Okay, Tim this is ridiculous. (Mini-Rant)

ggg05a

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2009
128
0
So Tim,

I'm moving to Germany this May for school. I've had my MBP since mid 2008, when the first uni-body MBP released. The computer is great, but given its age, its relative inability to play well with Lion, I'm wanting to purchase a new MBP when it releases this year with a German keyboard on it.

I want to give your company money for a product is willingly sells, however, I have no interest paying for it in Euros, as that ~ 30% premium will do nothing except line Apple's pockets with my money. Why in God's name does Apple not offer computers in the States with more keyboards than just French, Spanish, and English? The German keyboards are produced in the exact same factory as the English keyboard are. Furthermore the product cost for each is almost the exact same. So why the 30% premium?

Please provide an avenue for me, or other students to procure a MBP with a German keyboard at an American price, or for the first time I will pirate a Apple product, and do it guilt-free buy purchasing a PC laptop and installing Lion on it.

--A loyal customer, who is slightly disenfranchised at the moment
 

snaky69

macrumors 603
Mar 14, 2008
5,904
484
So Tim,

I'm moving to Germany this May for school. I've had my MBP since mid 2008, when the first uni-body MBP released. The computer is great, but given its age, its relative inability to play well with Lion, I'm wanting to purchase a new MBP when it releases this year with a German keyboard on it.

I want to give your company money for a product is willingly sells, however, I have no interest paying for it in Euros, as that ~ 30% premium will do nothing except line Apple's pockets with my money. Why in God's name does Apple not offer computers in the States with more keyboards than just French, Spanish, and English? The German keyboards are produced in the exact same factory as the English keyboard are. Furthermore the product cost for each is almost the exact same. So why the 30% premium?

Please provide an avenue for me, or other students to procure a MBP with a German keyboard at an American price, or for the first time I will pirate a Apple product, and do it guilt-free buy purchasing a PC laptop and installing Lion on it.

--A loyal customer, who is slightly disenfranchised at the moment
This forum isn't run by Apple, and Tim Cook will never see this message. Even if you email it directly to him tcook@apple.com, it will be read by a subordinate and promptly deleted.

Your admission of piracy on a public forum is rather stupid, and if you intend to send this to Apple's CEO, even more so.

The premium is not due to the keyboard, you know? It's actually due to the importation fees from bringing an American product into your country. Buy a MBP with the english keyboard in the US by the internet, and when all the shipping, import duties and taxes are all said and done, you'll have spent just as much as buying locally.
 
Nov 28, 2010
22,670
28
located
Why can't your late (10/2008) 2008 MacBook Pro not run Lion?
My 2007 iMac can do that, though I removed it after a week, as it lacks proper Spaces and Exposé.
My 2009 MBP can also run it. The iMac has 4 GB of RAM and a 2 GHz C2D CPU.

Anyway, as Germany includes VAT (Mehrwertsteuer, 19 %) and some US states add taxes after the fact and some don't, you are a bit out of luck.
For instance, the 13" MBP for 1,199 USD costs 1,149 € in Germany, where the net price is 965 €, which translates to 1,257 USD as of today. While it is a bit more expensive, you have to take the US state taxes into account, of which I know nothing.
 

James Craner

macrumors 68000
Sep 13, 2002
1,709
173
Bristol, UK
Well a number of factors really

1. All the European stores have to include European Sales tax in the quoted price unlike the USA. In Germany that is 19%.

2. The cost of German import duty

3. Other incremental costs of doing business in Germany compared to the USA, including FX exposure risk.

As for why Apple does not offer a German Keyboard in the USA, lack of demand I presume.
 

jeremyshaw

macrumors 6502
Oct 29, 2011
340
0
Bingo. Most people would spend half their time wondering why the y and z are flipped, while the single key peckers would not be put off at all.
 

ggg05a

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2009
128
0
This forum isn't run by Apple, and Tim Cook will never see this message. Even if you email it directly to him tcook@apple.com, it will be read by a subordinate and promptly deleted.

Your admission of piracy on a public forum is rather stupid, and if you intend to send this to Apple's CEO, even more so.

The premium is not due to the keyboard, you know? It's actually due to the importation fees from bringing an American product into your country. Buy a MBP with the english keyboard in the US by the internet, and when all the shipping, import duties and taxes are all said and done, you'll have spent just as much as buying locally.

I realize Tim Cook will never see this, I realize that this forum isn't run my Apple. I just got off the phone with Apple customer care who essentially told me "tough luck" pay for it in Euros or buy something else. I'm a nice guy, and this guy was an ass.

The premium clearly isn't due to the keyboard, it is due to the difference in currency. Today 1 USD = ~ 1.30 Euro.

So a base model 15" MBP here in the states is $1,800 whereas the exact same computer in Germany in Euros is $1.750 Euros, or $2,275 at today's exchange rate, for the exact same computer.

I am just frustrated that given Apple's extensive supply chain, and we know that Apple has an extensive and sophisticated logistics network, why Apple cannot pull a German Macbook Pro headed to Germany and send it to the United States. Charge a $100 premium for doing so, fine. However, essentially charging $475 for me to purchase one in Germany is ridiculous.

The price hike isn't due to greediness on Apple's part, per se, as if you remove the Mwst from the price, the computer prices come out to roughly the same price. It is just the inability or unwillingness to make some slight modification to their logistic network to accommodate individuals who want international keyboards here in the United States.
 

ggg05a

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2009
128
0
Uh, wat?

I'm running Lion just fine on a 2008 MacBook. Not a Pro, but a straight up pre-unibody MacBook.
Lion runs much, much slower than SL did. Frequent beach balls, slow to wake from sleep, etc.,

Apple store said the HD was brimming with bad sectors, so I replaced it with a new one, and it is still very slow compared to SL. I've played with Lion on newer computer and it feels like SL used to on this computer.

----------

So am I the only one who doesn't think it is ridiculous you cannot order international keyboards off the Apple website here?

I'm not saying they should keep these things in stock, build them to order 4-6 week wait, charge a premium, fine. Just not even offering the option appears egregious, given their ability to do so, and don't seems rather stupid.
 

Rampant.A.I.

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2009
579
9
I, for one, demand that Apple offer a factory DVORAK keyboard for the same price as the English keyboard.
 

ggg05a

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2009
128
0
I, for one, demand that Apple offer a factory DVORAK keyboard for the same price as the English keyboard.
Extinct keyboard layout v keyboard that is used be over 100 million people, America's 2nd or 3rd largest trading partner (depending on your barometer), and the single largest economy in Europe.

Yes, clearly your point has merit and is persuasive.
 

thundersteele

macrumors 68030
Oct 19, 2011
2,984
7
Switzerland
So that 30% premium in germany is:

19% VAT
10% misc expenses

To further split up the 10%:
- exchange rate fluctuations - since Apple pays it's bills in US$, any revenue generated in another currency must provide some buffer to level out fluctuations and maybe the cost of converting the money to US$
- different consumer laws - e.g. they have to price in the two year mandatory warranty in europe
- localization cost - localizing a product for a smaller market means higher costs per unit
- possible customs fees for imports
- and so on

Go complain to germany for having such a high VAT... or better don't, because free education, a working health insurance system and social security are probably worth paying a little extra.
 

sweetbrat

macrumors 65816
Jun 17, 2009
1,443
1
Redford, MI
So that 30% premium in germany is:

19% VAT
10% misc expenses

To further split up the 10%:
- exchange rate fluctuations - since Apple pays it's bills in US$, any revenue generated in another currency must provide some buffer to level out fluctuations and maybe the cost of converting the money to US$
- different consumer laws - e.g. they have to price in the two year mandatory warranty in europe
- localization cost - localizing a product for a smaller market means higher costs per unit
- possible customs fees for imports
- and so on
^^^This. And a 2008 MBP can run Lion just fine. My husband uses his every single day with no problems whatsoever.
 

ggg05a

macrumors regular
Original poster
Jan 11, 2009
128
0
Go complain to germany for having such a high VAT... or better don't, because free education, a working health insurance system and social security are probably worth paying a little extra.
No, I'm a fan of the 19% VAT.

I just think it is ridiculous that Apple doesn't have some option to order a computer with an international keyboard with a major foreign language. It is not as if I am asking for Farsi here.

Essentially, I don't understand why Apple is forcing me to pay the MwSt by not offering the keyboard here in the States.
 

charlieroberts

macrumors 6502a
Feb 5, 2007
592
104
Extinct keyboard layout v keyboard that is used be over 100 million people, America's 2nd or 3rd largest trading partner (depending on your barometer), and the single largest economy in Europe.

Yes, clearly your point has merit and is persuasive.
Lol, I don't get why everyone has their panties in a bunch because of your post.
I understand completely and find it crap that you will have to pay 500 usd to buy a mbp with german keyboard!

Buuuut, why don't you find out what the price would be to "change" the keyboard. I imagine apple stores in germany must come across the guy who has a badly damaged keyboard and wants it replaced.
Maybe that´s closer to the 100 dlls you want to spend? Call them and tell them what they would charge for a replacement keyboard!

Unfortunately that´s all I have. With pre unibody mbp you could have changed the top case but with unibodies Im not sure what your options are.

By the way, why not spend 400 usd on a nice ssd and keep your current laptop for a while longer? May be worth considering?
 

thundersteele

macrumors 68030
Oct 19, 2011
2,984
7
Switzerland
Essentially, I don't understand why Apple is forcing me to pay the MwSt by not offering the keyboard here in the States.
Well, because they don't. I once asked for an english keyboard in switzerland, and was told that it would be 6-8 weeks for them to deliver it. That was a reseller however, not an Apple store.

It's clear why they offer Spanish keyboards here - it's the dominant language in a few states :D

It's less clear why they offer French and not e.g. German. That's just bad luck for you unfortunately.

On the other hand, if you bring a new (less than 6 month old) laptop to germany, you have to declare it at the border and pay the MwSt and maybe some customs fee. So it's not a big difference really.
 

eawmp1

macrumors 601
Feb 19, 2008
4,137
9
FL
I am just frustrated that given Apple's extensive supply chain, and we know that Apple has an extensive and sophisticated logistics network, why Apple cannot pull a German Macbook Pro headed to Germany and send it to the United States. Charge a $100 premium for doing so, fine. However, essentially charging $475 for me to purchase one in Germany is ridiculous.

The price hike isn't due to greediness on Apple's part, per se, as if you remove the Mwst from the price, the computer prices come out to roughly the same price. It is just the inability or unwillingness to make some slight modification to their logistic network to accommodate individuals who want international keyboards here in the United States.
Their logistics network works because it is streamlined. You start putting exceptions in the chain for the one person in the US who actually wants a keyboard in a non-North American language, and the whole system will collapse in disorganization. ;)
 

charlieroberts

macrumors 6502a
Feb 5, 2007
592
104
You can always buy a laptop from the US and then buy a German keyboard cover like this:

http://www.kbcovers.com/servlet/Detail?no=218
NICE one!
Excellent solution

Well, because they don't. I once asked for an english keyboard in switzerland, and was told that it would be 6-8 weeks for them to deliver it. That was a reseller however, not an Apple store.

It's clear why they offer Spanish keyboards here - it's the dominant language in a few states :D

It's less clear why they offer French and not e.g. German. That's just bad luck for you unfortunately.

On the other hand, if you bring a new (less than 6 month old) laptop to germany, you have to declare it at the border and pay the MwSt and maybe some customs fee. So it's not a big difference really.
You only have to declare it if you live in germany, but if you are just studying I don't think you do?
 

Rampant.A.I.

macrumors 6502a
Sep 25, 2009
579
9
Extinct keyboard layout v keyboard that is used be over 100 million people, America's 2nd or 3rd largest trading partner (depending on your barometer), and the single largest economy in Europe.

Yes, clearly your point has merit and is persuasive.
Point being, demand is going to dictate the product's availability in the 'states, and I'd wager there aren't a lot of German speakers in the US who want a German-only keyboard.

Your other option is to get a keyboard cover and switch layouts as mentioned above, which I think is a practical solution for a $2000 machine and a native English speaker. ;)
 

ouimetnick

macrumors 68030
Aug 28, 2008
2,555
1,080
Beverly, Massachusetts
Backup your important files, and do a clean install of Lion..... issue solved. 2007 Macs run Lion with out any issues.. your experience should be no difference, if anything, better!
 

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