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so 1080p isnt better than 720p? Thanks for that information...

Technically, 1080p is better than 720p. 2,073,600 pixels verses 921,600 pixels is sharper. Period.

However, in the real world, most of the time 720p APPEARS to be equal to 1080p.

Compression, screen size, screen quality, etc. has more of an impact than resolution.
 
Technically, 1080p is better than 720p. 2,073,600 pixels verses 921,600 pixels is sharper. Period.

However, in the real world, most of the time 720p APPEARS to be equal to 1080p.

Compression, screen size, screen quality, etc. has more of an impact than resolution.

So a bluray on a 52in+ tv will look better at 1080p than it will at 720p? at normal viewing distance

Why is it not possible to DL 1080p movies?? who cares about compression then? i want to DL it not stream... what size is a 1080p 90min movie(uncompressed)?? anyone?
 
Also noted is that fact that AirPlay is currently audio-only, even for customers running iOS 4.2 betas on their iPads and hoping to push video to the new device. Full AirPlay implementation won't be available until November, when iOS 4.2 sees its public launch.

Apple SDK 4.2 Release Notes:
Media Player Framework
Applications using MPMoviePlayerController and MPMoviePlayerViewController to play movies now automatically benefit from AirPlay for Videos, provided they use the standard transport controls. However, video streams that rely on cookies for credentials are not supported and should be passed in the URL.

It is interesting that Apple states this in the 4.2 release notes. So I guess AirPlay video won't come until 4.2 for ATV comes out?
 
Technically, 1080p is better than 720p. 2,073,600 pixels verses 921,600 pixels is sharper. Period.

However, in the real world, most of the time 720p APPEARS to be equal to 1080p.

Compression, screen size, screen quality, etc. has more of an impact than resolution.

Yes, 1080p is better, specially if you watch BR discs. I have a Pioneer Elite 60" sitting at 12 feet and I can easily see the difference between 1080p and 720p.

While I do understand Apple not offering it since streams are 720p for the most part, the option of 1080p would be nice for folks that want to transcode their media keeping the native resolution.
Maybe Apple wants people to buy the MacMini if they want to go that route. I can totally see this happening.
I am wondering if I can stream 1080p and the new ATV down convert it on the fly to 720p. Does anybody now about this?
 
So a bluray on a 52in+ tv will look better at 1080p than it will at 720p? at normal viewing distance

Why is it not possible to DL 1080p movies?? who cares about compression then? i want to DL it not stream... what size is a 1080p 90min movie(uncompressed)?? anyone?

A 1080p movie uncompressed would probably be in the Terabyte range.

Using the compression level in Blu-Ray (~25 megabits per second), you can get a full movie in around 20 gigabytes (no, I didn't do the math, its just an estimate).

It is possible to download 1080p movies. There's no question about that. But streaming them (downloading them at least as fast as it plays) is tough. In order to stream a 25 megabit video file, you need more than 25 megabits of bandwidth (accounting overhead). Since the average person's internet is probably (again, just a guess) hovering around 6 megabits, you have to ask yourself a simple question:

at 5 megabits per second, what looks better: 1080P or 720p?

The answer is, of course, 720p, which is why Apple uses it. It's a good tradeoff that doesn't result in hundreds of thousands of angry tech support calls when Joe Blow in Oklahoma can't stream a movie over his shaky DSL line.

Streaming 1080p is only worth it if you've got the bandwidth to support it, and only people willing to pay an absolute premium on internet connectivity have that.
 
You right the only thing that is real 1080p is bluray. Everything else is a wanna be, trying to be 1080p. 720p will do just fine for AppleTV and even video games. That is why most video games on the Xbox 360 and PS3 are in native 720p resolution and not 1080p. But this is mostly because of performance issues since both of these consoles have low video ram.

Everything that has 1080 vertical lines of resolution is "1080P" Bluray just looks better because it has a higher bit rate.
 
Yes, see above post.

I have a marketing background with a BS in marketing.

Most people will see a difference between products if they believe there should be a difference. This explains why most people claim to see a difference between 720p and 1080p on a mid-grade 42" screen.

Double blind studies show otherwise as they take preconceived ideas out of the equation.

In Social Psychology we call this a Self-serving bias.
 
Yes, 1080p is better, specially if you watch BR discs. I have a Pioneer Elite 60" sitting at 12 feet and I can easily see the difference between 1080p and 720p.

1. You are using Blu-Ray.

2. You have a 60" screen.

3. You have a high quality screen.

You have hit a home run and the difference is REAL.

Yet very few of us have that set-up. I highly doubt if 1% of Apple's target market have the high quality set-up that you own. I don't.

So why would Apple spend addition money to go after that small group?

As you stated a Mac Mini is a better choice for your needs. I am not being sarcastic, but if you can afford to purchase that set-up, and I assume you have an equal quality sound system, you can afford to buy the Mac-Mini option.
 
Technically, 1080p is better than 720p. 2,073,600 pixels verses 921,600 pixels is sharper. Period.

However, in the real world, most of the time 720p APPEARS to be equal to 1080p.

Compression, screen size, screen quality, etc. has more of an impact than resolution.

I did a bunch of tests with my Macbook Pro hooked to my Samsung LED 40" tv changing the screen display from 1080p to 720p back and forth a lot with different videos. From my couch, only 6 feet away, neither I nor my wife could tell the difference. From 3 feet, sitting on the coffee table, I could see the difference. With moving images, neither of us could ever tell the difference. I have 20-20 vision with no need for contacts/glasses so it's not like I can't see what's going on.

The truth is, it's really hard to get any value from 1080p over 720p unless you have a REALLY big tv and a short viewing distance. However, if you're in this situation, normal TV viewing gets really strange and awkward because the tv is just too big to be comfortable.

Equally important to compression and screen quality, I believe, is the recording quality. Watching Prince of Persia on DVD, you see a lot of scenes where the color is blocky and there are nasty blurry-square artifacts around the characters sometimes, probably due to a poor job dealing with the green-screen. This movie is BRAND NEW, and they simply released a bad looking video. 1080p and the best TV in the world can't help you with that. It's sad, but I often find the most modern content providers don't give the best picture that they can even within 720p.

Watching shows like Dancing with the Stars in 720p, their cameras are perfect. The colors are smooth, everything is in focus, it's great. Then I watch a TV show like Law and Order in 720p, and I see blocky colors and segments out of focus. My TV is plenty clear enough to pick this up. If they were broadcasting in 1080p, then all I'd get would be more detailed blur spots.


TLDR version: Unless you're watching Pixar films on a 46" or bigger TV from 6' or less away, you're not going to be able to tell the difference between 1080p than 720p.
 
1. You are using Blu-Ray.

2. You have a 60" screen.

3. You have a high quality screen.

You have hit a home run and the difference is REAL.

Yet very few of us have that set-up. I highly doubt if 1% of Apple's target market have the high quality set-up that you own. I don't.

So why would Apple spend addition money to go after that small group?

As you stated a Mac Mini is a better choice for your needs. I am not being sarcastic, but if you can afford to purchase that set-up, and I assume you have an equal quality sound system, you can afford to buy the Mac-Mini option.

Sure I can buy the Mini but I feel is a waste of $$$ just for a HTPC option. I am not sure if there is a real limitation on the A4 chip but I heard it can handle 1080p from some sites.
That said the big obstacle of the Mini is the fact the Front Row UI is not as simple and nice as ATV. I have kids and my wife is not a tech person, so simplicity is the key.

I disagreed with you about folks that have 1080p sets as a small group. It has been few years that 1080p is the marketing choice and companies are making and selling thousands of sets like that. Also prices for larger screens like 50" and 60' + continue to drop as the tech evolves.
 
1. EVERY double blind test has shown that people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at normal viewing distances on screens less than 50".

That's great. So my TV is 15" too large. And every time we want to see the good 1080 video at my house, we have to hook the camcorder directly to the 1080HDTV because the :apple:TV version obviously doesn't look as good. Perhaps we're all triply-blind here?

2. On screens large than 50", you can only tell a small difference on ONLY the highest quality models.

What does that matter? On every new 10.6 OS mac sold, we have features like grand central, that the vast majority of people don't max out. So was it stupid for Apple to build that in? How about Tethering before AT&T could support it? Stupid? Why bother with Facetime in the next iPads when 100% of current iPad users can't use it?

People want what they want. My 1080HDTV is OLD, but still native at higher than 720p. My second HD camcorder is 2+ years old, but still native at higher than 720p. I have a very old iPod that was capable of lossless audio and we still don't have lossless audio in the iTunes store.

Some people want the best quality of things... especially when the best quality of something like this doesn't have to cost any more than the "good enough" level, as evidenced by lot of other hardware boxes selling for <$100 with 1080p hardware baked in.

Following your logic, anything technological that doesn't exist today has little purpose in being developed. 100% of the people who can't use it today have spoken.

3. Experts again state that compression is a bigger issue in quality than resolution. Given the current bandwidth, 1080p requires more compression than 720p. That is why to most reviewers ATV 720p rentals look better than DirecTV's 1080p. I have both and always choose ATV rentals when given the choice. (To be honest, when I have the time, I wait for the Netflix Blu-Ray).

No, you can compress video of various resolutions at any level, or leave them all uncompressed. It's not a requirement to compress 1080p at a higher level than 720p.

If you want to argue this point, the reason for greater compression is file sizes. More compression yields smaller file sizes, which more efficiently download and store in smaller spaces. But if we go down that path, SD quality videos compressed at the exact same level of 720p will result in smaller file sizes and even more efficient streaming. And 320 x 200 video would store in even smaller sizes and be even quicker to download.

Apples to Apples goes like this: 720p is video pictures at a resolution of 1280 x 720. 1080p is video pictures at a resolution of 1920 x 1080. If we were shooting pictures with a digital camera that were important to us, which resolution would we want to use? Is a retina display useless in iPhone because it is higher resolution in the same frame?

Compression, etc do matter, but if other variables are apples to apples- optimized compression levels for source material, higher resolution wins every time it's displayed on something big enough to fully see the details it provides.

4. Most consumer grade camcorders CAN'T exploit the quality of 1080p. Compression, chip quality, etc. have more impact than resolution.
Believe what you wish. See answer to #1. I guess everyone at my house just has really good eyes.

5. The only consumer product than currently can exploit the higher quality of 1080p is Blu-Ray. (See point 1.)
Hmm, well what about satt & cable VOD? Roku: http://shop.roku.com/Roku-Digital-Video-Player-Options-W5.aspx WDTV: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/index.asp?cat=30 and streaming services like: http://www.vudu.com/ Do you need more? Because more are out there, and even more are on the way before end of year.

So who is being the jerk about demanding a spec than currently and in the foreseeable future is nothing but a MARKETING ploy.

Again, I asked for someone who had received one of these to test to see if it could do something I'm interested in. It doesn't even matter if 1080p is a marketing ploy. It doesn't matter if I can see the difference or not. I'm interested in pushing years of 1080HD Camcorders home movies to my HD via some kind of iTunes-friendly connection, without down-converting them to 720p30fps or 960 x 540.

You come back like I've crapped on your kid or something, and then sling a bunch of drivel or outright falsehoods above like it somehow personally hurts you that some people might want a piece of hardware to do a little more than specs. What's it to you?

If this one can do something important to me, I'll buy it to replace :apple:TV I already own. If it can't, I'll wait or seek something else. How does that hurt you in any way? Congratulations if you are happy with things exactly as Apple decides to serve them to you. There's nothing wrong with hoping such things can do a little more.
 
Equally important to compression and screen quality, I believe, is the recording quality.

Huge +1

I purchased HD-DVD the month it was released. I then purchased a PS3 two months after it was released. Most of the early releases were horrible with a minimal difference with DVD's 480p. The biggest difference I noticed was color fidelity and sound quality and not resolution.

That has changed as the studios do a better job today. However, they still have a way to go.
 
i think i'm going to by an Xbox 360 S for $100 more. More content, ESPN3 and games. I want Apple to do well here, but the content just isn't there.

Don't forget the yearly gold subscription you will have to buy...and that cost is going up...not down at the end of the year...PS3 is a better option at this point..
 
Delivery slipped to Oct 5

Bummer. I got a notice from Apple that my AppleTV had shipped on Monday Sep 27. When I checked the tracking info it had an expected delivery date of Thurs Sep30 by 4:30pm. Yesterday when I checked, it had arrived in Anchorage Alaska from Chinea but the expected delivery date had changed to Oct 5 by 4:30. ;-( Today, it is still sitting in Alaska.

Bummer,

Jim
 
Yes, see above post.

I have a marketing background with a BS in marketing.

Most people will see a difference between products if they believe there should be a difference. This explains why most people claim to see a difference between 720p and 1080p on a mid-grade 42" screen.

Double blind studies show otherwise as they take preconceived ideas out of the equation.

I also have a BS in marketing, and I run my own marketing consulting company and have a long, very successful career in marketing. You seem to forget the basics like "know they customer" and "the customer is always right". When I was in school, and in all the continuing education and experience since, I've never come across something that says "whatever Apple says or delivers is THE right thing for all potential buyers".

I could have saved 4-years of college if someone would have just said, "all you need to know about marketing is this: whatever Apple says goes." Too bad you weren't around to set me straight then.
 
I disagreed with you about folks that have 1080p sets as a small group.

I never said that very few people own 1080p sets. I said very few people own large HIGH QUALITY 1080p sets.

I will not get into a spitting match about which models are which. However, I will say that that over 90 % of the 1080p sets sold are low or medium quality models. There are very few videophile sets sold as they are still very expensive.

Please note that I am NOT saying that 90% of the 1080p models are junk. In fact my Sony KDL-46Z4100/B | 46" BRAVIA® Z Series LCD Flat Panel HDTV is only a medium grade set. It is very good but it is not videophile quality.

Still none of my family nor friends own a better quality model.

Again, given my marketing background, most people tend to over estimate the quality of the products that they own.
 
I have a question regarding resolution. on my cable I get some channels with 720p stations and 1080. The 1080p stations looks better and sharper, whats weird is my tv is 720 max......is this due to compression?

There's all kinds of possibilities. My first guess though would be that going from higher resolution to lower display resolution always yields a maximized picture quality, compared to going from- say- a lower resolution and scaling it up to a higher display resolution (in which pixels must be invented). I would guess that your TV has a really good down-conversion circuit.
 
I also have a BS in marketing, and I run my own marketing consulting company and have a long, very successful career in marketing. You seem to forget the basics like "know they customer" and "the customer is always right". When I was in school, and in all the continuing education and experience since, I've never come across something that says "whatever Apple says or delivers is THE right thing for all potential buyers"..

I am in FULL agreement with this statement!!!!

That is why Vizio is selling so many of their low quality 1080p models. People believe that it is better.

This is why you should admire Apple for doing what is right instead of confusing people with specmanship.
 
So a bluray on a 52in+ tv will look better at 1080p than it will at 720p? at normal viewing distance

Why is it not possible to DL 1080p movies?? who cares about compression then? i want to DL it not stream... what size is a 1080p 90min movie(uncompressed)?? anyone?

It is possible to DL 1080p movies. Every VOD channel on satt/cable that is 1080p is downloading a 1080p video to your satt/cable box. Services like youtube have amateur 1080p content. Services like VUDU: http://www.vudu.com/ have professionally created 1080p content for download. It's out there.

And before someone comes back with a biased answer by answering you literally (with actually uncompressed file sizes), they should also do the same with 720p as uncompressed file sizes. Or, they should share 1080p optimized compressed files vs. 720p optimized compressed files. Certainly the 1080p file will be larger, just like a lossless audio file will be larger than compressed MP3 or AAC file.
 
Another thing I would like to ask anyone who knows is about converting movies.

I currently use Handbrake, but this has not been updated for ages.

Anyone have any alternative offerings I could look at? I may cover this in a future video.

Run, don't walk to iflicksapp.com

It tags video, converts and puts it into iTunes.

It works very well with a watch folder and can deal with a dynamic conversion queue.

I've been using it for about a month without any issues. I've tried a bunch of automation ideas, but none worked very well.

lb
 
i still don't understand what the point of this device is?

The only reason to purchase this device is if you've completely locked yourself into the Apple ecosystem.

For the rest of us sane folks, get an equally-priced WD TV or the tons of other media players that let you play any format you want without forcing you to do live conversions or streaming. You won't even be limited to 720p either so you can, you know, choose to use 1080p videos.
 
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