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'OpenMac' Promises $399 Headless Mac... But Not From Apple
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This IS a long post, so if you're planning to whine about it and aren't interested, then skip it and move on. It covers some opinions (STAND BACK, PERSONAL OPINIONS ABOUT TO BE OFFERED) and some background info from the guy that released OSx86 on the world at large, somewhat...
I read through about 22 pages of this now 33 and probably 33 page thread (before I hit Submit Reply, of course) and I gotta say, good lord kids, take a break.
I'll toss out my opinions and see what happens.
First, do I think this is a good idea, with Psystar? Who cares, they're trying to capitalize on a money-making idea, can you really fault them for it? Nah, I don't think you can. I think their mistake (the big one so far) is making waves with "preinstalling" Leopard on the hardware, which will certainly be the linchpin that ends up being their undoing.
Is it illegal to build a PC that can run Leopard with a clean install? Of course not, and anyone that thinks or suggests otherwise should just go back to kindergarten and start over again. Could have some moral implications, of course, and it would definitely get you some interesting looks, but that's another story altogether.
Is it illegal to run Leopard on non-Apple labeled hardware? Well, first thing is we'd have to define precisely what "Apple labeled hardware" is in the first place. What does that mean, really? Has that been defined in a legal sense? A sticker of an Apple or the Apple "official" logo? An Apple manufacturing label? What precisely defines Apple-labeled hardware... I can readily and quickly comprehend what Apple-manufactured hardware means, that's easy - but Apple-labeled needs some definite clarification.
In reading through this thread and then finally getting a bit tired of the senseless and childish rants, it seems there's a split so far:
Those that hate the look of the "OpenMac" and those that hate the idea that someone would dare tarnish Apple's supposedly solid and well-built reputation of good quality machines.
Sorry, I ain't buying it - again. That means this: I've owned Apple-manufactured hardware (1 black MacBook, 1 15" MacBook Pro, and 2 20" iMacs, all in a 2 month period, all returned for being defective in various ways, with kernel panics galore, and other issues) and it's simply not all that. Yes, I might be in the minority (as an actual Apple owner, staring at that massive 5% market share, that was a given anyway), so I guess you could say I was in the micro-minority - an Apple owner that was 100% dissatisfied with the product, the OS, the customer service in the Apple Store, and a whole host of other things. Will I buy another piece of Apple hardware? What do you think?
Now the fun part in all of this, and probably the most ironic of all:
In September of 2005 I was the person that "released" the first generic installation DVD of OSX that could be used to install what we named "OSx86" (meaning OSX for x86 hardware) on the world. There were many attempts before that happened, the infamous deadmoo VMWare image that people were writing directly to hard drives. But until a guy named bender12 and I crossed paths, no one - not one person on the planet - had managed to create a "generic installer DVD" that would actually install OSX of any kind on any generic PC and do it successfully.
Well, bender12 was the guy that did it, before anybody else, and I was the guy that took his work and "dropped" it on the community. We had a Test3 release to get bug reports, etc. About 15% of the people that reported in had excellent results and near-100% working installations after putting in that DVD and doing the installation. bender12 took the bug reports from the Test3 release, worked on it for a few days, and then we came out with Release1, and with that release, the number of actual working installs with near-100% functionality jumped from 15% with Test3 to nearly 98% with Release1. This was just on pure Intel hardware, of course - nobody had gotten around to even caring about AMD-based machines just yet since our objective was to closely match the original OSX Intel Developer's kit hardware.
Anyway, I've been keeping tabs on the OSx86Project over the years - the website eventually turned into InsanelyMac and I'm still around at times - so it's interesting to see where bender12's breakthrough and my "mouth" as the frontman and general helper has progressed.
I hope Psystar or some other company will run with the idea but realize it needs to be sold as a compatible piece of hardware, and definitely never cross the line and sell the hardware with OSX preinstalled. That's the mistake that'll kill Psystar.
There is absolutely nothing illegal or illegitimate going on if I or someone else would start marketing compatible OSX hardware. Hell, we (meaning myself and many of the original OSx86Project people) had a contest long ago: build a 100% functional (using OSx86) "Hackintosh" - I'm sure many of you have heard of the $199 Hackintosh from years past. It was a 100% functional duplicate of the OSX Intel Developer kit hardware - even down to the same motherboard with the same TPM on it (just not the same content in the TPM, of course). The cost ended up about $199 and a few pennies, so a fully functional (with the patches applied) OSX machine for under $200 running off a Celeron D with the necessary SSE3 support and an Intel GMA950.
It just worked.
And it worked a helluva lot better than any of the 4 real Macs that I owned in the past.
Am I rooting for Psystar? Yeah, I guess I am, in many respects. But they've already doomed themselves by marketing it with the option to preinstall Leopard. That's the worst possible thing they could have done, and it'll be their undoing - it probably already has undone them, actually.
Would I buy one from 'em? Hell no, because I can build better. I could build a dual core Celeron today, with parts from Fry's down the road from me, SSE3 support, a 320GB hard drive, Intel GMA950 video (maybe even an x3100), and all the supporting hardware to go with it for less than $300 or so. I see many members here listing non-Apple-labeled hardware - which is perfectly legit, in actuality - and they probably bought OSX off a store shelf so they're covered. As one member's sig shows, he's not into piracy, but he is into breaking EULAs. Funny stuff...
I wonder where my efforts over the years will continue to push the community. I have no idea, but I saw all this coming in the summer of 2005 when I first got involved in the OSx86Project. I knew over time that the work I and bender12 and deadmoo and many of the others, especially the kernel hackers, would lead, and so far it's pretty much right on course. All it takes - meaning the major floodgates opening - is a company that would take a stance and make a machine that's compatible and sell it on that basis. Buy the hardware, go to an Apple Store and buy a retail copy of Leopard, go home and install it, done.
Could have been Psystar, but they're already on the way out, it seems. We'll see what happens, and I'll be keeping an eye on things.
Have fun, always...
I read through about 22 pages of this now 33 and probably 33 page thread (before I hit Submit Reply, of course) and I gotta say, good lord kids, take a break.
I'll toss out my opinions and see what happens.
First, do I think this is a good idea, with Psystar? Who cares, they're trying to capitalize on a money-making idea, can you really fault them for it? Nah, I don't think you can. I think their mistake (the big one so far) is making waves with "preinstalling" Leopard on the hardware, which will certainly be the linchpin that ends up being their undoing.
Is it illegal to build a PC that can run Leopard with a clean install? Of course not, and anyone that thinks or suggests otherwise should just go back to kindergarten and start over again. Could have some moral implications, of course, and it would definitely get you some interesting looks, but that's another story altogether.
Is it illegal to run Leopard on non-Apple labeled hardware? Well, first thing is we'd have to define precisely what "Apple labeled hardware" is in the first place. What does that mean, really? Has that been defined in a legal sense? A sticker of an Apple or the Apple "official" logo? An Apple manufacturing label? What precisely defines Apple-labeled hardware... I can readily and quickly comprehend what Apple-manufactured hardware means, that's easy - but Apple-labeled needs some definite clarification.
In reading through this thread and then finally getting a bit tired of the senseless and childish rants, it seems there's a split so far:
Those that hate the look of the "OpenMac" and those that hate the idea that someone would dare tarnish Apple's supposedly solid and well-built reputation of good quality machines.
Sorry, I ain't buying it - again. That means this: I've owned Apple-manufactured hardware (1 black MacBook, 1 15" MacBook Pro, and 2 20" iMacs, all in a 2 month period, all returned for being defective in various ways, with kernel panics galore, and other issues) and it's simply not all that. Yes, I might be in the minority (as an actual Apple owner, staring at that massive 5% market share, that was a given anyway), so I guess you could say I was in the micro-minority - an Apple owner that was 100% dissatisfied with the product, the OS, the customer service in the Apple Store, and a whole host of other things. Will I buy another piece of Apple hardware? What do you think?
Now the fun part in all of this, and probably the most ironic of all:
In September of 2005 I was the person that "released" the first generic installation DVD of OSX that could be used to install what we named "OSx86" (meaning OSX for x86 hardware) on the world. There were many attempts before that happened, the infamous deadmoo VMWare image that people were writing directly to hard drives. But until a guy named bender12 and I crossed paths, no one - not one person on the planet - had managed to create a "generic installer DVD" that would actually install OSX of any kind on any generic PC and do it successfully.
Well, bender12 was the guy that did it, before anybody else, and I was the guy that took his work and "dropped" it on the community. We had a Test3 release to get bug reports, etc. About 15% of the people that reported in had excellent results and near-100% working installations after putting in that DVD and doing the installation. bender12 took the bug reports from the Test3 release, worked on it for a few days, and then we came out with Release1, and with that release, the number of actual working installs with near-100% functionality jumped from 15% with Test3 to nearly 98% with Release1. This was just on pure Intel hardware, of course - nobody had gotten around to even caring about AMD-based machines just yet since our objective was to closely match the original OSX Intel Developer's kit hardware.
Anyway, I've been keeping tabs on the OSx86Project over the years - the website eventually turned into InsanelyMac and I'm still around at times - so it's interesting to see where bender12's breakthrough and my "mouth" as the frontman and general helper has progressed.
I hope Psystar or some other company will run with the idea but realize it needs to be sold as a compatible piece of hardware, and definitely never cross the line and sell the hardware with OSX preinstalled. That's the mistake that'll kill Psystar.
There is absolutely nothing illegal or illegitimate going on if I or someone else would start marketing compatible OSX hardware. Hell, we (meaning myself and many of the original OSx86Project people) had a contest long ago: build a 100% functional (using OSx86) "Hackintosh" - I'm sure many of you have heard of the $199 Hackintosh from years past. It was a 100% functional duplicate of the OSX Intel Developer kit hardware - even down to the same motherboard with the same TPM on it (just not the same content in the TPM, of course). The cost ended up about $199 and a few pennies, so a fully functional (with the patches applied) OSX machine for under $200 running off a Celeron D with the necessary SSE3 support and an Intel GMA950.
It just worked.
And it worked a helluva lot better than any of the 4 real Macs that I owned in the past.
Am I rooting for Psystar? Yeah, I guess I am, in many respects. But they've already doomed themselves by marketing it with the option to preinstall Leopard. That's the worst possible thing they could have done, and it'll be their undoing - it probably already has undone them, actually.
Would I buy one from 'em? Hell no, because I can build better. I could build a dual core Celeron today, with parts from Fry's down the road from me, SSE3 support, a 320GB hard drive, Intel GMA950 video (maybe even an x3100), and all the supporting hardware to go with it for less than $300 or so. I see many members here listing non-Apple-labeled hardware - which is perfectly legit, in actuality - and they probably bought OSX off a store shelf so they're covered. As one member's sig shows, he's not into piracy, but he is into breaking EULAs. Funny stuff...
I wonder where my efforts over the years will continue to push the community. I have no idea, but I saw all this coming in the summer of 2005 when I first got involved in the OSx86Project. I knew over time that the work I and bender12 and deadmoo and many of the others, especially the kernel hackers, would lead, and so far it's pretty much right on course. All it takes - meaning the major floodgates opening - is a company that would take a stance and make a machine that's compatible and sell it on that basis. Buy the hardware, go to an Apple Store and buy a retail copy of Leopard, go home and install it, done.
Could have been Psystar, but they're already on the way out, it seems. We'll see what happens, and I'll be keeping an eye on things.
Have fun, always...
I'm not confusing anything. A car is not necessity. A computer is not a necessity. While todays society would certainly make things extremely difficult for those without. They are not needed. Because others want to spend more on luxuries, what does that have to do with the rest of you?
Food, clothing and shelter are necessities.
What do you think I was alluding to
i didn't read all 33 pages to find out if others were having this problem,
but it seems that their site is down? anybody else having this problem?
but it seems that their site is down? anybody else having this problem?
So maybe some people with hackintosh experience could answer this. If the Psystar box is compiled from the most compatible parts that have standard driver support from Leopard... is it more likely that updates etc should go ahead without issue?
I've been a Mac user for a good quarter of a century now, and for the first time in my life I've really had enough... when I bought my new MacBook Pro last week, I was unhappy about it. I knew I was getting an underpowered machine for the price. I've been contemplating getting a Mac mini for some time as a media center / file server, but looking at the price and comparable hardware... I just can't push myself to buy one. The Psystar actually seemed like a glistening beacon of hope (even if it didn't come pre-installed with leopard) that I could get a smallish box without enough expandability that I could run OS X on. I really hope Apple takes this opportunity to reassess its negligence to long standing desire for a xMac... there has to be a solution that doesn't cannibalize Mac Pro sales.
I've been a Mac user for a good quarter of a century now, and for the first time in my life I've really had enough... when I bought my new MacBook Pro last week, I was unhappy about it. I knew I was getting an underpowered machine for the price. I've been contemplating getting a Mac mini for some time as a media center / file server, but looking at the price and comparable hardware... I just can't push myself to buy one. The Psystar actually seemed like a glistening beacon of hope (even if it didn't come pre-installed with leopard) that I could get a smallish box without enough expandability that I could run OS X on. I really hope Apple takes this opportunity to reassess its negligence to long standing desire for a xMac... there has to be a solution that doesn't cannibalize Mac Pro sales.
A damn fine first post (I assume it's your first?).
I'm of exactly the same opinion; it's fun to tinker, but don't for a second think your Hackintosh should be used as a produciton tool. Every update broke both the OS and Logic and for me, and that is a deal breaker. Hence why I spent what money I had and bought a second hand Power Mac G5.
Do I need bleeding edge 3D graphics? No, I'm not a gamer.
Can it run Logic? Yes.
Can it run Ableton Live? Yes.
Can it run Final Cut Studio? Yes.
Can it run Photoshop? Yes.
Can I be as creative as I want on it? Yes.
Does it run Leopard? Yes.
Do I want to upgrade it? Yes. The grass is always greener.
Do I need to upgrade it? No.
Aside from some bearings rattling as a result of them having gone in 1 inlet fan on the powersupply (easily fixed by jamming twistix throught cheesegrater
) it's got no problems whatsoever and has decent mileage left in it.I can fully understand the gripes people have with the lack of upgradeable graphics card in a consumer level Mac, but as I'm not a gamer it doesn't bother me too much. I'd like more grunt graphics wise for HD stuff, but that's it. That doesn't overly bother me either as I don't have an HD telly.
This thread is getting ridiculous, so let's end it here:
We all know that any non-Apple manufactured computer doesn't get sprinkled with iFairy Dust by the Apple worker elves prior to being boxed and shipped out of Steve's Magic Cupertino Workshop and, in turn, will never run Mac OS X properly.
End of discussion.
We all know that any non-Apple manufactured computer doesn't get sprinkled with iFairy Dust by the Apple worker elves prior to being boxed and shipped out of Steve's Magic Cupertino Workshop and, in turn, will never run Mac OS X properly.
End of discussion.
Well, I'll set myself back a few months.
I'm actually saving for a MacMini and a hackintosh. I'm about to pull the trigger on a PSU... she's a beauty: http://www.frozencpu.com/images/products/main/psu-192.jpg and not too expensive. You can nary find a 700W PSU for $125 and that one is $150. I'll take it, thanks. My current PSU is struggling to power two HDDs, two DVD drives and and Geforce 5500FX. How lame is that? Oh, well, it came with the case.
-Clive
I can tell you one thing about Hack Pro (or iHack). Once you get past initial hurdle of simple mistakes, slight learning curve with Terminal and system files and how to update (Pacifist, etc), you fly. And then it is sweet sweet MacLand. My Hack Pro is about 70% of today's 8-core mac in geekbench scores (about 290 in XBench without hard disk). And all in little less than $1100 (with 22" samsung BW226 screen and original Leopard Disc). My PB G4, which I have used like crazy for last 4 years, has completely retired, other than occasional trips and presentations.
I am (was) willing to buy (and support) Apple built system of this caliber but I am not a fanboy and I am (was) not going to spent 2300 bucks on Mac Pro. as the name says, it is for PRO. Bring something b/w mini and Pro. Period.
I will relegate this machine to WinDoze and get a well-supported Mac.
Thanks. This is EXACTLY why illegal hacks and clones can't exist in the Mac marketplace. Maybe in 5 years when Apple busts MS out of the water, but not now.
Looks like my equation was right;
By my reckoning the equation follows thus;
(m + f) x n = p
Where;
m = media hype
f = free publicity from heated rumour site arguments
n = number of orders for vapourware generated by m and f
p = plush Caribbean bolthole with huge pot of cash
Beautifully stated. I've been a long-time project OSx86 observer (never a contributor as I don't have that sort of knowledge) and it's been a pretty amazing expereince and an even more amazing community.
I think the most important thing to note is that these folks are NOT pirates, nor are the malicious. Their goal is to prove that it can be done... and it wasn't done when the first soul managed to install OS X on a generic PC, it wasn't even done when Netkas' group managed to install a vanilla kernal. It will be done when OS installation and operation is just as simple, stable, and updateable on generic hardware as it is on a Mac.
It seems like a noble goal to me.
It's very similar to the iPhone Dev team who brought 3rd party software to the iPhone. After all their hard work and huge following Apple has finally decided to bring 3rd party SW to the iPhone. (Now to get them to seel the iPhone unlocked!) Most people see the iPhone Dev team as heros. Why shouldn't the OSx86 community be regarded the same? They are in my mind.
-Clive
If you don't see a lack of quality with Dell, you are living in a fantasy world. Either that or you don't really have any experience with Dell, they are craptastic these days. I order computers for my work place and the last 8 Dell machines we got in had to have the motherboards replaced.
If apple would have 2 brain cells more, there would be no need to buy or to produce a mac clone but it seems mr. jobs thinks people are all the same stupid ! Just put an apple logo on a machine and sell it like 2 machines.
sorry, I think they better should change their "company politics" as fast as they can !
sorry, I think they better should change their "company politics" as fast as they can !
Well, those are my comments and I don't see anything wrong with them. Would you care to enlighten me?
Apple does not chose hardware at random. For better or worse, Apple chooses a few particular pieces of proven hardware and continues to use them until something better comes along at a similar price. They do not mix and match chipsets as prices fluctuate like Dell or Gateway do. You know each 24" iMac in a given cycle will be identical to the one before it and the one after it with the obvious exception of BTO items and with the less obvious items like hard drives and memory (each of which has two or three vendors providing these components). Because of this, Apple can concentrate on making Mac OS work with this much smaller array of hardware products relative to making Windows work with every piece of hardware ever created.
That's the Point...
Clones were producing better products than the original company! Without this competition, Apple has all but ignored its customer demands.
Clones were producing better products than the original company! Without this competition, Apple has all but ignored its customer demands.
lololol, yeh OK. Just like Fairlight, Deviance and all the other pioneers of Warez, were just doing it to prove that i can be done. How foolish of us to think otherwise.
They are pirates, and hacking closed software. End of story.
Perhaps this move by Psystar will convince Apple there is a market for a moderately priced, headless Mac that users can upgrade with Apple qualified hardware.
I suggest you keep an open mind and that experiences vary from person to person. I sadly haven't had the same Dell or Apple horror stories that you might have.
Sadly OpenMac and OSx86 are the only options to create competition with Apple.
A damn fine first post (I assume it's your first?).
I'm of exactly the same opinion; it's fun to tinker, but don't for a second think your Hackintosh should be used as a produciton tool. Every update broke both the OS and Logic and for me, and that is a deal breaker. Hence why I spent what money I had and bought a second hand Power Mac G5.
Do I need bleeding edge 3D graphics? No, I'm not a gamer.
Can it run Logic? Yes.
Can it run Ableton Live? Yes.
Can it run Final Cut Studio? Yes.
Can it run Photoshop? Yes.
Can I be as creative as I want on it? Yes.
Does it run Leopard? Yes.
Do I want to upgrade it? Yes. The grass is always greener.
Do I need to upgrade it? No.
Aside from some bearings rattling as a result of them having gone in 1 inlet fan on the powersupply (easily fixed by jamming twistix throught cheesegrater
I can fully understand the gripes people have with the lack of upgradeable graphics card in a consumer level Mac, but as I'm not a gamer it doesn't bother me too much. I'd like more grunt graphics wise for HD stuff, but that's it. That doesn't overly bother me either as I don't have an HD telly.
Thanks for the kudos on my first post.
t might just be because I'm a new Mac owner, but I still don't understand the need to tear apart those wishing to save a few bucks and have a good time learning something new. It's really not a big deal, and the average consumer will never, ever be able to keep up with the knowledge of maintaining a working Hackintosh. It's for serious geeks, only.
I agree with everything you posted. I'm a web designer, and everything I need my iMac for, it does beautifully. And I have no problems watching 1080p video with the 256mb ATI HD Pro card that came with it. The only thing I really need to keep upgraded is RAM, and I've already maxed out at what's probably an overkill of 4Gb.
Should the system need to be updated, I can resell this model for a pretty good price (MAcs hold their value amazingly, I had no idea before researching it when I was a PC-only user) and move up for a smaller investment.
I may be one of the only ones here, but if I hadn't built and patched my own Hackintoshes, I probably would never have made the move. Apple actually gained a reasonably devoted customer inadvertently that way.
I'm sure I'm not the only one...
Get your facts straight, and go somewhere else, please. This is a Mac forum not a lets whine about how my hardware didn't work. So go build your own PC hotshot, since you are obviously a computer god. Btw, the marketshare is well past 5%. And oh, I'll start valuing your opinion when you've been using Macs for 15 years.