Palm trying to 1-up Apple's [potential] iPhone Release?

[pavvento]

It amazes me how polarizing this topic is. Some of you sound like you have some deep seeded hatred for Apple and can't wait for something to be better. Others would have you think that it was Steve Jobs that created God.

I am surprised, however, at how many of you are dismissing the multi-tasking capabilities because you can only have one thing on the screen at a time. I think it is awesome that I can listen to Pandora while reading a website while keeping a GChat going at the same time that I am using info from the website to edit a Word Document. While this may not be all day everyday usage, having the capability to do some of it is nice. Not necessary, but nice.

I would be very interested in how many of you that claim to not be interested in multi-tasking would be praising Apple if it was part of their 3.0 announcement.

 

[slapppy]

I can listen to my own crappy music while plays NFSU. Hows that for multitasking?

 

[t0mat0]

Top Sites in Safari 4 beta. Are they updating live? Just wondering. What would it take for a developer to get Apple to create a homepage that used Core Animation, to create a coverflow of favorite websites. Or to do this with open pages? Have "cards" using coverflow?
What's to stop Apple adding speculative loading? (you'd need a decent connection to have it running, or you could do some kind of PNS to star a page that had updated perhaps.

 

[kdarling]

It amazes me how polarizing this topic is. Some of you sound like you have some deep seeded hatred for Apple and can't wait for something to be better. Others would have you think that it was Steve Jobs that created God.

Yes, there are a lot of youngsters here. Everything's still black or white to them... no shades of grey.

 

[Eso]

Since a mobile phone can only display one app at a time, how much your work flow is interrupted doesn't depend on whether the phone can "multitask," it depends on how quickly you can switch between functions. If closing one app and opening another is fast enough, who cares that they weren't both running at the same time?

You can use the same argument for desktops. Applications usually take up the whole screen (and if not, only one can be active at one time anyways), so as long as your desktop can close one app and open another fast enough, it doesn't matter if they were running at the same time, right? Why bother then with multitasking on desktop computers?

 

[pavvento]

You can use the same argument for desktops. Applications usually take up the whole screen (and if not, only one can be active at one time anyways), so as long as your desktop can close one app and open another fast enough, it doesn't matter if they were running at the same time, right? Why bother then with multitasking on desktop computers?

Great Point. It'll also be interesting to see how push works. For example, if I have an RSS reader, will a badge pop up on that program when it auto downloads new content, or will a notification pop up telling me something is available, having me then open the RSS feeder so it can then download the updates?

 

[Digital Skunk]

The pre is in a lot of trouble because they have partnered with sprint. Sprint is a second-tier network at this point, and the only reason they have any customers right now is because they give away service with their sero program.

I think Palm would have done better to have worked an exclusive with any other carrier.

Opinion and bad at that.

Not that I am a HUGE Sprint fanboy, but Sprint is a far better network where I live, gets far better reception, and far faster 3G than AT&T.... it's only rivaled by Verizon.

So if by second tier you mean not better than Verizon but far and a way better than the rest including AT&T then sure.

The Pre was a good choice for Sprint. BOTH companies are trying to regain revenue and what better way to do that then pair a great phone with a network that actually gives their customers what they want?

Speaking only for myself here - I don't want the Pre to fail. It just doesn't make sense for me. Reasons:

1) the iphone has one-click syncing with all of my mac desktop apps (safari, itunes, iphoto, mail, etc.). I'm not going back to managing the data on my phone on a drag-and-drop or app-by-app basis. I don't have the time, patience, or interest.

2) Palm would need something that at least comes close to the app store in terms of quality, variety, and ease of use. Probably the majority of my iphone use is through 3rd party apps, so however good another phone is, unless there's a good selection of apps, it's not going to be as functional as an iphone for me.

3) I'd really like to get back to just one device, and while my employer does not yet support the iphone (bb only), they will do so at some point in the not-too-distant future. They're not, however, going to support the Pre for a long time, if ever.

4) I'm not going back to a physical keyboard. It's ridiculous how much slower it is to type on. (I have a bb curve, so I can compare on a daily basis.)

5) I'm at capacity on my 8 GB iphone, and the Pre tops out at 8 GB (I think).

6) I'm not going to Sprint. Period.

Now, those are just my preferences. I know that other people have different priorities. But what draws me in to these Pre/iPhone debates is that the Pre-loving crowd tends to act like the Pre is some clearly superior device, and only a "fanboy" could prefer an iphone. That's both insulting and wrong. Both devices have some advantages as well as some debatable differences (AT&T vs. Sprint, physical vs. virtual keyboard).

The funny thing is that this very list has been going on for many users for almost two years. I remember when it was the iPhone vs. the Instinct.

 

[iWork]

Without a doubt, the iPhone is the gold standard of mobile devices. The Palm Pre will be second to the iPhone, an extraordinary feat by all measures (Android, BlackBerry, etc. are not in the same ballpark). Palm Pre should be a success by all measures.

With regards to Sprint as the exclusive carrier, Sprint has a far more developed and reliable 3G network than AT&T (AT&Ts suffered statewide outages, across the nation, multiple times.). Sprint's 3G footprint and download speeds are greater than AT&Ts. I have 3G broadband cards from both Sprint and AT&T (I have iPhone 3G also) and here in NYC, Sprint blazes AT&T. I've held extended video calls on Skype over Sprint 3G EVDO while traveling down the East Coast, where AT&T dead spots and slow speeds killed my experience. Furthermore, Sprint roams on Verizon's towers, further expanding the coverage (Voice roaming is free, whereas data is not.).

Using Sprint as an argument against the Pre is weak. In an interview with Gizmodo, AT&T admitted that Sprint's network is superior (AT&T said Sprint's approach of "Build the Network, Customers Will Come" is superior for the customer, but is responsible for Sprint's current financial mess.) Sprint's plans are also far cheaper than AT&T plans. Customer service for both networks has been indistinguishable and perfect.

If anything, Palm's decision to partner with Sprint is a victory for customers.

 

[skwoytek]

Do you really think Apple coded the 100 features, got them to a workable beta, prepared all the new APIs and wrote all the documentation in two months?

I'm sure without Palm we would have got only two new features instead.

Many of us want the Pre to succeed, seeing as they're probably responsible for scaring Apple into introducing the features it put into iPhone OS 3.0.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Do you really think Apple coded the 100 features, got them to a workable beta, prepared all the new APIs and wrote all the documentation in two months?

I'm sure without Palm we would have got only two new features instead.

Honestly yes. Of course Apple had it in the works, but they announced it 2 months after the Pre when they knew they could get it out to the public in beta form. Not a bad move by Apple at all, but they were certainly rushed into letting the masses know that they had been working on giving users what they've been asking for since the iPhone's introduction.

 

[skwoytek]

Of course Apple had it in the works, but they announced it 2 months after the Pre when they knew they could get it out to the public in beta form.

If it was in the works, then Palm didn't scare them into adding those features. And since a roadmap event and beta release were held last year at the same time, I'd guess Apple had already planned those as well.

 

[t0mat0]

Launch date to be announced in WSJ May 17th - this sunday?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=4169

 

[kas23]

With all the new restrictions AT&T has been coming up with lately, Sprint is actually looking like more desirable by the day. For anyone who instantly dismisses Sprint as inferior, have you actually used them as a carrier in the last 2-3 years?

 

[John T]

From a marketing perspective, with its circulation of over 2 million, and a readership of considerably more, I'd have thought the WSJ was an excellent choice of media. As the article suggests, Palm are obviously initially aiming at the Professional/White Collar segment. The Sunday editions usually have the highest readership of the week.

This seems to reinforce the idea that Palm is positioning the Pre at professional communications in contrast to Apple who have mainly concentrated on entertainment - music, gaming etc.

 

[Digital Skunk]

If it was in the works, then Palm didn't scare them into adding those features. And since a roadmap event and beta release were held last year at the same time, I'd guess Apple had already planned those as well.

I said scare them into announcing them and putting out the beta form. We all know that Apple and companies like it are working on the next greatest thing as soon as the newest thing hits the shelves.

I am sure Palm wised up after the Foleo fiasco and put money and R&D into their OS development and when it was ready for prime time introduced it with the Pre.

I am sure that Apple had the enhancements in 3.0 in the works after 2.0, but when they saw Palm implementing a very VERY good looking UI that's just a breezy they decided to let everyone know that they had something in the works like it to.

Instead of waiting for a major event like WWDC to show off 3.0 they put it out shortly after the Pre was floating around the web.

 

[t0mat0]

I said scare them into announcing them and putting out the beta form. We all know that Apple and companies like it are working on the next greatest thing as soon as the newest thing hits the shelves.

I am sure Palm wised up after the Foleo fiasco and put money and R&D into their OS development and when it was ready for prime time introduced it with the Pre.

I am sure that Apple had the enhancements in 3.0 in the works after 2.0, but when they saw Palm implementing a very VERY good looking UI that's just a breezy they decided to let everyone know that they had something in the works like it to.

Instead of waiting for a major event like WWDC to show off 3.0 they put it out shortly after the Pre was floating around the web.

I'd hope companies are working on the next greatest thing, prior to the "newest thing" hitting the shelves. Lead times and all that.

WWDC is being used to show off 3.0

 

[QCassidy352]

Launch date to be announced in WSJ May 17th - this sunday?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/gadgetreviews/?p=4169

Interesting that they're targeting business users. Currently my employer only supports bb - if they added Pre but not iphone support, I could be tempted (I hate carrying two devices). However, despite Palm's long history with business users, this is a whole new platform, and it might be a tough sell.

You can use the same argument for desktops. Applications usually take up the whole screen (and if not, only one can be active at one time anyways), so as long as your desktop can close one app and open another fast enough, it doesn't matter if they were running at the same time, right? Why bother then with multitasking on desktop computers?

I quite commonly have multiple apps open side by side so that I can look at one while using another. It's the biggest reason to have large and/or multiple monitors. The fact that only one app can be active at a time isn't relevant - the question is whether you can look at more than one at a time. On a desktop, yes you can. On a phone, not so much.

The other reason full-sized computers need multitasking a lot more than phones is that people have them doing much more in the background - things like ripping, encoding, rendering, etc. You'd hate to lose use of your desktop for the duration of such demanding, time-intensive operations, but that's not really a worry with a phone.

 

[pavvento]

Interesting that they're targeting business users. Currently my employer only supports bb - if they added Pre but not iphone support, I could be tempted (I hate carrying two devices). However, despite Palm's long history with business users, this is a whole new platform, and it might be a tough sell.



I quite commonly have multiple apps open side by side so that I can look at one while using another. It's the biggest reason to have large and/or multiple monitors. The fact that only one app can be active at a time isn't relevant - the question is whether you can look at more than one at a time. On a desktop, yes you can. On a phone, not so much.

The other reason full-sized computers need multitasking a lot more than phones is that people have them doing much more in the background - things like ripping, encoding, rendering, etc. You'd hate to lose use of your desktop for the duration of such demanding, time-intensive operations, but that's not really a worry with a phone.

I had a situation tonight that shows (to me at least) what makes the multi-tasking the feature it is. I was browsing the web in an Edge only spot (brutal I know). As the page finished loading I got a text message notification and tapped 'reply'. After finishing my message I went back to Safari and it had to completely reload the page. This added an extra minute, which might sound trivial but is not necessary.

Had I been able to keep the internet running while responding, I would have been able to continue what I was doing.

I think that's a small example of how multi-tasking helps.

 

[Digital Skunk]

I had a situation tonight that shows (to me at least) what makes the multi-tasking the feature it is. I was browsing the web in an Edge only spot (brutal I know). As the page finished loading I got a text message notification and tapped 'reply'. After finishing my message I went back to Safari and it had to completely reload the page. This added an extra minute, which might sound trivial but is not necessary.

Had I been able to keep the internet running while responding, I would have been able to continue what I was doing.

I think that's a small example of how multi-tasking helps.

Not to mention that on EDGE, in certain areas, it can take up to 6 minutes to load a basic page.

Not a small example at all. Just one of many.

 

[t0mat0]

If Apple did go Tegra, and Nvidia's shown off multitasking (or faux multitasking - out of site apps don't have to be running, only ones that get shown on the screen) - would this indicate a shift slightly? Apple's got more leeway coming from no multitasking, to loosen up and allow some, under certain circumstances perhaps?

 

[redman042]

I am surprised, however, at how many of you are dismissing the multi-tasking capabilities because you can only have one thing on the screen at a time. I think it is awesome that I can listen to Pandora while reading a website while keeping a GChat going at the same time that I am using info from the website to edit a Word Document. While this may not be all day everyday usage, having the capability to do some of it is nice. Not necessary, but nice.

I would be very interested in how many of you that claim to not be interested in multi-tasking would be praising Apple if it was part of their 3.0 announcement.

I would love multi-tasking on my iPhone. But I tend to agree with Apple that it is very much a double-edged sword, and given the current state of smartphone processor and battery technology, we may be better off without it. Take for example WinMo and Blackberry phones. I know they both allow unlimited multitasking, but I know from experience that both can have lots of problems resulting from multitasking. Too many apps open, a rogue app, or a memory leak can wreak havoc with performance and stability. Last time I owned a WinMo phone, as soon as I got it I loaded it up with custom home screens and other apps. 6 months later I was stripping it back down to just the bare essentials because I was tired of lags and crashing. That's very telling.

I'm glad the Pre has multitasking, and I hope they find a way to pull it off well. The fact that every app is web-based may be the key to making this work reliably, but it is also indicative of the hoops one must jump through to get multitasking to work well on a phone. And the web-based SDK will probably be limiting. I don't expect iPhone quality apps on the Pre for a long time. This could end up being the key trade off for multitasking. Do you want an iPhone with high quality apps including 3D games but no multitasking, or do you want a Pre with full multitasking but only web-based apps?

Remember, phones are NOT the same as desktop computers. In order to preserve battery life, you don't have super fast multi-threading processors, 1000 mHz memory buses, and GB's of RAM to work with. Everything is paired down to bare minimum to make the phone work well while lasting reasonably long on a battery charge. And the batteries are as thin as a couple of stacked credit cards. So advanced features like multitasking are much harder to implement well.

Let's see what Palm has really pulled off after the Pre has been out for a month and put through its paces. Then we'll know if it's time for Apple to step up and make multitasking happen, or if we're better off without it for now.

 

[pavvento]

I would love multi-tasking on my iPhone. But I tend to agree with Apple that it is very much a double-edged sword, and given the current state of smartphone processor and battery technology, we may be better off without it. Take for example WinMo and Blackberry phones. I know they both allow unlimited multitasking, but I know from experience that both can have lots of problems resulting from multitasking. Too many apps open, a rogue app, or a memory leak can wreak havoc with performance and stability. Last time I owned a WinMo phone, as soon as I got it I loaded it up with custom home screens and other apps. 6 months later I was stripping it back down to just the bare essentials because I was tired of lags and crashing. That's very telling.

I'm glad the Pre has multitasking, and I hope they find a way to pull it off well. The fact that every app is web-based may be the key to making this work reliably, but it is also indicative of the hoops one must jump through to get multitasking to work well on a phone. And the web-based SDK will probably be limiting. I don't expect iPhone quality apps on the Pre for a long time. This could end up being the key trade off for multitasking. Do you want an iPhone with high quality apps including 3D games but no multitasking, or do you want a Pre with full multitasking but only web-based apps?

Remember, phones are NOT the same as desktop computers. In order to preserve battery life, you don't have super fast multi-threading processors, 1000 mHz memory buses, and GB's of RAM to work with. Everything is paired down to bare minimum to make the phone work well while lasting reasonably long on a battery charge. And the batteries are as thin as a couple of stacked credit cards. So advanced features like multitasking are much harder to implement well.

Let's see what Palm has really pulled off after the Pre has been out for a month and put through its paces. Then we'll know if it's time for Apple to step up and make multitasking happen, or if we're better off without it for now.

Can you clarify what you mean by 'web based apps'? A lot of people here have been clamoring that the applications on the Pre are just websites, like the webapps that Apple pushed before 2.0. This is not the case.

Your comment about gaming and hardcore apps does make sense, but why can't it be both with the iPhone. It has the capability of having some sweet games and apps, but if one is a basic app (like a task manager or something) then running that in the background won't kill the phone.

I think the next few months will be interesting when the public can judge what kind of trade off there is for the multi-tasking. If, and it's a big if, Palm can get some good apps, and have effective multi-tasking it could lead to other changes from other companies. That's all we can hope for, competition drives innovation.

 

[redman042]

Can you clarify what you mean by 'web based apps'? A lot of people here have been clamoring that the applications on the Pre are just websites, like the webapps that Apple pushed before 2.0. This is not the case.

Programming for the Pre involves using web programming language. While the Pre's version appears to be far more capable than Apple's Webapps, it's still a long way from the direct hardware access that iPhone programmers have. You won't see 3D games on the Pre for example.

I'm not a programmer so I don't know the extent of the difference when it comes to the power of Pre apps vs. their ability to multitask reliably. But I do think the Pre's ability to multitask well (if it proves to be reliable) comes with a trade-off in what 3rd party apps are able to do.

Only time will tell.

 

[Digital Skunk]

ou won't see 3D games on the Pre for example.

That's a good enough trade off for many.

If I had to choose between 3D games and multitasking I'd choose the latter.

 

[TuffLuffJimmy]

That's a good enough trade off for many.

If I had to choose between 3D games and multitasking I'd choose the latter.

Here's where I think a happy medium could easily be met. I think 90% of the iPhone apps could be written in web languages and work fine, these apps could be apps that apple would allow to run in the background. Apps that require native languages, like 3D games or simulators, would run by themselves one at a time.