Open letter from a Pro about the actual MacBook Pro

[therealseebs]

I don't buy the "you have to use it before you can comment" argument. Sometimes, you can figure out in advance whether you'd like something. I've never actually lost limbs in a car crash, I don't go around speculating that it's probably fine and you just have to get used to it.

 

[jackoatmon]

I don't buy the "you have to use it before you can comment" argument. Sometimes, you can figure out in advance whether you'd like something. I've never actually lost limbs in a car crash, I don't go around speculating that it's probably fine and you just have to get used to it.

this guy here compares the new macbooks to losing his arms in a car crash

fascinating, relevant debate we've got going on here

 

[cmaier]

I don't buy the "you have to use it before you can comment" argument. Sometimes, you can figure out in advance whether you'd like something. I've never actually lost limbs in a car crash, I don't go around speculating that it's probably fine and you just have to get used to it.

Yeah because that's the same thing.

I remember millions of folks on here bitching that the iPhone soft-keyboard would be terrible to use in real life, all before they actually tried one.

I recall reading that the mouse was not an input device suitable for the masses but n various magazine back in the day.

And as a CPU designer I remember reading stupid commentary about how our chips would suck because they were missing on one spec or another, and then getting to watch everyone eat those words when our chips came out.

As my grandmother used to say: try it. You might like it.

 

[therealseebs]

But we all know that Apple will usually make just one class of pro MacBook, and the question is - is this one good for majority of pros - or some prosumer-casual mainstream device for rich people that most people here are claiming it to be.

They used to make more than one class.

All I'm saying - all I've been saying all this time - is that for some.... even most of us.... this IS a pro laptop that meets most, if not all, of our needs. And that the fact that some people require more, doesn't mean it's an underpowered, Apple-obsessed-with-thinnes casual user device that some people claim it to be. Nothing more, nothing less. You want something more? Matte screen? Old ports? Who am I to say that you're wrong to want these things? I am saying that just because I don't want these things - I'm not automatically "less pro" or whatever than you.

My complaint there is at least partially the lack of product differentiation between the product lines. It used to be you could opt for smaller/lighter or bigger/more powerful. Now you can't.

But we've been through this, haven't we? Take your matte screen for example. Apple stopped making devices with matte screens, what, 4 years ago? 5? They will never make them again. They are trying to reduce reflections on their glossy screens and it's obvious they won't go away from that direction. Why bring it up now? What's the point? I'm honestly asking. Did you really not see this coming 4 years ago?

Apple has sometimes changed direction. And even if they won't... It's useful to point out that there really are sound technical reasons for which people might have a different preference, and that dismissing it all as "no, this thing is definitely better" is not helpful. I was mostly, in the case of the screens, pointing out how completely false the justifications offered for no-matte-screens are. I'm aware that it's largely a matter of initial point-of-sale impact. Apple doesn't care whether using the machine causes literal headaches because of glare; Apple cares whether the machine looks impressive on the shelf in the store when you are just poking about casually, not trying to do precision work that requires looking intently at the display for hours.

But yeah, I do agree, at this point it seems pretty clear what direction they're going in. So in a couple of years, I'll probably be running hackintosh or linux or windows. (I might try to make a hackintosh work, and just buy a Mac laptop, and then buy a generic PC and run MacOS on it, and keep the Mac laptop nicely sealed up as My Mac OS License, because I'm disinclined to go the warez route.)

 

[cmaier]

this guy here compares the new macbooks to losing his arms in a car crash

fascinating, relevant debate we've got going on here

They don't have debate teams in schools anymore, I guess.

 

[aevan]

Yeah because that's the same thing.

I remember millions of folks on here bitching that the iPhone soft-keyboard would be terrible to use in real life, all before they actually tried one.

I recall reading that the mouse was not an input device suitable for the masses but n various magazine back in the day.

And as a CPU designer I remember reading stupid commentary about how our chips would suck because they were missing on one spec or another, and then getting to watch everyone eat those words when our chips came out.

As my grandmother used to say: try it. You might like it.

Especially when something is as complex as a computer of this type. Memory is faster than before. SSD is a lot faster. I'm not saying that's enough for everyone, but I bet there are some people who think 16Gb is not enough that may find out that this is just fine.

Your grandmother was right

 

[therealseebs]

Yeah because that's the same thing.

I remember millions of folks on here bitching that the iPhone soft-keyboard would be terrible to use in real life, all before they actually tried one

I have been using it for years, and still pretty much hate it. I like swype much better, but unfortunately, Apple's 3rd-party keyboard support is hopelessly crashy, so I can't really use it on iphone anyway.

As my grandmother used to say: try it. You might like it.

Your smug dismissal of other people's experiences is not actually a new thing, I was already aware that you don't think other people's experiences are valid. You don't need to keep showing it off. I got it the first time.

 

[cmaier]

I have been using it for years, and still pretty much hate it. I like swype much better, but unfortunately, Apple's 3rd-party keyboard support is hopelessly crashy, so I can't really use it on iphone anyway.



Your smug dismissal of other people's experiences is not actually a new thing, I was already aware that you don't think other people's experiences are valid. You don't need to keep showing it off. I got it the first time.

First, the personal insult is uncalled for.

Second, I dismissed no one's experience. My point was that before claiming the product isn't good enough, one should experience it. I was dismissing LACK of experience.

 

[aevan]

My complaint there is at least partially the lack of product differentiation between the product lines. It used to be you could opt for smaller/lighter or bigger/more powerful. Now you can't.

Hey, I agree. At least I think I do I wouldn't mind more options.

I think Apple's thinking here is that most people would make the wrong choice (oh, I'm just going to be hated now, am I?), so it's better to deny some people - like you - who know what benefits and tradeoffs they are getting - than to lower customer satisfaction for a large group of users. Imagine if they offered 32Gb for half the battery life - a lot of people would buy them and then bitch how battery life sucks.

I'm not saying I agree with this approach. Nor am I defending their decisions. I'm just trying to understand them, so I can better decide if I want to invest myself in their ecosystem for the next 5 years.

Again, I agree with what you said.

P.S. But I still can't get over the hysteria over a few adapters

 

[cmaier]

Apple sees themselves as product curators. They make the decisions as to what they think the "best" product is for most people, and don't worry so much about the people for whom there would be better engineering trade-offs. For better or worse, that's deeply engrained in their culture.

Hey, I agree. At least I think I do I wouldn't mind more options.

I think Apple's thinking here is that most people would make the wrong choice (oh, I'm just going to be hated now, am I?), so it's better to deny some people - like you - who know what benefits and tradeoffs they are getting - than to lower customer satisfaction for a large group of users. Imagine if they offered 32Gb for half the battery life - a lot of people would buy them and then bitch how battery life sucks.

I'm not saying I agree with this approach. Nor am I defending their decisions. I'm just trying to understand them, so I can better decide if I want to invest myself in their ecosystem for the next 5 years.

Again, I agree with what you said.

P.S. But I still can't get over the hysteria over a few adapters

 

[aevan]

Apple sees themselves as product curators. They make the decisions as to what they think the "best" product is for most people, and don't worry so much about the people for whom there would be better engineering trade-offs. For better or worse, that's deeply engrained in their culture.

I agree with that also. That is the fact I like about them. Although, I'm aware that if one day they decide that the "best" product is something I can't use - I'm in trouble. But, honestly, I still don't expect that day to come anytime soon.

Choice is a tricky thing. For example, I remember agonizing over which phone to chose - iPhone 6 or iPhone 6+. Ended up getting the Plus, getting hand aches after prolonged use (something I wasn't able to determine in the store), cursing at Apple forcing me to go through that agony of choosing, going through the trouble of replacing it for the 6, etc. Of course, most people didn't have this problem and knew exactly what they wanted - and I think it's good that they offer two sizes - but I just wanted to give one personal example where choice was, actually, kinda bad for me

Still - I understand some of the people complaining here. I don't have to agree with them, but I do understand them. Sadly, few of them understand the "other side" of the discussion. Tech-geek/power-user is the new elite and everyone else is "someone who just wants to show-off at Starbucks". PC vs console, PC vs Mac, Android vs iPhone, "real pro" vs "casual user" - it's becoming something of a trend.

 

[MH01]

For me? Because I can run all the apps I make a living from - Photoshop, Zbrush, 3D Coat flawlessly, as fast as I can on my iMac 5K - the quad-core Skylake i7 will handle everything with ease, and the super-fast SSD will help me open those 500Gb PSB files faster.

The screen seems to be amazing, bright - important for illustration work. I'm not saying the P3 color gamut is required, but I'm certainly excited to use it.

I can use all of my pro tools on it and have more ports available - I can attach my Intuos Pro (with a cheap adapter), USB-C lightning cable for my iPad Pro (to use Astropad via cable) and still have 2 USB ports available - for my mouse (on my current MBP I have an issue when I connect the Intuos on one port and the iPad Pro via cable - on the other, I have no USB ports left). Even better, when I buy the new Cintiq Pro next year, I will be able to connect it directly to the USB-C port and use one cable for power, usb signal and image instead of 3 (yes, 3!) I needed for my Cintiq Companion (that one device used up half the ports on my previous MacBook Pro, and is one of the reasons I stopped using it).

That's a great example how USB-C/TB3 is helping professionals. The Cintiqs are nothing but professional devices - they are expensive tablets used only by people who make a living with them. And these devices require 3 thick cables and a power brick (I'm not kidding, all these cables and the brick require a separate bag for me!), and now they can use just one, simple, thin cable - and no power brick as the laptop will provide power. Great times.

Also, even with all this desktop-class performance, I will be able to easily carry around this computer around, not only between offices in my studio (the great battery life will help, as I won't have to search for power outlets as I visit each team) but when I work from a different location completely. I currently use my iPad Pro to discuss concept art, but I cannot open ztool and PSD files there. And my current MacBook Pro is a bit heavy, the difference is not big, but you'd ve surprised how many times I lift it and just leave it on the desk, grabbing my iPad. I don't know if that will change with the new MBP, but I do know that I carried the 13" around much more. It's not a necessity, but it is a convenience to have such a portable, and yet a powerful computer.

Finally, I believe the Touch Bar will be useful in Photoshop - I won't have to rely on my Wacom Remote to have a capacitive slider to change the brush size, it will be built in, alongside other options. One less thing to carry around.

In fact, this is something of a dream computer for me. It's how I imagined computers of the future, when I started doing digital work.

I'm a massive fan of TB3 and will be doing some testing later this week when I get mine, when is yours arriving ? I'd like to hear your thoughts and impressions when you finally receive it, please tag me in the feedback

 

[aevan]

I'm a massive fan of TB3 and will be doing some testing later this week when I get mine, when is yours arriving ? I'd like to hear your thoughts and impressions when you finally receive it, please tag me in the feedback

Sadly - not soon. I live in Serbia, and we don't have the ability to order via Apple Store (even online) - only through official Apple retailers. So I pre-ordered a 15" 512Gb/455 Space Gray, but they tell me first shipments won't arrive before late December

Sometimes I really envy a lot of people here, what can I say

I'll be sure to share my impressions when I do get it, though, but by then - you'll already know everything about it I'll try to remember to tag you.

 

[MH01]

You don't want a matte screen, you want to get rid of reflections. A 67% brighter screen and anti-reflective coating are better solutions to the same problem, because they don't destroy the brilliance of colors as matte screens do. Likewise a Retina screen with variable resolutions offers the same amount of pixels and screen real estate on a 15" screen as a standard resolution 17" screen, while being a lot smaller and lighter. And if you really need the screen to be bigger, you can connect two 27" 5K monitors simultaneously. So you see, the new MacBook Pros are indeed far superior to the old **** you use.

The old **** I use ? My dear sir....you have no idea what I use , if you were trying to make a point, sadly I fail to see it.

How about you research AMD 460.....enjoy those twin 5k monitors .... my TB 2 setup absolutely destroys that....
[doublepost=1479076355][/doublepost]

Sadly - not soon. I live in Serbia, and we don't have the ability to order via Apple Store (even online) - only through official Apple retailers. So I pre-ordered a 15" 512Gb/455 Space Gray, but they tell me first shipments won't arrive before late December

Sometimes I really envy a lot of people here, what can I say

I'll be sure to share my impressions when I do get it, though, but by then - you'll already know everything about it I'll try to remember to tag you.

No problem, if you want me to test etc anything just ask, mine will arrive this week, plan to give it a go with a titan x pascal using TB3.... let's see what this beast can do.

 

[aevan]

The old **** I use ? My dear sir....you have no idea what I use , if you were trying to make a point, sadly I fail to see it.

How about you research AMD 460.....enjoy those twin 5k monitors .... my TB 2 setup absolutely destroys that....
[doublepost=1479076355][/doublepost]
No problem, if you want me to test etc anything just ask, mine will arrive this week, plan to give it a go with a titan x pascal using TB3.... let's see what this beast can do.

Sure thing. I'm interested in the standard stuff: heat during heavy workloads, throttling, performance of the new Radeons, etc.

 

[maflynn]

Currently there is a significant pent up demand for new MBP`s, so it will be interesting to see how the "long game" plays out.

Yes, is this a flash in the pan, or a sign of sustained growth, if I was a betting man, I'd say a flash in the pan, but then I was dumbfounded when the reports were coming out that the new MBPs were selling like hot cakes.

I didn't think people would be willing to buy something with less battery, less ports for more money, but go figure.

 

[jackoatmon]

I didn't think people would be willing to buy something with less battery, less ports for more money, but go figure.

You didn't think people would be willing to buy the fastest, most advanced, best display, most badass-looking mass market laptop ever created?

I came over from desktop for this thing. I betcha many, many others are.

 

[maflynn]

You didn't think people would be willing to buy the fastest, most advanced, best display, most badass-looking mass market laptop ever created?

Oh, they'd buy that, but we're talking about the MBP

Seriously, I don't consider it the fastest, Alienware and I believe Razor has faster machines. The display is indeed one of the best, if not the best. badass looking, sorry, I have to disagree with you on that. while it does have elegant lines, the loss of the glowing apple logo only makes the MBP look like any other laptop. It lost its distinctiveness

 

[aevan]

Yes, is this a flash in the pan, or a sign of sustained growth, if I was a betting man, I'd say a flash in the pan, but then I was dumbfounded when the reports were coming out that the new MBPs were selling like hot cakes.

I didn't think people would be willing to buy something with less battery, less ports for more money, but go figure.

As far as I know, the battery life is the same. And it has more ports in practice. Not everyone is so conservative

 

[jackoatmon]

Oh, they'd buy that, but we're talking about the MBP

Seriously, I don't consider it the fastest, Alienware and I believe Razor has faster machines. The display is indeed one of the best, if not the best. badass looking, sorry, I have to disagree with you on that. while it does have elegant lines, the loss of the glowing apple logo only makes the MBP look like any other laptop. It lost its distinctiveness

There's nothing even CLOSE to as fast! Have you read the SSD specs? It's basically a terrabyte of RAM, for all intents and purposes.

There's no doubt – this is going to be the snappiest computer ever. There will be a weird overlap period where there's a laptop that's faster than desktops lol.

And the stupid glowing logo, god that was literally the worst thing about Apple products. The chime, the glowing logo, all this garrish tacky garbage throwback marketing from 10 years ago. Barf

 

[aevan]

Seriously, I don't consider it the fastest, Alienware and I believe Razor has faster machines.

In gaming, yes. We'll see who is faster when benchmarks come out, but it really depends on workflow. It will play Skyrim faster, but we'll see which laptop opens Photoshop files faster or renders faster, etc.

 

[maflynn]

As far as I know, the battery life is the same. And it has more ports in practice. Not everyone is so conservative

Yes, battery life is rated the same, but they did make it with a smaller battery.

 

[aevan]

Yes, battery life is rated the same, but they did make it with a smaller battery.

So?

 

[maflynn]

There's nothing even CLOSE to as fast! Have you read the SSD specs? It's basically a terrabyte of RAM, for all intents and purposes.

No argument there, Apple is on the top of the heap with SSD speeds, but processing and GPU, Alienware is faster.

And the stupid glowing logo, god that was literally the worst thing about Apple products.

You may call the glowing logo stupid, I would call it distintive. It used to be that the MBP would stand out, now it looks just like any other laptop

The chime

Same with the chime, everything that made the mac special has been removed, you may not care, but many of us (especially long term mac users) do care.

 

[jackoatmon]

No argument there, Apple is on the top of the heap with SSD speeds, but processing and GPU, Alienware is faster.


You may call the glowing logo stupid, I would call it distintive. It used to be that the MBP would stand out, now it looks just like any other laptop


Same with the chime, everything that made the mac special has been removed, you may not care, but many of us (especially long term mac users) do care.

So your critique of the device is "I want my logo more glowey", "I refuse to re-eneable the chime in terminal" and "Alienware makes some pile of garbage with a desktop GPU that has no business being there in it"

And I betcha pounds to pennies the software-hardware integration Apple's famous for will make these components outclass superior specs in many cases.

Just buy a desktop if you want a more powerful GPU. This is literally the first time Apple has ever put a decent GPU in a laptop. And they've miraculously kept it within the thermal limitations of a razor-thin device with incredible battery life.

Like dear lord what do you want? Thank goodness the people on this forum have no influence on Apple's design department. This is the coolest machine they've ever built.