Open letter from a Pro about the actual MacBook Pro

[aevan]

Agreed, and that's all I ever state, its my personal opinion and need. One size does not fit all, but it seems other members seem to think something is wrong with you if you don't think the MBP is the fastest, best computer ever made. It may not be the fastest (but its no slouch, it is a very fast computer), but whether its the best is a matter of personal preference.

I see it the other way around - a lot of people here think something is wrong with you if you do think MBP is great. And by "something is wrong" I mean "you're not a true pro". This is a theme going through all the criticism - if you like the new MBPs, you are not a professional.

Oh, and I'm not giving in on that "not the fastest" - we still don't have the benchmarks. Yes, I do expect it to be the fastest laptop, outside of gaming. But, even if it isn't - that doesn't mean it's a slouch, just as you said.

Either way, this is not directed at you personally, it's more in defense of those who don't consider this laptop to be some joke built for fashion insted of pro work.

 

[maflynn]

I mean "you're not a true pro". This is a theme going through all the criticism

I agree, what is a professional? Is a photographer who shoots a DSLR (using a CF card and not a SD card), a pro? Or a manager on a business trip needing a laptop any less of a pro? The term pro is over used and under defined and being used as a club to bludgeon the opinions of others.

 

[Gudi]

The old **** I use ? My dear sir....you have no idea what I use , if you were trying to make a point, sadly I fail to see it.

Of course you fail, how else could you think a 2011 MacBook Pro was the last 'pro' machine.

 

[kazmac]

You don't get it.

1. If you need more than what they offer, you're the niche.
2. Nothing wrong with being fashionable per se, but I don't think anyone is buying these expensive computers for fashion reasons. I certainly am not. We're buying them because they are powerful, portable workhorses with amazing technologies. What does that have to do with being fashionable?
3. If anything, I could say: I hope Apple keeps on making computers for the majority of serious pros, not caving to a gamer niche.
[doublepost=1479101348][/doublepost]

Every year I see people buying computers with "future-proofing" in mind. But their logic is usually flawed. First of all, requirements don't rise as fast these days, I am practically certain that if your workflow doesn't require more hardware today, you'll be fine for the next 4 years. Second, even if there is a bottleneck down the road it's more likely to be something else: hdd space, GPU, new connection technologies, etc. Honestly, if you really want future proofing it would be smarter to look at ports than RAM, and I'd say you're fine there. Why is everyone making RAM the one thing where hardware requirements are somehow going to double during the computer's lifetime?
If you're fine with 16Gb now - and, if you have to ask, you almost certainly are - you'll be fine with it by the time the machine has run its course.

Thank you so much for telling me what I am unable to understand. The whole mindset of Apple PTB is image and money driven these days; very fashion conscious and these new MBPs sure are pretty. Gamer? Hrm, that beyond what I do with my Mac. I would like more value from these laptops. If the OS still worked flawlessly, I'd be more content.

Are they powerful, portable workhorses? Only the user can say. For my needs the non touch bar 13" would be plenty for my workload (if you could call what I use computers for a workload), but I would like to hear more from folks who can validate this claim.

If these machines work for you and others, great.

 

[MH01]

Of course you fail, how else could you think a 2011 MacBook Pro was the last 'pro' machine.

In which case you would consider the new Mac Pro machine to be more of a pro machine than the 2012....it's not

 

[Gudi]

In which case you would consider the new Mac Pro machine to be more of a pro machine than the 2012....it's not

You're moving the goal post, so now it's no 'Pro' after 2012 and instead of matte screens and 17-inch, you're arguing that a trashcan can not be a pro desktop? Since the new one is faster, cooler, quieter and smaller, I suppose your gripe is about upgradability? Then I'd argue an upgradable machine is one that is stuck on standardized components, which is the opposite of being professional equipment.

 

[MH01]

You're moving the goal post, so now it's no 'Pro' after 2012 and instead of matte screens and 17-inch, you're arguing that a trashcan can not be a pro desktop? Since the new one is faster, cooler, quieter and smaller, I suppose your gripe is about upgradability? Then I'd argue an upgradable machine is one that is stuck on standardized components, which is the opposite of being professional equipment.

Lets agree that neither you or me will agree what "pro" means. Hope you pre-ordered the new machine, mine arrives later this week.

 

[bjet767]

will agree what "pro" means

I think to many, they are a "pro" and everyone else is an amateur.

I have found many "pros" don't do "pro" work.

But I am "pro-"_____ (fill in the blank), so does that count for something?



PS. It'll be the best MBP release in 2016.

got to work those emojis.

 

[macjunk(ie)]

Since every major spending component - the CPU, the GPU and the screen - spend a lot less power, we just don't know that. We'll have to wait for tests. Of course, if you really want to somehow prove Apple is making worse computers, you don't really need tests, you can just claim whatever you feel like.

This forum nowadays is quite bellicose.

Newer components maybe...but they did put in the touch bar that has its own screen, processor etc.
In my view, it will be an unnecessary burden on the already smaller battery.
The touch bar should have been an accessory and not on the damn keyboard!

Anyway, I posted my comment on the battery life looking at the ArsTechnica review of the non-Touch 13.
Battery life under load is not the same as last year. It is less. With the non-touch bar, it is marginally less....it will be interesting to see how much lesser it is for the touch bar ones.

 

[macrem]

I am a software dev. The only drawback I have with this new machine is the amount of RAM. I don't really think I need it all now, but I will definately need in the coming 2-3 years. That's the least amount of time I plan to hold on to this new machine if I decide to purchase it.

I kind of understand where Apple is going with the removal of ports and everything. They want things to go wireless and to the cloud. They want you to let go of the idea that you need wires or sticks or boxes to do your regular things. And this is not merely targeted at the people who are going to use this laptop but also at the companies that produce usb storage, projectors, and etc.

We have seen this shift in software development a long time ago when we got introduced to version control and everything else that came out of it. Suddently we didn't need any hard drives or other portable storage to do our job.

Apple is pushing for new radical solutions and being a revolusionist here again. And we see that this comes at a cost, because most people and companies do not welcome change. As always.

As for magsafe, I do not welcome this change, because this has saved me from losing my laptop a couple of times, but I may explain it due to usb c being a more efficient and fast charger.

Personally my only dilemma now is to get a laptop with touch bar or get one without it. I am not really sure I can be more productive with it and if the software I use will implement it and rely on it heavily in the coming 2-3 years.

This. Reading the open letter, while I feel for photographers who are used to MBPs fitting their needs better before 2016, where's it written that "Pro" in MBP means it's gotta (primarily) appeal to photographers. That said it's too bad Apple does not offer, for instance, a 17" with matte screen option, sd card reader, etc. more targeting photographers / videographers.

I think the new MBPs are way overpriced + personally calculated around 200€ on top of the inflated price to get back all the stuff that's missing / dongles I'd need, otherwise to me it looks like a kick@ss machine for developers (aside from the soldered RAM limitation). You can hook this baby up to two 5k monitors. It would be a pleasure to develop software on this machine professionally or otherwise. My 2012 MBP is still a great dev machine today with 8GB RAM. I personally value the new MBPs thinness, portability, design & power. But that price... I wouldn't buy it at the current price but it turns out likely that my employer will provide one

 

[julioleitao]

The best solution to reduce the glare on the screen monitor is to use coolshield's and anti-glare visor is sleek and
cuts glare, ligghtweight and its compact.

 

[Queen6]

Agreed, and that's all I ever state, its my personal opinion and need. One size does not fit all, but it seems other members seem to think something is wrong with you if you don't think the MBP is the fastest, best computer ever made. It may not be the fastest (but its no slouch, it is a very fast computer), but whether its the best is a matter of personal preference.

That`s the crux of the matter. The new MacBook is not designed to meet everyones needs, nor will all care for the update. Members of the forum are absolutely entitled to discuss both positive or negative aspects here, however some take it to extremes feeling the need to counter anyone and everyone`s "opinion" almost to the point that one would think it was a direct and personal slur.

Computers are just tools, most purchase hardware that meets their needs, a good system for one may well be a poor choice for another, nor are many, so deeply "invested" in Apple that they feel the need to rush in and rebuke what is little more than obvious casual comments. For those that do conduct themselves in this manner; this is exactly why some mock & ridicule fans of Apple...

Q-6

 

[soulreaver99]

It's just a laptop. Some of you guys need to chill out or get laid

 

[therealseebs]

I see it the other way around - a lot of people here think something is wrong with you if you do think MBP is great. And by "something is wrong" I mean "you're not a true pro". This is a theme going through all the criticism - if you like the new MBPs, you are not a professional.

Oh, and I'm not giving in on that "not the fastest" - we still don't have the benchmarks. Yes, I do expect it to be the fastest laptop, outside of gaming. But, even if it isn't - that doesn't mean it's a slouch, just as you said.

Either way, this is not directed at you personally, it's more in defense of those who don't consider this laptop to be some joke built for fashion insted of pro work.

I think the distinction I'd make is: Lots of people are likely to be happy with the machine because it does what they need. Nothing wrong with that.

But the people who insist that any feature it lacks is obviously worthless and stupid? They're just doing the fanboy thing. Like the Sony fans saying that rumble controllers were a "last-gen" feature no one wanted when the PS3 didn't have rumble, then declaring that it was an incredibly good feature for immersive play once rumble controllers started shipping.

There's reasons for which people want those features, and while the users who particularly want any given feature are a pretty small group, the users who would want a machine with a bunch of those features, but who are unhappy with the current line, are a somewhat larger group. Of course, they're a minority among Mac users... But that's partially because there's no way for them to get what they're looking for from Apple.

I really don't think this is good for Apple's ecosystem.

 

[aevan]

I think the distinction I'd make is: Lots of people are likely to be happy with the machine because it does what they need. Nothing wrong with that.

But the people who insist that any feature it lacks is obviously worthless and stupid? They're just doing the fanboy thing. Like the Sony fans saying that rumble controllers were a "last-gen" feature no one wanted when the PS3 didn't have rumble, then declaring that it was an incredibly good feature for immersive play once rumble controllers started shipping.

There's reasons for which people want those features, and while the users who particularly want any given feature are a pretty small group, the users who would want a machine with a bunch of those features, but who are unhappy with the current line, are a somewhat larger group. Of course, they're a minority among Mac users... But that's partially because there's no way for them to get what they're looking for from Apple.

I really don't think this is good for Apple's ecosystem.

I can't speak for others, but I never claimed the features they lack are worthless - I just said that most people don't need them and are complaining just to complain. That doesn't mean the feature itself is stupid, just that expectations of some people are either self-centered or unrealistic. There is a difference.

Take this 32Gb RAM thing for example. Now, suddenly, everyone wants 32Gb. In fact, people that could actually use 32Gb are the ones who mostly just shrug and say - meh, I'll be fine. But most people who suddenly discovered they need 32Gb because it's 2016. - just don't know what they are talking about. Some think that they need more RAM because "their 16Gb is full" - not knowing how modern OSs use RAM. Others talk about future-proofing, convinced they will need more than 16 in 2 years. Some just repeat the line "not having 32Gb RAM is bs!" without giving any reason.

At the same time, these people know that the Touch Bar is a gimmick, without trying it out. They know they could do a better job than Apple engineers and see how 3mm of thickness could solve all problems. They know what all true pros need. They cherry pick different things from different laptops - Surface Book is innovative and has a great battery life (no mention of the 16Gb RAM limit there), HP Spectre has Kaby Lake (no mention of what kind of Kaby Lake it is), Dell XPS comes with 32Gb RAM (but no mention of battery life), etc. etc. And don't get me started on the whole "bag of dongles" ********. Let's face it - a lot of people are just whining for the sake of whining. And that doesn't mean 32Gb is worthless, or that a better GPU is not useful, or whatever it is you're missing. It means the arguments are mostly wrong.

A lot of people here are just repeating the same lines over and over, even though it's been pointed out that they make no sense.

Again - it's not the features that are worthless, it's just the logic behind people spreading all the negativity is often wrong. They give themselves the right to chose who is a pro and who is not. They give themselves the right to pick what "everyone wants and no one needs". And everyone who disagrees is a fanboy.

 

[therealseebs]

I can't speak for others, but I never claimed the features they lack are worthless - I just said that most people don't need them and are complaining just to complain.

That makes literally no sense at all. It's not a thing people generally do.

They complain because a thing is, in some way, affecting them.

That doesn't mean the feature itself is stupid, just that expectations of some people are either self-centered or unrealistic. There is a difference.

None of the features I've seen people call for are "unrealistic", because all of them are commonplace in modern laptops.

Take this 32Gb RAM thing for example. Now, suddenly, everyone wants 32Gb. In fact, people that could actually use 32Gb are the ones who mostly just shrug and say - meh, I'll be fine. But most people who suddenly discovered they need 32Gb because it's 2016. - just don't know what they are talking about. Some think that they need more RAM because "their 16Gb is full" - not knowing how modern OSs use RAM. Others talk about future-proofing, convinced they will need more than 16 in 2 years. Some just repeat the line "not having 32Gb RAM is bs!" without giving any reason.

Every laptop I've ever gotten where memory upgrades were possible, I've upgraded memory because I was having issues due to insufficient memory later in its lifespan. My existing 8GB laptop? Definitely having serious problems.

Is it impossible to get by without it? No. Would it measurably improve performance of real-world tasks I do on my computers? Yes.

At the same time, these people know that the Touch Bar is a gimmick, without trying it out.

So, maybe it's just all my apps being old, but so far I've found nothing I wanted it for, except finding out how to get function keys on it. Temporarily. I'd rather have a way to just set it to function keys permanently, and then it'd just be a poor-quality function key row.

They know they could do a better job than Apple engineers and see how 3mm of thickness could solve all problems.

I'm not sure about "all" problems, but if every time I say "I want X", someone says "that would make the laptop thicker", then apparently 3mm of thickness would solve a whole lot of problems.

They know what all true pros need. They cherry pick different things from different laptops - Surface Book is innovative and has a great battery life (no mention of the 16Gb RAM limit there), HP Spectre has Kaby Lake (no mention of what kind of Kaby Lake it is), Dell XPS comes with 32Gb RAM (but no mention of battery life), etc. etc. And don't get me started on the whole "bag of dongles" ********. Let's face it - a lot of people are just whining for the sake of whining. And that doesn't mean 32Gb is worthless, or that a better GPU is not useful, or whatever it is you're missing. It means the arguments are mostly wrong.

I am pretty sure that no one is whining for the sake of whining.

I have lost count of how many Macs I've bought. At least 20 just for me personally. Of those, do you know how many I've been genuinely unhappy with? There was a Performa which was just massively underspecced, swapped it for a PowerMac 7500. There was the 17" MBP with some crappy mobile graphics chipset, which I bought after people on MacRumors told me that it absolutely ran a couple of specific programs just fine, and it didn't even come close... and even then, it was a pretty decent machine, it was just massively underpowered compared to what "experts" here told me. And there's this, which is by far the most disappointing machine I've ever seen from Apple.

I have been using Macs since the Mac SE. I have probably ten older-model macbooks in the basement waiting for me to get around to taking them out to an electronics recycling place. I have a 13" rMBP, I had the 2012 and 2011 MBPs, I have gone through all of them, and... This is the worst. This is a keyboard which is actually physically painful for me to type on, a problem I haven't usually had with computer or laptop keyboards since some really awful Dell desktop keyboards I used briefly around 1996. It lacks the function key row... But MacOS still has standard system functionality bound to function keys on a brand new install. The trackpad is sorta dodgy at discerning clicks, and large enough that it consistently gets in my way.

I'm not complaining "just to complain". That's pretty much not a thing. I'm complaining because I really like MacOS, and I want to run it on a laptop, and Apple is making laptops which utterly fail to live up to my expectations.

A lot of people here are just repeating the same lines over and over, even though it's been pointed out that they make no sense.

That a complaint doesn't make sense to you doesn't always mean it makes no sense. It might mean you haven't understood someone's point yet.

Again - it's not the features that are worthless, it's just the logic behind people spreading all the negativity is often wrong. They give themselves the right to chose who is a pro and who is not. They give themselves the right to pick what "everyone wants and no one needs". And everyone who disagrees is a fanboy.

No, only the people saying the laptops are fine are claiming authority to determine which things other people should or shouldn't want.

I'm not saying this machine shouldn't exist. I think it's probably a great macbook for someone somewhere who isn't me. I just want Apple to consider the remote possibility that having the MacBook, MacBook Air, and MacBook Pro all be focused on the exact same goal, which is "thinnest, lightest, laptop", is probably a bad plan. I think there might well be a market for a heavier laptop which doesn't make all these design compromises. I mean, I know there is, I just don't know how large the market would be.

I'm not saying no one wants or needs a thin laptop. I'm saying that "thin" is worth absolutely nothing to me, and that to obtain it, Apple's thrown out something like a dozen other features that I really valued.

And I can't just "go buy something else" and run Mac OS. And I like MacOS! But I can't justify spending $1500-$2k more to get a less-upgradeable, less-maintainable, machine which omits features I care about and physically hurts me to use without external gizmos. Not even for MacOS. (As I've said, if Apple would sell me a Mac OS license I could run on someone else's hardware for $1,500, I would buy it.)

 

[aevan]

None of the features I've seen people call for are "unrealistic", because all of them are commonplace in modern laptops.

There are a lot of crappy laptops with bad battery life, yes, I know. They are commonplace.

But a laptop of this class? I'd say there aren't many who even come close. But that's the point - you don't want a laptop of this class - you want a workstation class laptop. Or a gaming class laptop, whatever. Nothing wrong with that, but Apple never made those. Some semblance to that type of laptops was more a side-effect of their main goals, but it was never their goal.

One example is user replaceable drives. They never wanted people changing the hard drives in MacBooks. It was more a side effect of their production process and repair needs.

Every laptop I've ever gotten where memory upgrades were possible, I've upgraded memory because I was having issues due to insufficient memory later in its lifespan. My existing 8GB laptop? Definitely having serious problems.

8Gb is not the same as 16Gb.

Would it measurably improve performance of real-world tasks I do on my computers? Yes.

I don't know what real-world tasks you do, but unless you're making a lot of VMs, rendering large scenes with huge number of assets in Maya or 3dsmax, or doing something of that "weight" - no, more than 16Gb would not measurably improve performance.

Again, if you do need more, you need a workstation class laptop. Or some irrational compromised laptop, like the XPS equipped with 32Gb. Apple doesn't make either.

So, maybe it's just all my apps being old, but so far I've found nothing I wanted it for, except finding out how to get function keys on it. Temporarily. I'd rather have a way to just set it to function keys permanently, and then it'd just be a poor-quality function key row.

Again - the fact that you don't need it (perfectly possible) doesn't make it a "gimmick".

I'm not sure about "all" problems, but if every time I say "I want X", someone says "that would make the laptop thicker", then apparently 3mm of thickness would solve a whole lot of problems.

Probably not, there are a lot of factors, but ok, we can debate that all night. In the end, it's about the weight.

And let me put it this way - if they can make a really, really fast laptop with great performance, why not a thinner laptop? Just because 5% of users actually need 32Gb and 10% users think they need 32Gb?

I am pretty sure that no one is whining for the sake of whining.

Well, that's where we disagree

I have lost count of how many Macs I've bought.

Ah, the "I've been a Mac user for decades" argument. Look, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. Maybe the truth is something in between. Either way, the number of Macs you bought so far has exactly nothing to do with anything.

By the way, one question - as a long time Mac user - you're telling me you didn't notice they were always trying to make a specific type of device in the last decade? Lighter, thinner, premium build, closed access, all that? You didn't see it? Because the fact you're disappointed indicates surprise, and I find that hard to believe.

I'm not complaining "just to complain". That's pretty much not a thing. I'm complaining because I really like MacOS, and I want to run it on a laptop, and Apple is making laptops which utterly fail to live up to my expectations.

While I'm not saying that you're making your reasons up - your needs could really be genuine - expecting that Apple, or Microsoft, or any company make a product based on your personal expectations is just wrong. Let me be honest - they are not making the laptops I would personally want - if they did, the new MacBook Pro would support the Pencil. But I'm not expecting them to do something based on my very specific needs.

You don't have to be happy about it, but your personal needs speak nothing of the quality of a product, other than the fact that you require a different computer.

Let's be frank. Do you think most people (not necessarily you) criticizing here are saying:

"It's a good laptop for some, but not for me"

or

"It's a crap product"

I would really like to hear your opinion on this.

That a complaint doesn't make sense to you doesn't always mean it makes no sense. It might mean you haven't understood someone's point yet.

Sure, it's always a possibility. Maybe I'm just not capable of comprehending something. But then again, you could be too. That's not an argument.

No, only the people saying the laptops are fine are claiming authority to determine which things other people should or shouldn't want.

I'm not doing that. I'm saying that presenting personal opinions as objective facts ("not for true pros", "Apple is obsessed", "Microsoft is more innovative") is just wrong. I think these new MacBook Pros are ****ing amazing. Is that an objective fact? No, it's a personal opinion based on my needs and requirements. People saying it's a bad computer for them - also a personal opinion. Claiming that 16Gb is generally is enough for a large majority of the users, pro or otherwise - that's not a personal opinion. That's a fact.

 

[SteveJUAE]

I'm not doing that. I'm saying that presenting personal opinions as objective facts ("not for true pros", "Apple is obsessed", "Microsoft is more innovative") is just wrong. I think these new MacBook Pros are ****ing amazing. Is that an objective fact? No, it's a personal opinion based on my needs and requirements. People saying it's a bad computer for them - also a personal opinion. Claiming that 16Gb is generally is enough for a large majority of the users, pro or otherwise - that's not a personal opinion. That's a fact.

I think this is where you may be getting mixed up you seem to think that simple facts outweigh personal preferences, opinions and perceptions.

If for whatever reason that consumers now feel their overall assessment on the new MBP has shifted down from previous generations or against other OEM's this in it's self becomes a fact and is not wrong to express this as such.

This seems to be what we are seeing and you maybe missing.

We are all capable of judging validity of users views etc and if everyone here has to put their postings in quotes or add IMO and a myriad of caveats then it would be a very dull read to stop some people overly commenting on other's. IMO

 

[aevan]

I think this is where you may be getting mixed up you seem to think that simple facts outweigh personal preferences, opinions and perceptions.

If for whatever reason that consumers now feel their overall assessment on the new MBP has shifted down from previous generations or against other OEM's this in it's self becomes a fact and is not wrong to express this as such.

This seems to be what we are seeing and you maybe missing.

We are all capable of judging validity of users views etc and if everyone here has to put their postings in quotes or add IMO and a myriad of caveats then it would be a very dull read to stop some people overly commenting on other's. IMO

I get what you're saying. But it's not like I'm expecting everyone to start saying "only my opinion" and stuff like that. You can say "This thing sucks" and it's fine. What bothers me, and it could be just me, is emphasizing the other thing - the fact that it's somehow not subjective. In other words, they almost go out of their way to prove it's not a matter of perspective, but some objective, mesurable truth - and at the same time downplaying everyone else. I'll give you a typical example:

"It is obvious now that Apple doesn't care about pros and that this is a machine for fashion-minded, not for those doing real work."

I am paraphrasing, but I have seen this line several times. And that gets me annoyed. If you think this is not a big deal, what if I said something like this:

"It is obvious now that Apple makes machines only for those that are intelligent and have taste."

This is simply insulting to a lot of people, because of what it implies. Repeat that constantly, and it becomes the established narrative. I guess I hated the idea of this forum becoming a place where you feel bad for liking something. But I'm slowly giving up. It's been a fun ride, debating left and right, but I guess it's time to - cue Frozen music - let it go.