PayPal Launching Contactless iPhone Payments in Germany to Compete With Apple Pay

[foobarbaz]

Windows had over 90% of the market when they went through their antitrust actions, Apple has less than 30% of the market in the EU. The two situations aren’t remotely comparable.

Of course they are "comparable", even if they are not the same.

A duopoly of operating systems isn't as bad as a monopoly, but it's clearly enough to reduce competition. All it takes is two market players to have a silent understanding not to compete too aggressively on certain aspects and that's it. And, come on, universal 30% fees in both major app stores isn't the result of healthy competition.

I mean, people complain about lack of choice in the two-party system, right?

A company with 30% has significant power, even if not total domination. The EU has decided to lower the limit where they step in. And it's not an executive-order-like whim by the commission. The DSA was approved by 85% of the European parliament, the DMA by 92%. That's an extraordinary level of agreement from the left to the right.

 

[insomniac86]

You didn't happen to use OpenDoc in the day did you? Did you meet Steve Jobs at a Q&A session?

Apple is a closed ecosystem. We all know this. Apple Wallet facilitates payment. It stores Credit Cards, Loyalty Cards, Membership Cards, Travel tickets and so on in a way it deems best. I wouldn't call it a mess because it doesn't do what you want and because it purposefully doesn't allow other companies to use it's IP (of which, it gets paid of course).

Apple Pay offers a direct service to the bank. Certainly in the UK, there is a piece of legislation called Section 75 which protects the card holder from companies going bust i.e. you pay for goods or services, company goes bust, Bank reimburses you. Paypal doesn't have this protection because it's an intermediary and doesn't deal directly with the bank - it has its own 'private' method of dealing with this sort of thing. Great when it works but you don't have the law on your side when it doesn't.

Finally, if you want open standards, Android is a major competitor well known for its open stance. The problem with open standards is that, like Windows, you need to keep support for older technologies and things don't get updated quickly enough due to the risk of breaking something. This is just Apple's way. You do have a choice.

No, I've always used Microsoft Office, and since the data is open due to the XML-based formats with the .x extensions, it's not a problem.

I must have done a poor job of explaining the issue.

You're confusing two things and overcomplicating it.
There's the payment platform and their protocols; they can be open or closed, and then you have the application endpoint itself.

I don't expect Apple not to have the right to create a closed payment platform (Apple Pay). They can do this all they like and have it interface with their Wallet app. ApplePay (the protocol) doesn't need to be open.

I expect the Wallet application to have an API to allow third parties to plug in and present their own cards within their App. Offering a single location to go to do what they need.

It's the same philosophy with the Home app and the change via the extension of the Matter protocol.
Before the Home App, users required a separate app to control the fan in the kitchen, another to control the different brand of fan in your bedroom, another for the security cameras, another for the aircon, etc. - Bad user experience.
So Apple created the Home app. A solution to be a single application to be the centre point for controlling Smart home devices. The catch? You needed to implement the HomeKit framework that had its own set of hardware requirements and pay Apple a fee. They later moved to opening up the HomeKit protocol to allow for unofficial device support. And the world of Homebridge was born. - Awesome.

Fast forward a few years, and the Home app added support for, Matter (a 3rd party protocol), thereby adding support for even more IoT/Smart home devices which didn't commit to HomeKit.

The Wallet app should have followed the same design principles.

Soon I'm going to end up with seven different app market stores to download the apps I use and hunt through eleven different wallet apps to find the card I need, while I hold up everyone in queue.

This is a bad user experience intentionally put in place for profit.

Apple is going through what Microsoft was forced to do 15 years ago and open things up by court order.
Of course, Apple can develop its own platforms for different solutions and go on to license out for profit, while allowing its OS and native applications to offer support for 3rd party solutions integration.

The EU is forcing Apple to open up parts of the platform, but Apple chooses to make it hard for 3rd parties to implement streamlined solutions in Apples iOS applications.

As you said, Apple Wallet currently supports credit cards, loyalty cards, membership cards, travel tickets, etc.
Yet the majority of stores/shops/companies don't integrate with it.

I personally would prefer to use Apple's native Wallet application over some 3rd party.
What we are going to see, is a bunch of 3rd party Wallet apps being pushed out their, that end up gathering your data, all because Apple didn't open up the Wallet app, and forced developers to produce their own solutions.

Don't confuse platform/backend with frontend application OS integration.
I've been a systems engineer for 20+ years and deal with many different systems on a daily basis. So I understand how things can and could work.

 

[mlayer]

I think you've missed the entire point.

What happens if PayPal decides to end ApplePay support in preference for their own payment framework for more profit? As a result, this forces users to have to use the PayPal app every time they want to make a purchase.
Completely defeated the purpose of a unified wallet.

It's the same reason Apple HomeKit was created and the matter protocol. Single app to control multiple devices. There was a time where every single smart home device required its own app to control anything. - A mess.

That the intent for Wallet was a Digital wallet to replace a physical wallet.
I guess you're an example of my point. No vision or understanding on the end user experience.

If PayPal chooses to do that, it’s a business decision based on how many cents they can claw out of every transaction. It’s not a technical one or anything based on standards. Because there isn’t really a single standard in these types of transactions and PayPal is late to the game. They are bombarding the air waves marketing their ability to use their app as an easy payment method. They are fighting uphill. It is not up to Apple to cater to them. Apple made a very good, easy to implement, widely popular solution. PayPal was once that trailblazer 20 years ago. No longer. The market is creating the consensus.

If the EU or US decides to make a digital wallet standard, fine. They’ll spend a lot of time and money wrangling all of the players. I choose to participate based on how good the implementation is. Not because of some academic notion of how a digital wallet should be conceived. If you want a glimpse into how that might work, look at how long it’s taking for Real ID and digital drivers licenses to roll out.

 

[insomniac86]

If PayPal chooses to do that, it’s a business decision based on how many cents they can claw out of every transaction. It’s not a technical one or anything based on standards. Because there isn’t really a single standard in these types of transactions and PayPal is late to the game. They are bombarding the air waves marketing their ability to use their app as an easy payment method. They are fighting uphill. It is not up to Apple to cater to them. Apple made a very good, easy to implement, widely popular solution. PayPal was once that trailblazer 20 years ago. No longer. The market is creating the consensus.

If the EU or US decides to make a digital wallet standard, fine. They’ll spend a lot of time and money wrangling all of the players. I choose to participate based on how good the implementation is. Not because of some academic notion of how a digital wallet should be conceived.

You don't need to have a unified backend/platform to support this.

It's in Apple's interest to have iOS be easy to use and a friendly OS for all people. Not just the tech-savvy. Isn't it in their best interest to want to attract users to their hardware?

Apple can easily allow for 3rd parties to integrate with their OS. The OS, in this case, being the native iOS Wallet.

Apple can easily have PayPal integrate into Apple Wallet while it not use the ApplePay payment platform.

Can I assume that you don't personally use many digital cards? And if so, you're personally okay with having to browse a bunch of different apps to access anything? Remember, you can only set ONE as the default, which responds to the Wake button double tap and NFC summon.

In my Apple Wallet, I currently have seven bank cards, four digital locks, two access cards (Work and Gym), and 30 odd loyalty cards, about half of which I've digitised.

If I end up having to install over 40 applications to access these, something is seriously wrong with the platform integration and design.

 

[sos47]

Great news! More choice and freedom for consumers in the European Union.

this is not (great) news. here in the EU we can use any debit card of which are registered for apple pay. paypal is just another one

 

[Ad47uk]

Yeah, where else would it be coming from?

I mean it is instant, not that I have used PayPal on my phone, I do use it to pay for some services or goods and i get a email from Paypal to say about the payment and then PayPal takes it out of my account a couple of days later or even longer.
Up to people at the end of the day, but I don;lt see the point in using paypal to pay for things in shops instead of Apple or Google Pa.

 

[Ad47uk]

Funding can be from a bank account, a credit or debit card, or a PayPal balance from money you receive.


A cut of each transaction

Apple Pay Details: Apple Gets 0.15% Cut of Purchases, Higher Rates for Bluetooth Payments

Apple's ambitious new mobile payment initiative, Apple Pay, was announced on Tuesday during the company's iPhone event. Many questions still...

www.macrumors.com

It is when it is directly from a bank account that it takes a while to come up on the account as it is direct debit.

So if Apple gets a cut and the card issuer gets a cut, that must add to the prices we pay. Yet, large stores still say it is cheaper for them than handling cash.
I suppose they have to pay someone to count the cash, also to pick up the cash as well

while using a phone or my watch to pay is supposed to be more secure than paying by card alone, I do sometimes wonder how secure it really is.
My put a hole in my debit card to disable the contactless, got nothing against contactless as such, but a card that can be picked up and used with no security on, no thanks.
My bank now allows people to disable contactless, but that also disable it on phones and watches as well.

 

[Caring4U]

Why? Because Apple decided, if you want a Payment card, you must use OUR payment network. Do you want a loyally card? You must use our choice of Barcode/QR code standards. Do you want a Car key? Well your car manufacturer must use OUR tech... To which we get, you know.... a small license fee for..... Nice one Apple. Nice One...

You hit the nail on the head.

Too many posters in this thread who keep on saying “Oh, I don’t see much different on my iPhone as an end user”. But they are not aware of what goes on in the B2B contracts and how it stifles competition.

 

[Ad47uk]

One benefit would be that it is platform neutral, unlike Apple Pay. If you decide to switch to android, everything is already set up for you.

Only that your cards are added , you still need to download the app and sign in.
Not difficult to add a card to Wallet or Apple Pay.
Not that I use them, but will the PayPal app support loyalty cards? Thai is something that Wallet does, and I think Apple Pay or wallet does as well?

 

[Ad47uk]

Don't you Americans see this coming? The obstacle was Apple's closed NFC payment system, but the EU forced them to open it up. They're already working on Wero Wallet, a European payment system with direct NFC payments from bank accounts, bypassing the fees of US-controlled cards (American Express, VISA, or Mastercard) and without European transactions going through US servers.

Great, an EU payment system, so they can see what you are spending, when and where, just like China.
But saying that, I have just had a loot at it and it seems like it is a private company supported by the Eropean commission, so not sure how much they have a say in it. When you say European payment system, you should say E.U payment system, some countries are in Europe, like the U.K., not in the E.U. From what I have been reading, Wero is only for the E.U, even if they say Europe as well.

I do agree, it would be nice if you could cut ties with the large American card companies.

I did notice on the Wero site, this.
Backed by your trusted banks

I did laugh, who on earth trust banks? I don't, I have to use them, but to be honest, if I did not, I would not.

 

[Ad47uk]

I am a happy PayPal user for payment on the web. I am not sure why I would use it for contactless payments as paying is just 2 clicks away

Agree, but at the end of the day it is giving people choice, which is normally a good thing.

 

[geta]

So instead of connecting your credit card or bank account to the Apple Pay/Wallet app, you connect it to the PayPal app which is actually the same, but you can also use your PayPal balance for paying. Except that, what will be the advantage using one way over the other?

 

[Mrkevinfinnerty]

Apple Wallet was available in in 2015. Yet, PayPal credit and debit cards only became available to be added to Apple Wallet in 2023! Even my crappy little credit union was available to be used for tap to pay earlier than that! I mean, yeah, wait until AFTER Apple’s eaten your lunch to make your cards available in Apple Wallet, that’s how to compete. I would like to have been a fly on the wall as someone in the company convinced them that they didn’t need to be in Apple Wallet even though every card in existence was moving to Apple Wallet. They could have beat the Apple Card to Apple Wallet as that wasn’t released until 2019!

When companies have THAT much of a head start and aren’t able to do anything with it, that’s because they can’t compete. They even let Cashapp beat them to Apple Wallet! What were they thinking? LOL

Launched September 2014. Press release from Apple's site. So six years with very little competition in mobile.

Judging by your comment, i'm not sure you actually understand the nature of these services or competitive business environments. You seem to think that everybody should be racing to the the first to give Apple a cut of their business.

In any case there is a reason a regulator stepped in with Apple pay it was anticompetitive.

 

[InTeCredo]

Why?

I’ve never understood the PayPal bashing.

I’ve been using it many times per week since about 2003 with no issues at all.

Perhaps you need to read more about how PayPal screwed the customers to this day...especially numbers 2, 5, and 10.

10 Reasons Why PayPal Is Considered Terrible In 2025 - ExpertBeacon

If you are looking for a payment service to use, or are already using PayPal, you might be wondering: why is PayPal so bad?

expertbeacon.com

 

[InTeCredo]

Actually excited about it. I use PayPal on a daily basis and can’t wait to try it out. If they offer cashback -> I’m all in PayPal, since not one good creditcard in Germany offers cashback.

Not so fast...

If PayPal offers this or that in the United States, that doesn't automatically mean this or that will be offered in Germany due to the differentiating laws and regulations. That is unless you have the US bank account and PayPal account with US residential or business address.

 

[HMFIC03]

Living in Japan, where there are nearly 60 different ways to pay for things it becomes quickly burdensome with the amount of steps to make a simple payment I can do in the states with one push of a button and not touching the terminal. Not the case at all here. Sometimes less is more or at least less confusing like having a standard charging cable instead of many different options

 

[EuroChilli]

Why?

I’ve never understood the PayPal bashing.

I’ve been using it many times per week since about 2003 with no issues at all.

Also been using PayPal since that time.

True story. I was working at sea and had full satellite internet access courtesy the shipping company. There was something online that I really wanted to buy. At the time all I had was my US bank account in Plymouth NH, and a single ATM card. Somehow, I managed to sign up for PayPal, transfer funds from that bank account to PayPal and purchase the item. (had it sent to our next port of call) This was back in 2003, that's 22 years ago. Still have the PayPal account. No issues come to mind.

 

[I7guy]

Great news! More choice and freedom for consumers in the European Union. In advance, those who downvote me clearly dislike freedom of choice. LOL.

Yep it’s freedom of choice in apples back. But we all see this differently.

 

[CapitalIdea]

Why?

I’ve never understood the PayPal bashing.

I’ve been using it many times per week since about 2003 with no issues at all.

Look up their Honey scandal.

 

[insomniac86]

You hit the nail on the head.

Too many posters in this thread who keep on saying “Oh, I don’t see much different on my iPhone as an end user”. But they are not aware of what goes on in the B2B contracts and how it stifles competition.

Yeah, users here seem to be unnecessarily defensive and don’t understand user experience and implementation.

As I mentioned in a later comment, I have 40 odd cards currently in Apple wallet. Imagine if I had to start using 40+ apps to access each card!? What a nightmare.

The Apple Wallet app and ApplePay are two completely separate things. I think it’s fair if Apple want to only support ApplePay in the Apple Wallet app. But you should be able to add any other payment method, or access card that uses NFC directly to Apple wallet.

As another example, in Melbourne Australia, Google wallet can add Melbourne’s transit card because Google Wallet supports NFC.

On the other hand, Apple has intentionally restricted NFC. This results in all iPhone users having to use a physical card because Melbourne didn’t implement the one specific standard that Apple has chosen for transit card support. This is a bad user experience and completely unnecessary. It exists purely because Apple want a cut for the convenience of their users having a unified wallet.

 

[CapitalIdea]

I don’t agree with this ‘you spend money designing and building it and make it open so every business can profit from it’ approach. Is the EU paying for the R&D, or are they stifling competition by forcing businesses to spend money to support other companies?

Funny you ask. The EU just announced a huge fund to entice researchers from around the world to come there. Now that some other nations are suddenly hostile to scientists’ research, they are ready to benefit from others’ myopia. I’d put a link to the story but don’t want to get suspended for “politics.”

 

[WarmWinterHat]

Perhaps you need to read more about how PayPal screwed the customers to this day...especially numbers 2, 5, and 10.

10 Reasons Why PayPal Is Considered Terrible In 2025 - ExpertBeacon

If you are looking for a payment service to use, or are already using PayPal, you might be wondering: why is PayPal so bad?

expertbeacon.com

I agree that they (PayPal) have had a pretty checkered background, but they do offer an option for the unbanked. Wife is an attorney and will sometimes get paid via PayPal from people who don't have, don't want, or can't get standard bank accounts.

 

[SBlue1]

Not that I pay using my phone that often and i use Android not an Iphone, but even so I don't see the point in using Paypal.
If you use Android pay or what ever, they call it now or Apple pay then the money comes directly out of your bank account or from your credit card. Is that going to happen with Paypal?

I know people say it is good to havce choice, but what does Apple get out of Apple Pay?
Using an Android phone I have the choice to use what ever payment system I like, I used to use a Curve card on my Fitbit watch, because at the time, my bank was not supported until Google took over Fitbit. But that was not instant, and I normally got on my bank account aldi via Curve or something like that.
The good thing about using somethingh liek Googel Pay and I presume Apple pay is that on your bankl statement, it just says the name of the company you have paid, just like using your debit/credit card.


Lately I have been using my chip and pin card more than my phone/watch and to be honest, i am thinking of going back to cash

Since most shops and websites in Europe don’t accept Amex due to its high processing fees, I prefer using PayPal whenever possible, as it allows me to use my Amex card through my PayPal account.

 

[mlayer]

You don't need to have a unified backend/platform to support this.

It's in Apple's interest to have iOS be easy to use and a friendly OS for all people. Not just the tech-savvy. Isn't it in their best interest to want to attract users to their hardware?

Apple can easily allow for 3rd parties to integrate with their OS. The OS, in this case, being the native iOS Wallet.

Apple can easily have PayPal integrate into Apple Wallet while it not use the ApplePay payment platform.

Can I assume that you don't personally use many digital cards? And if so, you're personally okay with having to browse a bunch of different apps to access anything? Remember, you can only set ONE as the default, which responds to the Wake button double tap and NFC summon.

In my Apple Wallet, I currently have seven bank cards, four digital locks, two access cards (Work and Gym), and 30 odd loyalty cards, about half of which I've digitised.

If I end up having to install over 40 applications to access these, something is seriously wrong with the platform integration and design.

Over the past 2-3 years I have observed that most businesses and institutions are bound by their own investment decisions in security and e-commerce, not platforms. My work access - a small business - is incredibly low tech. My gym still uses bar codes like they’re an 80’s public library. My public transit system uses QR codes attached to an app, not NFC for me at least. The QR code system was only implemented last year so it’s gonna take time. We’re all going to be encounter a lack of standardization wherever we go, which only expands as we travel. In every case, cost is the driving factor.

As for the ease of use, scrolling with the Digital Crown among multiple options is pretty close to ideal if it isn’t using location sensing to determine my desired option.

 

[cupcakes2000]

Only that your cards are added , you still need to download the app and sign in.
Not difficult to add a card to Wallet or Apple Pay.
Not that I use them, but will the PayPal app support loyalty cards? Thai is something that Wallet does, and I think Apple Pay or wallet does as well?

Why does it matter to you? If you don’t want to use it, don’t. Apples wallet app isn’t going to magically stop working. One day there maybe an option that works for you, and then you’ll have a choice. Or you have the choice to remain using apples solution.

So much angst over offering new choices for phone payments. I would think you’re all Tim Cook by the way you’re worried about Apple. What about yourselves and the ability to choose (or not)? Bizarre.