Palm Opens Up Mojo SDK to All App Developers

[parapup]

Doubtful.


And there is almost no chance that the pre would be able to handle this. Simple augmented reality may be possible on the pre, but anything that needs to analyse the video may be to much.

As a reply to those who said that the game augument isn't important has to realize that these type of apps are direct dirivitives of games, using game api's in real world apps.

Hmm - curious why you think the Pre won't be able to handle this given it uses same/similar CPU and GPU as the 3GS. Are you ruling out the possibility that Palm will, down the road get out native API or optimize (JIT) JavaScript to go nearly as fast as Native?

One has to remember that webOS is fresh start - it will take time for the APIs to get more mature and rich.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Assuming it has a GPS, compass, accelerometer, and access to the camera, I don't see why not. It didn't appear to do anything too intensive.

The Pre does not have a magnetometer.


Lethal

 

[diamond.g]

Doubtful.

See my earlier comments, this is what is referred to as augmented reality.

I would not be lying to say that many iphone developers including myself are looking into and will have quite a few apps like this for the iphone.

And there is almost no chance that the pre would be able to handle this. Simple augmented reality may be possible on the pre, but anything that needs to analyse the video may be to much.

As a reply to those who said that the game augument isn't important has to realize that these type of apps are direct dirivitives of games, using game api's in real world apps.

Why would you need to do that (the bold part)? Unless you are looking for live information on something you are pointing at (which in the example given you don't) you just need to know where you are (GPS) and where you are pointing (compass) and quite possibly what orientation you are in (accelerometer). If you are looking to get more information (say looking at a restaurant menu to get say maybe reviews) wouldn't you just offload that image processing task to the same server you are asking to get information from?

 

[kdarling]

Why people keep coming back to this argument is beyond me. I DON'T WANT TO PLAY 3D GAMES ON MY PHONE.

Bingo. A lot of people don't care that much about games. Especially on a device with no physical game controls.

I also suspect that a lot of the talk about convergence comes from those who can't afford a lot of different devices, or they're at college, or on the road a lot.

I still like having a separate GPS in my cars, and having it available all the time in my handheld is also cool, but not necessary for me. Others mileage may vary.

So there's certainly a use for convergence, and it's handy, but it's not the deciding factor for everyone, or even most, judging from the sales of other phones.

Why would you need to do that (the bold part)?

Depends on the augmented reality application.

You're correct that for apps like directional pointing or general sight-seeing augmentation, video analysis isn't necessary.

However, for games that watch for a place marker (or markers) on a table, in order to know exactly where to overlay video objects, the device has to first use its camera to recognize the marker locations and orientation.

Here are some video examples of using markers.

 

[aristotle]

Summary: iPhone can do more serious gaming and Pre can't. Pre Fail.

Why people keep coming back to this argument is beyond me. I DON'T WANT TO PLAY 3D GAMES ON MY PHONE. There I said it. I had an iPhone 3G for a year and bought games only to be dissapointed with the user interface (no controls). Tilt controls are only tolerable to a degree and ruin many games. Ironically the game I played the most on my iPhone 3G was Mafia Wars along with Uno, Scrabble,etc. which can EASILY be done on the Pre.

Wow. You either have your head in the sand as a Palm Pre fanboy or you have no idea how software is written. This is not just an issue with 3D games. What about Google Earth? What about other applications that could potentially make use of the 3D chip that is in the Pre. What about code to perform sound editing and transformation? Photo editing? I could go on. None of these are currently possible to do either at all or efficiently without a C/C++ API.

Most of those games that you mentioned are easily doable within a browser without any special SDK. Mojo is a joke.

 

[BVeritas]

Mojo is a joke.

"I knew that webOS development was based on HTML, JavaScript, and CSS, but I was hoping there was a way, some way, any way, to tap into advanced hardware features and software technologies. Chief on my list is OpenGL, which is a requirement for serious games. GL even became necessary for some of my simpler apps, like Kaleido and Butterfly Collection, since basic software rendering just isn’t responsive enough for smooth animations at decent speeds. You need to tap into the graphics hardware with OpenGL ES.

Sadly, my suspicions were confirmed — there is no way for developers to tap into OpenGL ES using the webOS SDK, despite the fact that the hardware supports it. So that’s a major blow. Then I took a look at the accelerometer capabilities. The accelerometer is desirable for games that use tilt control of course, but is also key to apps based on the equations of motion, like my gMeter (vehicle performance) and greenMeter (eco driving) apps.

Well, strike two — while the webOS SDK allows access to raw accelerometer data, it’s limited to a 4 Hz sampling rate (that’s four samples per second). Applications like gMeter and greenMeter need 50-100 Hz to even be practical, and most games need at least 20 Hz for smooth inputs that won’t lag too far behind typical graphics framerates. A low rate of 4Hz is not usable for dynamic motion where high fidelity is desired. Accelerometer support in the webOS is suitable for detecting basic movement of the phone for interface rotation, but that’s about it…

This wouldn’t be so bad for Palm if we were still in 2007, but in the age of sophisticated iPhone native apps here in 2009, web apps just don’t cut it anymore. With such amazing software capabilities flourishing on the iPhone,

Palm can’t afford to wait a year while they make the transition from web apps to native apps in their SDK. Palm might have had a chance against the 2007 Apple SDK, but not the 2009 version. Not even close. With this limitation, webOS will not be taken seriously by consumers who place importance on games or sophisticated third party apps. The iPhone has raised their expectations too high."

Edible Apple

 

[LethalWolfe]

"I knew that webOS development was based on HTML, JavaScript, and CSS, but I was hoping there was a way, some way, any way, to tap into advanced hardware features and software technologies. Chief on my list is OpenGL, which is a requirement for serious games. GL even became necessary for some of my simpler apps, like Kaleido and Butterfly Collection, since basic software rendering just isn’t responsive enough for smooth animations at decent speeds. You need to tap into the graphics hardware with OpenGL ES.

Sadly, my suspicions were confirmed — there is no way for developers to tap into OpenGL ES using the webOS SDK, despite the fact that the hardware supports it. So that’s a major blow. Then I took a look at the accelerometer capabilities. The accelerometer is desirable for games that use tilt control of course, but is also key to apps based on the equations of motion, like my gMeter (vehicle performance) and greenMeter (eco driving) apps.

Well, strike two — while the webOS SDK allows access to raw accelerometer data, it’s limited to a 4 Hz sampling rate (that’s four samples per second). Applications like gMeter and greenMeter need 50-100 Hz to even be practical, and most games need at least 20 Hz for smooth inputs that won’t lag too far behind typical graphics framerates. A low rate of 4Hz is not usable for dynamic motion where high fidelity is desired. Accelerometer support in the webOS is suitable for detecting basic movement of the phone for interface rotation, but that’s about it…

This wouldn’t be so bad for Palm if we were still in 2007, but in the age of sophisticated iPhone native apps here in 2009, web apps just don’t cut it anymore. With such amazing software capabilities flourishing on the iPhone,

Palm can’t afford to wait a year while they make the transition from web apps to native apps in their SDK. Palm might have had a chance against the 2007 Apple SDK, but not the 2009 version. Not even close. With this limitation, webOS will not be taken seriously by consumers who place importance on games or sophisticated third party apps. The iPhone has raised their expectations too high."

Edible Apple

Already posted back on post #194. Also, when you copy and paste what another person has written it's customary to link back to the source.


Lethal

 

[kdarling]

Palm can’t afford to wait a year while they make the transition from web apps to native apps in their SDK. Palm might have had a chance against the 2007 Apple SDK, but not the 2009 version. Not even close.

If Palm was competing directly against Apple, then perhaps you'd have a point. And with ATT saying they want to pick up a couple of Pre models next year, we might get to see this.

But since Apple doesn't sell on Verizon or Sprint, then I think Palm will do quite well on those carriers. There's no real rush as long as Apple leaves most of the US market to other phone makers.

 

[xStep]

I don't know if this has been posted to this thread, but this blog has some interesting information regarding the Pre software development kit.

Two concerns for the writer were;

"there is no way for developers to tap into OpenGL ES using the webOS SDK, despite the fact that the hardware supports it"​

"while the webOS SDK allows access to raw accelerometer data, it's limited to a 4 Hz sampling rate (that's four samples per second)"​

Edit: I see a reference to the blog just above my note.

 

[chris7777]

I just got my iPhone two weeks ago and my "unlimited (read the fine print)" ATT data plan is only $30.

Which is the same price as many home internet service providers.

I remember passing up unlimited data from sprint under their now discontinued CERO plan for around that price , and it included everything.

but unless the rumor of a lower priced and limited data plan, ever sees the light of day, you pay minimum, $70 a month to have an iphone.
I might be willing to pay $50 for everything. I dont have to have unlimited.
I frankly don't see the point when their are so many free wifi access points, not to mention my home router.

I am just saying an additional $30 which does not even include texting(which is a whole other topic on overpriced indulgences) is too much for the actual service received. my home router runs 4 computers, where 3g runs a single 320 x 480 device. And of course the additional fees they are likely to tack on for tethering.

It reminds me of getting my daughter a video mp3 player, and after playing with it myself thinking, who is going to want to watch a movie on this tiny screen, except for maybe a 4 hour road trip?

I would even be willing to pay for data by the minute as much as I use it, which is rare with access to wifi.

I just think they are shooting themselves in the foot and denying the device to many who might buy it without having to pay the exorbitant data fees.

I mean in the beginning when everything was just web applications I can sort of see it, which is another reason I am no fan of the cloud concept.
But now that the app store has taken off, and I can download apps natively to the device like my palm. And "check in" when I am at a wifi hotspot, or if there is an emergency access data.

It just does not seem like a wise investment of my money, especially when I can buy an additional ipod touch with the money I would save in just 1 year without the data plan.

 

[genovelle]

If Palm was competing directly against Apple, then perhaps you'd have a point. And with ATT saying they want to pick up a couple of Pre models next year, we might get to see this.

But since Apple doesn't sell on Verizon or Sprint, then I think Palm will do quite well on those carriers. There's no real rush as long as Apple leaves most of the US market to other phone makers.

Thats where you miss the boat. Every person I know not on At&t who really wanted a phone on their network like the Iphone thinks that the Pre is everything the Iphone is and more. But truthfully it is just Safari as their whole OS. So all of the apps are Web Apps like the ones Apple came out with in 2007 and everyone cried bloody murder until they gain a real SDK. Well its two years later and there is so much access to the underlying power of the Iphone OS until the Apps that will arrive in the coming months will make it even more impossible for the others to catch up.

 

[kdarling]

Thats where you miss the boat. Every person I know not on At&t who really wanted a phone on their network like the Iphone thinks that the Pre is everything the Iphone is and more.

I just got my stepson a Pre, and I have been playing with the SDK. It's a darned nice phone, and easy to use. Being able to flip between apps is hugely easier and more fun than on the iPhone.

But truthfully it is just Safari as their whole OS.

More like it's the basis for the UI. Its OS is Linux.

So all of the apps are Web Apps like the ones Apple came out with in 2007 and everyone cried bloody murder until they gain a real SDK.

They're not the same at all. Apple tried to pawn off remotely hosted web apps. On the Palm, the apps are local, and have access to local services, data and other apps.

There are literally millions of people familiar with the basics of using Javascript and HTML, and can program on PCs or Macs or Linux computers, unlike the few tens of thousands who program in Objective-C and must own a Mac to do so.

Well its two years later and there is so much access to the underlying power of the Iphone OS until the Apps that will arrive in the coming months will make it even more impossible for the others to catch up.

Palm will no doubt have a deeper SDK later, just as Apple finally did. I think there'll be tons of both kinds of apps, and without the ridiculous limitations that the iPhone has.

Palm will have its phone on every major carrier in the US next year. It'll be available in multiple models. There are plenty of buyers for both devices. It's not a head to head contest (yet).

 

[LethalWolfe]

Palm will no doubt have a deeper SDK later, just as Apple finally did. I think there'll be tons of both kinds of apps, and without the ridiculous limitations that the iPhone has.

Months ago when Palm was first talking about the Mojo SDK they hinted that certain developers would get deeper access into the device. It sounds like they want to ease into it which makes sense, but on the other hand if they move too slowly they are going to put themselves behind the 8 ball.


Lethal

 

[kdarling]

Months ago when Palm was first talking about the Mojo SDK they hinted that certain developers would get deeper access into the device.

Yes sir, I would bet that companies like Sling Media already have access.

It sounds like they want to ease into it which makes sense, but on the other hand if they move too slowly they are going to put themselves behind the 8 ball.

Yep, but again that's why I say that Apple has given Palm (and others) a huge breathing and development space, by keeping the iPhone locked into exclusive contracts so long, and especially leaving the CDMA market to others.

 

[pika2000]

But since Apple doesn't sell on Verizon or Sprint, then I think Palm will do quite well on those carriers. There's no real rush as long as Apple leaves most of the US market to other phone makers.

We'll see, once a slew of Android phones are coming out. Palm should not be worried about Apple, they should be worried about Android. Palm is 1 company, Android phones are coming from multiple companies. If Palm doesn't act quick, WebOS may end up being just another niche.

 

[pika2000]

Yep, but again that's why I say that Apple has given Palm (and others) a huge breathing and development space, by keeping the iPhone locked into exclusive contracts so long, and especially leaving the CDMA market to others.

Not really, as most of the world use GSM, and LTE is the next step. Even Verizon is switching to LTE.

 

[*LTD*]

I thought CDMA was virtually dead. Is this old standard still kickin around?

 

[fat phil]

Yes sir, I would bet that companies like Sling Media already have access.

Just so long as they aren't relying on the emulator to test their app. They currently don't support video playback in the emulator, and have no ETA on it.

They also don't support audio recording, so any memo type apps are out the window.

 

[mj6252]

You think? 1.8 million, aren't we assuming that they sold at least a million phones by now? If that's the case that's not even two per phone....

MacWorld Article says...

Gold and Keilhack noted that the Pre has sold more than 300,000 units, putting it on track to sell 2 million units in a year.

1.8M apps / 300,000 units sold = 6 apps/user

not bad is it?

(I have that much form camera app alone... they have apps/down load to go.)

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I thought CDMA was virtually dead. Is this old standard still kickin around?

Tell you the truth GSM is the old standard still kicking around.

CDMA in more ways than not is better than GSM. CDMA is a more powerful signal and able to cut through interference better. CDMA is more secure than GSM and I believe CDMA can handle more users than GSM.
The reason CDMA never took off was because royalties had to be paid to Quatcom who holds/held the patent on CDMA tech.
GSM the companies do never had to pay royalties on it.

 

[kdarling]

Palm should not be worried about Apple, they should be worried about Android.

I hate to say it, but I think that marketing will be the key, instead of specs / usefulness.

It seems to me that the general populace can usually only remember a couple of top names to ask for when buying something. One name is obviously "iPhone", because it reminds one of "iPod" and because of its press. The other? Up in the air right now.

IMO, neither "Pre" nor "Android" is a cutesy or memorable enough name. Now, "Palm Pilot" was a term that was widely known at one time. It had flow

Not really, as most of the world use GSM, and LTE is the next step. Even Verizon is switching to LTE.

What the rest of the world uses is moot in this case. The majority of the USA consists of Verizon and Sprint customers and their coverage. The air interface isn't important. What carriers a phone is available on, is.

My point was that Apple is ignoring the overwhelming majority of the USA market for years, while other phone makers get a foothold via customer contracts and a chance to improve their devices.

Btw, LTE full coverage is 4-5 years away, and so is not a major market until then. The iPhone is only a couple of years old, so four years is a long time in comparison.

 

[aristotle]

What the rest of the world uses is moot in this case. The majority of the USA consists of Verizon and Sprint customers and their coverage. The air interface isn't important. What carriers a phone is available on, is.

Perhaps it is moot for you since you either don't travel outside of the confines of the continental US or you are willing to not have a phone with you but they rest of the world uses GSM.

My point was that Apple is ignoring the overwhelming majority of the USA market for years, while other phone makers get a foothold via customer contracts and a chance to improve their devices.

Citation needed. From my observation, most users on CDMA networks in Canada tend to not own smart phones and are mainly interested in a simple phone that does voice calls and texting. My employer has all of their Canadian blackberries on Rogers (GSM) since the execs tend to travel to our offices around the world and want to always remain connected.

Based on these observations, I would surmise that most smartphones are on GSM network because the savvy business user would not be willing to get a CDMA version with WiFI and other features disabled. CDMA tends to cater to the lower end domestic centric consumers rather than world travellers. Watching TV is probably not high on the list for international travellers or business people.

Btw, LTE full coverage is 4-5 years away, and so is not a major market until then. The iPhone is only a couple of years old, so four years is a long time in comparison.

Do you use Safari? Have you ever tried that search text box in the upper right corner?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3GPP_Long_Term_Evolution#Carrier_adoption

In Canada, the two major CDMA carriers are converting over to 3G GSM before the end of this year and rolling out LTE in 2011 while Verizon in the US is currently testing LTE right now. Full coverage is probably two years away rather than 4-5 years away. I would guess that CDMA getting shut off is probably 4 years away.

 

[*LTD*]

Tell you the truth GSM is the old standard still kicking around.

CDMA in more ways than not is better than GSM. CDMA is a more powerful signal and able to cut through interference better. CDMA is more secure than GSM and I believe CDMA can handle more users than GSM.
The reason CDMA never took off was because royalties had to be paid to Quatcom who holds/held the patent on CDMA tech.
GSM the companies do never had to pay royalties on it.

As I recall CDMA doesn't handle data very well, in terms of data-intensive smartphones. I could be wrong though.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

As I recall CDMA doesn't handle data very well, in terms of data-intensive smartphones. I could be wrong though.

Oh it handles it better. For proof of g3 networks out there are all a type of CDMA technology. Just there happens to be 2 types of g3 out there.

CDMA was faster and better than the Edge network that GSM used and they end up moving over to it for G3. The reason g3 came out faster on CDMA providers is the towers were already set up for CDMA. the GSM providers had to do things to make them CDMA.

 

[kdarling]

Perhaps it is moot for you since you either don't travel outside of the confines of the continental US or you are willing to not have a phone with you but they rest of the world uses GSM.

1) You're replying to posts about how Apple has left 2/3 of the US market open to other phone makers. We're talking about the USA. Only.

2) I wouldn't recommend an iPhone to any US citizen who often goes out of country, because Apple managed to cripple one of the major features of GSM... the ability to use local SIMs.

... while Verizon in the US is currently testing LTE right now. Full coverage is probably two years away rather than 4-5 years away. I would guess that CDMA getting shut off is probably 4 years away.

Not even close.

Verizon has recently said they don't expect full coverage until the end of 2013 or the beginning of 2014.. In addition, they plan to keep CDMA for voice through most of the next decade.