lingo that appropriate for that region) is important to regulators.

.

 

[alhedges]

the EU and Ofcom in the UK define 4G as: "WiMAX, WiMAX2, LTE and LTE-Advanced

Do you have a cite for this? I would expect the US to ignore the ITU before the EU would.

 

[Frosties]

Europe is so far behind with 4G and LTE and has to use a different frequency. This is part apple's fault but Europe really needs to get with the program.

Due to the fact that Europe have a wider and better mobile communications network than the american counterparts this is just a laugh.

In Sweden we have had 3G and 4G for some years now. 4G networks was first built here in the world due in big part from Ericsson base stations.

It's just that we have set aside other frequencies than the US due to restriction from military etc. I don't think any concerned party will be happy to have their communications hampered be it in the US or Europe.

Apple choose the home market before the world yet again. For us Apple customers this is no news, it goes way back. We just choose to ignore it for the most part because we love the products.

 

[sjo]

If nothing else, this serves to highlight the sorry state of frequency standardization for LTE. The price of sovereignty, I guess.

This is nothing new in cellular devices. More like a rule, the few recent "works on pretty much every frequency" models are the exception.

If the chips with all the required frequencies are not yet available, Apple should've just made another version of the device to be sold everywhere outside the US. The ATT and Verizon versions are somewhat different already? Why not make an European version? Eventually they have to anyway. I'll love to see the marketing spin Apple's going to pull at that point to sell their European customers an 4G model they actually can use, after selling them 4G model they can't use.

 

[PerfectDB]

I'm glad I'm not alone. I've also complained to the ASA. People who mention the footnoting or the technical "up to" wording have missed the point of the complaints and the ASA. It's not about technicalities, it's about confusion.

Note to non-UK residents: if Apple is found guilty they'll simply have to stop using 4G in their UK marketing, there is no fine.

Why would you complain though? If you regularly visit this forum then you would know there is no LTE network here in the UK, so how we're you mislead?

To those who don't visit the forums then yes there may be some confusion, but at the end of the day I think there would be very few people who would have bought the new iPad based solely on the fact it has 4G. It's not even as if the the 4G model is useless outside the US - you'll still be getting much faster download speeds over 3G if you're on a compatible network.

I think the whole thing has been engineered in the hopes that someone somewhere will launch another class-action against Apple over this issue.

 

[alhedges]

The ITU has not defined the term 4G. It just said that some other technologies besides their candidate are sometimes referred as such (not by them).

ITU has not defined the term, but ITU has said that the term includes HSPA+. As well as LTE and WiMax, as far as that goes.

When the ITU stated "it is recognized that this term [4G], while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed," they were not stating, as you seem to assume, that carriers might call HSPA+ or LTE 4G...but they are really not.

What they stated is that it is *permissible* to apply the term 4G to LTE, to WiMax, and to HSPA+. IOW, HSPA+ is just as much 4G as LTE is.

 

[Tanax]

I actually think if Apple are using the 4G capability of the new iPad to be a major part of their marketing strategy in countries that do not have 4G infrastructure in place then it's a fair point to bring them to task on this. It is somewhat dishonest to prominently highlight a feature that is incompatible / unavailable in a territory.

Actually, we have 4G in Sweden. More so than there are 4G capabilities in the US. Sweden is always amongst the top to have wide-spread networking capabilities aswell as broadband and fiber-cable to an extent that won't be in US for years.

The point is that we have 4G. It's just operating on a different bandwidth than the one used in the new iPad. Hence, it won't work.

I do believe though that it is fair and a good choice by Apple to offer refunds. That's great! Not that I was affected, but still.

 

[foodog]

I think part of the problem is that the iPad won't work on the EU 4G at all. It's not that it depends on availability, but it just doesn't work. I'm a fairly technical person and I almost fell for that.
I did check my local phone company's 4G network and apparently there is 4G coverage where I live, work and pretty much along my commute.

Now, this might a bit stupid but in my book you can't sell a product: super mobile iPad 4G (1)

(1) doesn't include 4G

There have to be repercussions otherwise companies will go berserk with this kind of stuff: new supercool fridge with freezer (1) for only $999.
(1) doesn't include freezer.

The problem goes on: Apple lists phone companies that provide data plans on their website. If you got the homepage of one of those companies and check for 4G coverage, you might get a green light. Now wouldn't it be reasonable that the 4G data plan with the iPad 4G actually supports 4G?


Sure there is some fine print. But come on. I personally don't think that the customer has to know the frequencies that their country uses. If a company advertises a feature in a country, it has to work there, well at least in my book.
Otherwise you will constantly have to check online if the new product actually works where you live.

And it doesn't matter if that is in Europe, the USA, Japan or on the moon. If you buy a product at home, it has to work there as advertised. If you buy it somewhere else, that's a different story.

A manufacturer need only tell you the capabilities of the product. The consumer needs to educate themselves about it and make the decision if they want to buy it.

 

[dokujaryu]

I'm going to weigh in my opinions on this since all of this is just opinion anyway.

Saying that the iPad supports 4G is like saying it has memory. It's become such a nebulous term now that it practically has no meaning beyond that fact that it is in some way faster or better than 3G. So, that's my definition of 4G. That means that the iPad supports at least three 4G technologies: LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA.

This also means there is nothing false about their advertising. You can't possibly claim it doesn't support 4G technologies, because its a fact that it does.

So, they want to claim that it doesn't support a particular technology or frequency that falls under the scope of 4G. But to me that doesn't imply false advertising, even if there's no place that it supports 4G in their entire country because the device its self still supports 4G technologies. If you travel to the U.S., AT&T will sell you LTE service which I consider to be 4G. That is important information for anyone traveling to the U.S. if nothing else, so it seems perfectly normal to me it would be on the advert.

It is vague that it just says 4G, but 4G is vague in its self. The tech specs of the device remove all vagueness and it's not like Apple is hiding these. They are even on the box. Would they still be sued if it said "Supports Fast Cell Networks!"

Nya nya! Define "fast!"

 

[Wilder]

Why would you complain though? If you regularly visit this forum then you would know there is no LTE network here in the UK, so how we're you mislead?

To those who don't visit the forums then yes there may be some confusion, but at the end of the day I think there would be very few people who would have bought the new iPad based solely on the fact it has 4G. It's not even as if the the 4G model is useless outside the US - you'll still be getting much faster download speeds over 3G if you're on a compatible network.

I think the whole thing has been engineered in the hopes that someone somewhere will launch another class-action against Apple over this issue.

No offence but too many people, mostly Americans, keep talking about someone suing Apple over this. No one is suing Apple, at least not in the UK, because of this.

Please understand that if any company wants to do business in the UK, or any country, they must comply with that countries laws. I'm certain US residents wouldn't appreciate a foreign company selling a 5G device in the US simply because somewhere it is capable of doing something someone describes as 5G.

HSPA+ is not defined as 4G in the UK, a 4G LTE network doesn't exist yet in the UK and, when it does, the iPad will not work with that network. Therefore, regardless of footnotes and technicalities, Apple cannot market the iPad as 4G in the UK, labelling the cellular model "Wi-Fi + 4G" constitutes as marketing, because it is simply has no 4G function over hear and is therefore confusing and/or misleading.

I complained because I understand. I have a moral duty to help those who may not understand and would otherwise be confused.

 

[KnightWRX]

That means that the iPad supports at least three 4G technologies: LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA.

They specifically state 4G LTE on their feature page. For the UK and other countries where the LTE networks are not compatible with the frequencies used by the LTE support in the iPad.

Your whole argument falls apart because of this.

 

[paul4339]

A manufacturer need only tell you the capabilities of the product. The consumer needs to educate themselves about it and make the decision if they want to buy it.

One problem here is that the consumer are often buying the service and the iPhone. Telstra (Australia) calls/sells 4G as LTE. Apple sells the iPhone as just 4G ... So to the avg consumer buying a 4G phone from Telstra, they can easily get confused... They would expect that the 4G phone works with the 4G service.

Apple in this case hasn't adapted their regional advertising lingo to Australia's main carrier.

Jokingly, on a side note ... try advertising a pint of Guinness in the UK (and then in small print tell the consumer that you really mean a 16oz US pint)! In the UK the consumer is expecting a 20oz (imp), because that's what 'pint' means in that region.

.

 

[Lennholm]

I'm going to weigh in my opinions on this since all of this is just opinion anyway.

Saying that the iPad supports 4G is like saying it has memory. It's become such a nebulous term now that it practically has no meaning beyond that fact that it is in some way faster or better than 3G. So, that's my definition of 4G. That means that the iPad supports at least three 4G technologies: LTE, HSPA+, and DC-HSDPA.

This also means there is nothing false about their advertising. You can't possibly claim it doesn't support 4G technologies, because its a fact that it does.

So, they want to claim that it doesn't support a particular technology or frequency that falls under the scope of 4G. But to me that doesn't imply false advertising, even if there's no place that it supports 4G in their entire country because the device its self still supports 4G technologies. If you travel to the U.S., AT&T will sell you LTE service which I consider to be 4G. That is important information for anyone traveling to the U.S. if nothing else, so it seems perfectly normal to me it would be on the advert.

It is vague that it just says 4G, but 4G is vague in its self. The tech specs of the device remove all vagueness and it's not like Apple is hiding these. They are even on the box. Would they still be sued if it said "Supports Fast Cell Networks!"

Nya nya! Define "fast!"

Oh yes, YOUR personal definition av 4G is what everyone should use. On the other hand, the definitions that have been firmly established by the competing carriers and well understood by their customers might be a better idea.

 

[cube]

ITU has not defined the term, but ITU has said that the term includes HSPA+. As well as LTE and WiMax, as far as that goes.

When the ITU stated "it is recognized that this term [4G], while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed," they were not stating, as you seem to assume, that carriers might call HSPA+ or LTE 4G...but they are really not.

What they stated is that it is *permissible* to apply the term 4G to LTE, to WiMax, and to HSPA+. IOW, HSPA+ is just as much 4G as LTE is.

The ITU didn't say it is permissible to apply the term to those technologies, just that it may happen.

 

[whis]

Wirelessly posted

This thread highlights the fact that America is the centre of the world to Americans.

It's not that hard. Australia has a 4G network. The new iPad isn't compatible with our 4G network.

 

[RDG]

2) Yes, maybe AT&T and others wanted to sell more by pretending 3G++ networks were 4G. But let's be honest, though Europe was way ahead for 3G (the release of the first EDGE iPhone was a joke at the time, 2G phones had nearly completely disappeared in Europe); the US clearly are ahead in terms of 4G (both "fake" and "LTE"). Very few big European countries have commercially available LTE; and even HSPA+ penetration is not that good.
So whether we do or do not market 3G++ as being 4G is not the matter: Europe has lost this battle, get over it, we'll see for 5G

Disagree. The reason Europe doesn't have an urge to roll true 4G (100 mpbs minimum) is because at its current implementation it only offers a marginal (if at all) speed increase over existing HSPA+ networks. Verizon 4G LTE reaches average speeds of 24 mbit in perfect conditions, which is what HSPA+ reaches in Europe. The reason the US calls their implementation of LTE 4G is because they mostly come from CDMA which is much, much slower than HSPA+.

http://www.bgr.com/2011/04/01/verizon-4g-lte-blows-away-sprints-wimax-in-1000-speed-tests/

These speeds are not 4G. What the US providers have done is implemented the speeds the EU has, and called it 4G for marketing purposes. Maybe the technology behind it is fourth generation, the implementation of it is far from it.

 

[jmccall]

We can expect the hammer to fall on Apple in the UK fairly shortly as well. I just received an email with the following text following my highlighting to the Advertising Standards Agency (ASA) of the ambiguity of Apple's Marketing:


"Dear Mr Flynn

Thank you for your recent complaint regarding. I am sorry to hear that this advert has caused you concern.

You may be interested to know that we have received a number of complaints about this ad for the reasons you describe. I will add your complaint to our file, and you can expect to hear from a member of our Investigations team in due course.

In the meantime I would like to thank you for your patience and for bringing this to our attention."

Before anybody jumps on my back, nobody is suing anybody, there are just many of us over in Europe and elsewhere (ie. anywhere that is not in North America) who take serious issue with something being advertised as "Wi-Fi + 4G" when the device concerned will NEVER support the frequency bandings that we as a region (in my case, the EU) have chosen as our standard for LTE (800/2600MHz). I don't care that the 3G capability is "almost as fast" as North American 4G, the EU and Ofcom in the UK define 4G as: "WiMAX, WiMAX2, LTE and LTE-Advanced", and "The New iPad" doesn't support any of these in any of the regions in which it is being advertised as 4G outside North America.

I realise this will hardly affect sales, but at least it shows Apple can't just waltz around making up it's own rules as it goes along.

Easiest way to resolve this is to stop selling it in other countries that are complaining if people are going to complain. Then again, we'll have to hear the same group of people complaining that Apple doesn't like our country and isn't selling it here. I'm sure pretty everyone here on the forum is smart enough to do some research to insure that whatever device they plan on purchasing works on their "LTE" network. And from what I remember Apple does state somewhere on the box that LTE is only available in the U.S.

 

[Confuzzzed]

WTF since launch it has been exactly 11 days. Last I knew Apple is dogmatic in allowing customers to return anything during the first 14 days since purchase. They call it remorse period. If you have a problem with your purchase, take it back. The rest of it is, I am afraid just talk for the sake of talk. **** stirring. Being an old woman. Call it what you want. I understand advertising standard agencies will take an interest BUT regarding the consumer, take your damn thing back. Bet not many people will. Because the display rocks. The dictation rocks. The quad core GPU rocks if you're into that sort of thing. Bye