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Agree with poster above that A1s are wonderful in terms of price/performance ratio.

I would LOVE to go solid state, but when we shoot events that run 12-18 hours, we go through 30+ tapes sometimes. Not gonna happen with solid state.

However, I am jealous when it dumps it straight into your hard drive. How much footage can you capture in SS vs. capturing it on tape and waiting a bit?

Not saying Canons are better, but in our experience, they are dead reliable with great results (not for broadcast).

HDV is a pain to work with, and I'll switch when something better comes out for our needs, but it doesn't exist yet.
 
Not in the "prosumer" range iirc. Canon, Sony, and JVC have HDV cameras comparable to the Panasonic HVX200.


http://dvxuser.mikkowilson.com/p2chart/

So an 8GB card (currently ~$700) will hold 8 minutes of 1080i60 DVCPRO HD.


So youre telling me that the Panasionic only holds eight mins of video!? :eek: (per card that is)

So for HD, would the canon be better because of HDV?

What makes the XH G1 better than the XH A1?

So basically, price wise the XH A1 would be best, but price out of the question overall quality would be Panasonic?

is P2 the only way for a Panasonic to record in HD? Can the Panasonic AG-HVX200
Record to DV?


Thanks!
 
So youre telling me that the Panasionic only holds eight mins of video!? :eek: (per card that is)

So for HD, would the canon be better because of HDV?

What makes the XH G1 better than the XH A1?

So basically, price wise the XH A1 would be best, but price out of the question overall quality would be Panasonic?

is P2 the only way for a Panasonic to record in HD? Can the Panasonic AG-HVX200
Record to DV?


Thanks!

I've owned and used extensively the XL-H1, HVX200, and the new Sony EX1 and I will say that it comes down to feel of using the camera. I find the XL-H1 produces a superior image over the HVX200. I had to do a shoot where we used both cameras and when I was intercutting them, the Canon footage was noticeably "better", certainly much sharper than the HVX. And this was from its HDV, not from its HD-SDI (which I have used before - footage RAW from this blows the HVX away).

This is not a knock on the HVX by any means ... the HVX produces a very organic looking image, quite pleasing.

HDV can produce excellent results ... yes, the HVX has the better DVCPROHD codec, but its all about what is feeding that codec, and with the Canon XL, you have (in my opinion) better glass, better ccds, and better internal processing.

The XH-A1 is essentially the XL in a handheld form minus the open versatility. It's definitely the best price/performance camera. The G1 is the same, except it adds the professional I/O of the XL version.

And yes the HVX can record DV to tape as well.

"Prosumer" and "Professional" are easily used as marketing terms by companies to sell, sell, sell. Don't fall for the wording hype and certainly look at your camera specs and footage to make a decision.
 
Semi pro video cameras?

Hey guys and gals,

I was looking into purchasing a Canon XL-H1 3CCD High Definition Camcorder with 20x Optical Zoom for documentary purposes. I just thought that I would like to get some of your guys opinions on this. I'm wanting a reliable HD video camera that will give me excellent video quality in the outdoors. If any of you guys have another suggestion that might suit my needs please feel free to post them. I'm kind of into the whole Planet Earth documentary series and I obviously can't buy those $48,000 cameras so I'm trying to find a camera that can give me the closest video quality as the series, without trying to spend over $10k. Thanks.
 
Kameron: Don't get the XL-H1, it's outdated. If you want a semi-shoulder mount with interchangeable lenses, then look at the new Sony EX3. If you don't need the shoulder mount or lenses, then look at the Canon XH-A1 (best bet for the money).



BossofMASS: No, the Panasonic HVX will not record HDV onto the miniDV tape. You can only record DVCPro/DVCProHD to the P2 cards.
 
Kameron: Don't get the XL-H1, it's outdated. If you want a semi-shoulder mount with interchangeable lenses, then look at the new Sony EX3. If you don't need the shoulder mount or lenses, then look at the Canon XH-A1 (best bet for the money).

I'd say if he decides to go fixed lens to take a hard look at the EX1 (unless the 20x zoom is mandatory). The EX1 is a great camera for the money and performs very, very well in less than ideal lighting situations (which can come in very hand on a doc).


Lethal
 
I suggested the XH-A1 since it recorded to tape and it would be easier to deal with (and much less expensive) in the field than solid state.
Yes, good point.

That just reminded me of Sony's Z7U. It's $5.5k (at B&H), does interchangeable lenses, and records to tape as well as compact flash.


Lethal
 
how about disregarding price

Ok so when I first saw that video camera that I mentioned on my last post, I completely fell in love with it, the looks, its capability...everything! Now disregarding price (except for when exceeding $10k) what would you still suggest? I'm not looking for something half the price and "almost" the same quality, I'm looking more on the lines of a camera that is capable of suiting my needs (post above explains most of it). I don't know if it has a fixed lense. I thought I found another lense that could fit on that camera, but it still is 20x optimal zoom, which I assume (from what I've heard through the posts) that its decent. Can the shoulder mount cameras such as the one I mentioned by placed on a tripod? I mean, it can be mounted on a tripod right? I will be doing a little filming with it on my shoulder, but tripods are probably what I will use most. Ok now I have some questions for zoom. Since my purpose is to film wildlife and the outdoors, its not always easy to get close to wildlife. I don't know a whole lot about zoom lenses, but any suggestions as to what lenses I should use that would give me that close up shot from animals a distance away? I'm looking for one that would have excellent imagrey and color reproduction, stabilization, etc. I still haven't made up my mind about which video camera I will be working my way up to. I don't so much care about the price at this moment (as long as it doesn't exceed $10k), but more an HD camera that would be perfect for outdoor use (and of course have great color, stabilization, detail, etc.). Thanks alot guys...sorry this post was so long.
 
Well the good thing is that there are a few options so you should be able to find something that fits your needs and budget. The bad news is that there is no clear cut "best" camera so you'll have to prioritize what features you want as each camera will have its pros and cons. Is you budget for a camera $10k or is your budget for a camera system $10k? By camera system I mean camera plus batteries, travel case(s), tripod, camera cover, microphone, etc.,.

At NAB Canon announced two updated versions of the XL-H1. The XL-H1S and XL-H1A (not to be confused w/the XH-A1). The difference between the "S" and the "A" is that the "S" has TC, HD-SDI, and Genlock outputs which is helpful in a studio and/or multi-camera situation. That doesn't matter much for your stated needs. Both cameras should ship this summer and the "S" is $8,999 and the "A" is $5,999 if I remember correctly. The XL cameras will get you the longest lens (20x) as well as the ability to purchase an adapter so you can mount some Canon still camera lens onto it (and the still camera lens will have a magnification factor of around 7x due to the differences between the still camera imager and the HDV imager).

The Sony EX1 arguably gets you the best image for any camera under $10k. It has a 1/2" (not 1/3") full raster (1920x1080) imager, records to a full raster codec (HDCAM EX), is tweakable out the wazoo, and performs much better in low light than other sub-$10k camera and has very good dynamic range. The EX1 also has a manual lens so zooming, focusing, and adjusting the iris can be done more quickly and accurately than the "electronic" lenses that are found on other prosumer cameras. The EX1 doesn't have as long a lens as the Canon, but I'd wager you could buy an EX1+35mm adapter kit+35mm lens and out perform the Canon while still staying under $10k. Of course adding in a 35mm kit means more stuff to lug thru the woods and less run-n-gun style shooting.

The Sony z7u has a fully manual, interchangeable lens, records HDV to tape and/or CF flash card, and performs very well in terms of image quality and low-light sensitivity (though not as good as the EX1).

Also at NAB Panasonic announced the HVX200A. I don't know a lot about the upgrade but the 200A is supposed to have better quality imagers than the HVX200 (better color, better light sensitivity, and less noise). The HVX only has a 13x lens, but many people love the image that it produces even though it's not as sharp as other sub 10k cameras. The HVX also has the shortest available recording times.

As bigbossbmb mentioned the recording format of each camera should be taken into consider as well. The Canon and Sony Z7U record HDV to tape while the EX1 and HVX200 record to solid state media cards (HDCAM EX and DVCPro HD respectively). If you are out in the field for long periods of time (days on end) then recording to tape allows you shoot as much tape as you can carry (and DV tapes are small, light, and inexpensive). The downside is that shooting to tape means you are more vulnerable to environmental conditions (extreme heat, cold, water/humidity, dust, etc.,.). Shooting to solid state media (or special harddrives) means you don't have to worry as much about environmental conditions, but you have shorter shooting times and you have to have a system where you can dump the footage onto a HDD to reuse the card.

Since all of these cameras are new there aren't any head-to-head comparisons out there yet really so I would definitely find a dealer in your area, rent each camera for a weekend and do your own comparisons. Also dedicated video boards like dvxuser.com and dvinfo.net will be able to provide more complete and in-deth info than you'll be able to find here.


Lethal
 
Thanks Lethal for that information! To answer one of your questions, I was reffering to a camera itself at $10k or less, not including the tripods, tapes, batteries, etc. I've been doing some searching and I found that Planet Earth Camera crew's were using panasonic cameras for most of their films (of course, they used a gyro stabilized camera system for the air shots). So I went onto their website and looked at their cameras and about the only camera that I could find was the Panasonic "AG-HPX500" which is more than $10k I realize, I just have to do some more research. I went to one of the camera stores in town and they had no idea about "professional video cameras". So this might take a little bit of time to find out which camera is right for me. So some of the questions I had for the camera employees were, do they make any optical lenses more than 20x zoom? HD is better quailty and visuals right? I don't know who I would need to talk to about some of the features that I've seen on time lapse and "special effects" on cameras, I will save that question for another time :p. So anyway you guys don't have to answer those questions, I just thought I would tell you were I stand at this point. I think I might need to talk to a professor at the University here to see what his idea's are about this. Thanks again everyone!
 
I´m currently shooting and editing a sports program for national television ( a freeride cup for skiers)

We use a Xl-H1, an A1 the EX1 and 2 HV30s as B-cams.

I can really recommend both the EX1 and the H1, the A1 falls a bit short when it comes to detail and sharpness next to the H1 and EX1.

The upcoming EX3 would be my ideal camera in this price range.

The good thing about tape is that it´s cheap and you always have back up.

With the EX1 we constantly have to check an re check that we have back up of the footage in different places.

I have also used the Panasonics from HVX to proffessional cameras and as with any camera you can get great footage out of it.

The P2 technology is getting outdated though.

The HVX200 is an akward camera to handheld. One tend to use the LCD and not the viewfinder when shooting to be more comfortable. What happens then is that every shot is from a low angel and not at eye level.
 
I don't know what some of you all are talking about.

Go to any sporting event - World Series, Super Bowl, etc - and you will see a Canon lens on a Sony camera. Canon makes the best lenses.

Panasonic does not compare to either Canon or Sony.
 
I don't know what some of you all are talking about.

Go to any sporting event - World Series, Super Bowl, etc - and you will see a Canon lens on a Sony camera. Canon makes the best lenses.

Panasonic does not compare to either Canon or Sony.

I was thinking the same thing.. seem to be some very biased opinions being thrust forth. Especially the guy ranking Panasonic and Sony (Sony!!??) above Canon. I guess the kick-backs help him make those monthly Porsche payments. :D
 
I don't know what some of you all are talking about.

Go to any sporting event - World Series, Super Bowl, etc - and you will see a Canon lens on a Sony camera. Canon makes the best lenses.

Panasonic does not compare to either Canon or Sony.
Watch "Planet Earth" and you'll see lots of Sony and Panasonic VariCam footage, but nothing from a Canon camera. Live sporting events isn't really Panasonic's market. Go behind the scenes of commercials, movies, and TV shows and you'll see more Panasonic cameras.

I was thinking the same thing.. seem to be some very biased opinions being thrust forth. Especially the guy ranking Panasonic and Sony (Sony!!??) above Canon. I guess the kick-backs help him make those monthly Porsche payments. :D
Sony and Panasonic both make full sized, professional cameras. Canon does not. Canon makes glass that can go on those Sony or Panasonic cameras, but Canon does not make a camera that competes in that market. So, considering cameras at all price points Canon does rank lower because they only compete in the lower end markets.


Lethal
 
"Watch "Planet Earth" and you'll see lots of Sony and Panasonic VariCam footage, but nothing from a Canon camera. Live sporting events isn't really Panasonic's market. Go behind the scenes of commercials, movies, and TV shows and you'll see more Panasonic cameras."

So with that said, what is your opinion on a camera that is in the price range of 10k and would come as close as you could get (detail, color, HD, etc.) compared to the cameras they used in Planet Earth? Sounds like canon wouldn't be a good documentary camera for the outdoors? Any brand that you guys could recommend me? I'm gonna need a camera that has good optical zoom, HD, excellent color and image, image stabability, good detail, etc. pretty much a video camera that (compared to Planet Earth cameras) would come as close as you could get to it, while staying in the 10k range. thanks guys.
 
A Panasonic HPX500+a lens will run about $10k right now. That is the best camera under $10k. However, how big is your total budget for everything? P2 media is expensive. How will you back up the cards in the field? Buying hard drives to back everything up is expensive. What is your monitoring solution going to be for editing? HD is really expensive if you want to do things right.

DO NOT spend $9-10k on a camera and think you're all set to shoot a doc. My point is do you really have a budget that allows for a $10k camera package and money left over to buy everything else (which will run thousands of dollars too).
 
One of my favorite all time advertisements by Canon was for the Super Bowl.

It was a full page ad in USA Today with a Canon lens and said, "82,397 people are going to watch the Super Bowl live. The rest of the world will see the game through a Canon lens."

Canon's core competence is optics. Also, Canon has ranked among the top three companies in the world to receive U.S. Patents and Trademarks for the last decade. So, Canon innovates and the rest imitate.
 
This budget of $10k (approx) is just for the camera, I can get the tripod, the tapes, and whatever else I need for the field later. Or maybe if I find a package deal then I might get a discount on some of the items that come along with the camera. I don't know if I mentioned this before, but no I don't have too much experience with professional cameras, that is why I wanted your guys opinion on some cameras. So by what I'm hearing on the forums, canon has better lenses than panasonic or sony, but sony and panasonic have better video cameras. It's possible for a canon lense to be mounted on a panasonic camera? That might be the better way to go. After all the HD, and the imaging and color and all the good stuff come from the camera right?
 
Unfortunately it's not that simple as everything is a trade-off unless you have an unlimited budget. And the only person who can weigh the importance of the trade-offs is you. We all can chime in w/our opinions to try and a ball park what's out there, but if you are going to drop $10k on a camera you need to find a way to demo some cameras, run some tests and see which camera works best for you.

From what I've read the HPX500+nice glass (which could cost as much if not more than the camera body unless you go the eBay route) creates good images w/low noise and good light sensitivity (which is good), but the camera doesn't recreate high frequency/fine detail very well (such as wide landscape shots) which could be a problem if you are primary wanting a camera for nature docs. Also, how much equipment can you carry and for how long? The HPX500 is a larger camera than the handheld models like the EX1 or XL-H1. That should be a consideration too if you are humping gear thru the woods.

The XL-H1 camera is said to produce a very sharp (some say too sharp) image that retains fine detail info (so it would be good for wide, landscape shots) and it has a 20x zoom. But some people really don't like the HDV format and say it falls apart when there is a lot of motion and fine detail (such as shooting moving water). So you'd probably want to compare test footage from the cameras to see which camera produces the best image in your eyes. Cameras like the EX1, EX3, HVX200, and HPX500 can do variable frame rates in camera which can be used to shoot animals in slow motion. Doing this in camera yields much better results than slowing down the footage in post. So, for example, if shooting w/variable frame rates would be very useful for you then maybe the HPX500 is a better choice than the XL-H1 even though the XL-H1 might produce nicer looking landscape shots. Now, the EX1 can produce nice, sharp images *and* it can do variable frame rates, but it doesn't have the zoom range of the XL-H1 or HPX500 (assuming you got a 20x zoom for the HPX500 of course). Isn't this fun?:D

It's a lot of trial and error at first, which can seem very intimidating, but once you get more familiar w/the gear you'll start appreciating all the options because that allows you to really tailor your gear for your specific needs.

Canon makes lens for a variety of industry standard mounts including the 2/3" bayonet mount used by cameras like the HPX500.


Lethal
 
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