Insanely fast cursor movement is a fun little trick in Windows to make you think your computer is faster than it actually is. 
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PC to Powerbook: processor speed
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I was very careful when I posted not to generalise, the example I gave of the Centrino's was one I witnessed first hand I quite agree others will have different opinions. I actually sold my Rev A 17in to an IT technician who wanted a mac in place of his Centrino powered IBM Thinkpad.
Your observations on things like scrolling speed are something I've never thought about. I always used Sidetrack (on my laptops) or a Wacom graphics tablet so never thought of it as an issue. I can't say I've ever had cause to complain.
Startup time is another of these rather grey areas. Most PC's I've owned start up as fast or faster then my macs but a lot of people I know, who have bought new machines without knowing how to look after them, find their's take much longer. I never restart my macs unless I have to they just sleep so it is a mute point from a personal point of view.
I guess it depends what format your used to, I can work much faster on a mac than I can on a PC and given that I use them day in day can make up for any lost performance.
When it comes to performance the current crop of modern processors are faster than the G4 there is no doubt about that but it is always the case that the people who moan and shout about that fact the most are not the ones who make there living from them.
I would always buy AMD processors for any PC I built as I believe on the x86/x64 platform they are the best. Comparing a Athlon 64 against a G4 simply is not a fair comparison you need to compare like for like. Any Athlon 64 observations need to be made against the G5.
The G4 is not the fastest but it is capable and for the moment it is the best laptop chip apple have. Professionals will buy the Powerbooks and use them, I couldn't give a toss if someone has a P4M DDR2 1GHz+ FSB powered plastic brick. Will a new Powerbook fulfil my mobile needs, will it let me run DVD SP, Motion and edit my photos while I'm on a train until I can get back to my G5 and then 2 years down the road let me sell it for 65% of its original price... yes it will. There fore it is the machine for me. Is a Powerbook for everyone? No. You don't want it or don't like then fine but people need to realise not everything is about sheer performance, you choose the right tools for you and the job at hand.
Your observations on things like scrolling speed are something I've never thought about. I always used Sidetrack (on my laptops) or a Wacom graphics tablet so never thought of it as an issue. I can't say I've ever had cause to complain.
Startup time is another of these rather grey areas. Most PC's I've owned start up as fast or faster then my macs but a lot of people I know, who have bought new machines without knowing how to look after them, find their's take much longer. I never restart my macs unless I have to they just sleep so it is a mute point from a personal point of view.
I guess it depends what format your used to, I can work much faster on a mac than I can on a PC and given that I use them day in day can make up for any lost performance.
When it comes to performance the current crop of modern processors are faster than the G4 there is no doubt about that but it is always the case that the people who moan and shout about that fact the most are not the ones who make there living from them.
I would always buy AMD processors for any PC I built as I believe on the x86/x64 platform they are the best. Comparing a Athlon 64 against a G4 simply is not a fair comparison you need to compare like for like. Any Athlon 64 observations need to be made against the G5.
The G4 is not the fastest but it is capable and for the moment it is the best laptop chip apple have. Professionals will buy the Powerbooks and use them, I couldn't give a toss if someone has a P4M DDR2 1GHz+ FSB powered plastic brick. Will a new Powerbook fulfil my mobile needs, will it let me run DVD SP, Motion and edit my photos while I'm on a train until I can get back to my G5 and then 2 years down the road let me sell it for 65% of its original price... yes it will. There fore it is the machine for me. Is a Powerbook for everyone? No. You don't want it or don't like then fine but people need to realise not everything is about sheer performance, you choose the right tools for you and the job at hand.
psycho bob said:
Amen dude. I just got mine and it has more speed than I know what to do with (and I use some intensive apps/gaming). Add the beautiful and brilliant design to the equation... and wow.
Right. I agree. But the poster asked if he would notice a slowdown, so the answer is yes. OS X better than Windows? Of course. Performance of a PowerBook good enough for normal users? Absolutely. Are Macs more productive? Maybe. But the question was whether or not you would notice a slower speed going from a 2.4GHz to a 1.67 PB. And he likely will, and part of that is the slower feel of OS X in general as well as the slower processor itself. We can't assume his PC is running poorly and rely on that to negate the performance penalty.psycho bob said:
EDIT: I should follow up here, too.
Comparing the Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 to the G4 is absolutely fair. If there are any $2000+ notebooks for sale using an original Athlon or a Pentium 3, I'd be just as critical. "Like for like" comparison in this case is the system (top of the line Mac vs. PC notebook), not the CPU. If you're suggesting that PowerBooks aren't in the same class as high-end PC notebooks and shouldn't be compared, then that's far harsher than I proposed.
matticus008 said:
I still say at worst it will feel the same I honestly don't think it will seem any slower. At the end of the day my advice to anyone in his situation is to find a dealer and try one, even dedicated mac users have different opinions as we've proved here.
First hand experience is the only way to tell... a mac might not be for him fullstop. Then again he may take to it like a duck to water and find that the same concerns you have actually fit his way of working better than his PC.
My Athlon 64 is clocked at 2.2GHz stock, and I noticed a difference when trying out a PowerMac. Even my other Mac friends concede that my A64 is a snappier computer than their G5s, though the dual processors give it a lot more muscle over my one processor. Don't get me wrong, my PowerBook is great, full-featured, and amazingly designed. But I don't pretend that it's just as fast as the competition, and I can feel the difference over the latest crop of Centrino 2 notebooks pretty painfully. The PowerBook does everything I expect it to do smoothly, reliably, and fast enough. I could have paid for something to do it all faster, but I wanted the non-benchmark-able benefits of the PB. As you've said, speed isn't the only factor. It's the fastest Mac I've ever owned, and I'm very pleased with it. I daresay it's better than all the PC notebooks I've owned, by a wide margin. But it is definitely slower than the competition; the rest of the experience makes it worthwhile, but that wasn't the question to be answered and I don't pretend that it is flawless.psycho bob said:
I recognize that I gave up some raw speed for an overall better product and I don't try to convince anyone otherwise. I'd do it all again in a heartbeat. That's the kind of loyalty that makes Apple different--informed choices, not blind faith (please note that this is not an accusation directed at you
).
dferrara said:
Ok I will use the most basic example Dell.... and i will add a few things just to make a very fair comparison.
Dell Inspiron 6000
Windows XP Pro
15.4in Wide Aspect LCD 1280x800
Intel Pentium M 730 1.6ghz
512MB DDR2 1 dimm w/ 533FSB
Radeon Mobility X300 128MB DDR
80GB 5400rpm HD
8X DVD+-RW / DVD+R DL
6 cell (53watts) Battery
802.11 A/B/G wireless Intel 2915 chipset
Dell Wireless Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
Quickbooks Simple Start
Microsoft Works 8.0
Microsoft Plus! Digital Media Edtion
iTunes 4.7 is Free
Picasa 2 is Free / iPhoto counterpart
Adobe Premiere Elements $90 / iMovie & iDVD counterpart
or Adobe Premiere & Photoshop Elements 3.0 Combo Pack $136
Trend Micro PC Cillin 2005 $41 before $25 mail-in rebate(Cnets Editors Choice)
or AVG Antivirus which is free and consistently updated
Zone alarm is free which is what I use.
I don't use Norton because it's a resourse hog.
Total Price w/ Adobe Combo Pack and Trend Micro $1850 after rebate.
And now for the PowerBook
PowerBook G4
Mac OSX 10.3
15.2 in Wide Aspect LCD 1280x854
G4 1.67ghz
512MB DDR 1 dill w/ 167mhz bus
Radeon Mobility 9700 128 MB DDR $100
80GB 5400rpm HD
8X DVD+-RW / no DL support
6 Cell (50Watt) battery
Airport Extreme 802.11B/G
Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR
iLife '05
QuickBooks
Total Price $2399
Still $550 Difference that's a Dell 20in Wide Aspect LCD Monitior i can buy , or Lowend Desktop for the office.
Dell
Pros: Superior Performance ,better technology overall, much more upgradable via CPU , optical drive and ram & HD, slighty larger screen , Longer battery life ..lower price point.
Cons: Viruses , malware/spyware , slightly larger and heavier , weaker Videocard for games , no extra cosmetic features the PB has. no DVI , no Firewire 800
PowerBook
Pro: Best In Industry Design , lightweight & thin, great Videocard , Very good Software and OSX. HD protection sensor , Cosmetic features like Aluminum build and backlit keyboard. DVI , Firewire 800.
Cons: Very Limited upgradability and expandability , slower processor , old architecture, less battery life , Wi-fi reception is not great , Slot load optical drive can be expensive to replace. less software in general , not good for higher end games. No Direct X , Active X or WMV/WMA DRM support(so much for porn), sluggish Flash performance , generally slower web browsing and page scrolling.
There you have it.
This thread = booooring.
And to think I once tossed a POS VAIO 2.6 GHz P4 laptop and got me a 550 MHz PowerBook (as temporary as that is... Decided a 800 MHz iMac G4 is a better machine for me).
(I have a 2.6 GHz P4/9700 Pro self-built PC for gaming, so don't say I'm just a PC-hating Mac zealot).
And to think I once tossed a POS VAIO 2.6 GHz P4 laptop and got me a 550 MHz PowerBook (as temporary as that is... Decided a 800 MHz iMac G4 is a better machine for me
).(I have a 2.6 GHz P4/9700 Pro self-built PC for gaming, so don't say I'm just a PC-hating Mac zealot).
matticus008 said:
LOL! I work with Dual Opteron and Dual Xeon boxes all day at work and NONE of them feel faster than my Dual G5. They all feel about the same to me (read FAST), but honestly how do you actually compare Windows (XP, 2003 Server), Linux, Mac OS X they are different OSes running different apps?
To answer the original guys question I have the new PowerBook G4 1.67 GHz 15" / 64 MB Video / 1.5 GB RAM and it feels GREAT. It feels heaps faster than Windows on my Pentium 4 2.4 GHz at work (this is doing normal day to day stuff on both - and playing World of Warcraft at work on the PBook), but that's just because Windows feels slow to me, it draws in windows now and then, locks up for a few seconds and starts again, OS X never does this. This shouldn't be taken as fact though it's impossible to compare 2 different OSes just on speed, OS X is just plain better! Go to a shop try one out, take in to consideration how much RAM it has in it and make your own mind up.
sheesh, i didnt have an argument like this since elementary.
technically there probably is a difference in speed, realistically you probably wont notice very much of a difference at all.
if you want a better OS and more stable system and less maintenance get the mac. if you want a fast system get a G5
problem solved.
technically there probably is a difference in speed, realistically you probably wont notice very much of a difference at all.
if you want a better OS and more stable system and less maintenance get the mac. if you want a fast system get a G5
problem solved.
Hector said:
You shoud read more carefully , as I wrote WMA/WMV DRM , I know there is a WMP 9 for mac but it's not compatible with anything that has DRM. Neither does VLC.
Hector said:
Yeah, this is why I believe VLC is even superior to QT, b/c it is INCREDIBLY portable.
Windows XP? Yeah it works. OSX? Yup there too. Need to install codecs for Windows (yuck)? Nope. Quicktime won't play it (happens alot)? VLC will.
Seriously, if I didn't have VLC on my iBook, it'd be a pretty miserable movie watching experience. And one comment: OSX's VLC interface is a heckuva lot prettier than XP's.
jiggie2g said:
Okay, touche, well done.
That was a much more objective post, and I agree with your points.For faster browsing, have you tried Firefox? Safari will be rather poor until the updated version in Tiger... the difference between Firefox and Safari right now is like night and day for certain websites.
Also, anyone know what ATI X### card the Radeon 9700 translates into? X500/X600?
The comparison wasn't overall. General feel is based on simple, easy tasks as I've already said--it doesn't matter that they look different or might run different applications, because they all use the same desktop metaphor and the same conventions, making for an easy and direct comparison. Specific points I've made indicate this.risc said:
- Try out scrolling, for example. It's better, smoother, faster, and more responsive on Windows and Linux. Even on the fastest G5, what happens when you grab the scroll widget and move it up and down a page, say a long thread like this one? OS X just plain sucks at keeping up.
- Its (OS X) redraws are smoother, but also more resource intensive and slower. Better quality, yes, but slower.
- Menus don't appear quickly enough (I'm not talking about transition effects, I'm talking actual element propagation), and scrolling through directories full of thumbnails are painful on G4s (the G5, to its credit, is better at this).
- The mouse on any given Mac will not go from one side of the screen to the other side of the screen in one arc without lifting the mouse and moving it to gain more movement. This is not a problem on my Windows, Linux, and Solaris computers, even using the exact same mouse and much less than maximum settings (other developers have pointed out this weakness in OS X and created products like MouseZoom to attempt to fix it).
- The acceleration schema of OS X is just plain annoying for my graphics work. I prefer to control the speed of the mouse with my own hand, rather than have my computer assume that because I'm moving the mouse more slowly, I want the cursor to move less. I want it to move just as far, only slower. Windows lets me disable acceleration so I can do that. It is a major hassle for me and why I still rely on Windows-based Photoshop for fine detailing, and I've found no satisfactory method of disabling it on my Macs.
- Network browsing is a lot snappier (though I admit we use an Active Directory domain at work, which does disadvantage the Mac), though OS X is faster at mounting network shares.
- Every single one of my regular-use machines (which vary from an Athlon XP 1800+ to a dual Opteron 2.0GHz to a Pentium 4 3.6 to an Athlon 64 3500+) boots faster than the dual 1.25 G4 I have or my PowerBook 1.67. None of them have issues with sleeping and two of the above are servers that don't get restarted frequently (read: ever, emergencies excepted)...but I still notice it and so does everyone else. All of my Windows machines boot in under 30 seconds from power-off. The Linux servers take longer, but that is because of the startup services and some specialized configuration. As a sysadmin, every second of downtime is a crisis.
- OS X stores windows as textures, which is great for visual appeal and manipulation, but causes a great deal of unnecessary overhead on strained hardware. I have reason to believe that Tiger will help greatly in this regard, but for productivity and performance, it's best not to rely on OpenGL because it adds some sluggishness.
- Programs launch faster in Windows. I'm not assessing third-party applications and added software, but simple programs like calculator and text editors and the command console take noticeably longer to start under OS X. Maybe it's the bouncing dock icon, I thought. But no, launching from the Applications folder exhibits this behavior as well. Something like calculator should appear immediately, not a full second after I double-click. It does in Linux and even in bloated Windows.
- On the PowerBook, system notification sounds are often hesitant (read: late). My G4 tower does not suffer from this, so it might be unique to either PowerBooks or my PowerBook and I'll have to investigate further. Neither Linux nor Windows, again, struggle with simple audio alerts. But it's a sign of a strained system.
Are these little things that don't really matter and don't mean much in terms of the processing power of the computer? Yeah. But they are also obvious little bits that users face every day. As a veteran user of three platforms with a strong preference for OS X, I can get over them. But as a new switcher, it's something I would immediately notice in the first several days/weeks of using a Mac that might lead to a feeling of slowness. Most Mac users I know, once seated next to a Mac and a PC with me pointing out these differences will acknowledge them. File it under "huh, that's weird," not "holy crap, OS X must really suck." But a question deserves an honest answer. These are things I've noticed consistently on multiple machines to the point where I'm comfortable with the statement. There is an excellent article on GUI design that mentions nearly all of these points in a critical review of OS X and Windows from a command-line junkie...but I can't find the link right now.
dferrara said:Okay, touche, well done.
For faster browsing, have you tried Firefox? Safari will be rather poor until the updated version in Tiger... the difference between Firefox and Safari right now is like night and day for certain websites.
Also, anyone know what ATI X### card the Radeon 9700 translates into? X500/X600?
it's a 9600, the mobility 9600= 9600 NP and the 9700 = 9600 pro.
Hector said:
Actually the Mobility 9700 is an 8 pipeline card the 9600 Pro is only 4 , the worst 8 pipleline card will kill the best 4 pipe card. I say Mobility 9700 = vanilla 9700 on desktop, there is really no Radeon X*** series equavalent , because the X700 Pro is much more powerful and is the only 8 pipe card in the X series line up.
matticus008 said:
I like mouse movement much better in OS X than in Windows. I feel this is preference. I agree that OS X should allow the user change the preferences.
Specific points I've made indicate this.
- Try out scrolling, for example. It's better, smoother, faster, and more responsive on Windows and Linux. Even on the fastest G5, what happens when you grab the scroll widget and move it up and down a page, say a long thread like this one? OS X just plain sucks at keeping up.
Works just fine for me on my G5 and my PowerBook 1.67.
- Its (OS X) redraws are smoother, but also more resource intensive and slower. Better quality, yes, but slower.
Don't notice this at all.
- Menus don't appear quickly enough (I'm not talking about transition effects, I'm talking actual element propagation), and scrolling through directories full of thumbnails are painful on G4s (the G5, to its credit, is better at this).
Works fine for me.
- The mouse on any given Mac will not go from one side of the screen to the other side of the screen in one arc without lifting the mouse and moving it to gain more movement. This is not a problem on my Windows, Linux, and Solaris computers, even using the exact same mouse and much less than maximum settings (other developers have pointed out this weakness in OS X and created products like MouseZoom to attempt to fix it).
My mouse works fine, I don't have this at all on any of my Macs.
- The acceleration schema of OS X is just plain annoying for my graphics work. I prefer to control the speed of the mouse with my own hand, rather than have my computer assume that because I'm moving the mouse more slowly, I want the cursor to move less. I want it to move just as far, only slower. Windows lets me disable acceleration so I can do that. It is a major hassle for me and why I still rely on Windows-based Photoshop for fine detailing, and I've found no satisfactory method of disabling it on my Macs.
Can't say I've noticed this but I haven't been looking.
- Network browsing is a lot snappier (though I admit we use an Active Directory domain at work, which does disadvantage the Mac), though OS X is faster at mounting network shares.
You could be right I haven't even looked in to this, everything network related works fine for me on OS X.
- Every single one of my regular-use machines (which vary from an Athlon XP 1800+ to a dual Opteron 2.0GHz to a Pentium 4 3.6 to an Athlon 64 3500+) boots faster than the dual 1.25 G4 I have or my PowerBook 1.67. None of them have issues with sleeping and two of the above are servers that don't get restarted frequently (read: ever, emergencies excepted)...but I still notice it and so does everyone else. All of my Windows machines boot in under 30 seconds from power-off. The Linux servers take longer, but that is because of the startup services and some specialized configuration. As a sysadmin, every second of downtime is a crisis.
I don't know what point you are making here so I wont comment.
- OS X stores windows as textures, which is great for visual appeal and manipulation, but causes a great deal of unnecessary overhead on strained hardware. I have reason to believe that Tiger will help greatly in this regard, but for productivity and performance, it's best not to rely on OpenGL because it adds some sluggishness.
No problems here on any of my Macs.
- Programs launch faster in Windows. I'm not assessing third-party applications and added software, but simple programs like calculator and text editors and the command console take noticeably longer to start under OS X. Maybe it's the bouncing dock icon, I thought. But no, launching from the Applications folder exhibits this behavior as well. Something like calculator should appear immediately, not a full second after I double-click. It does in Linux and even in bloated Windows.
Programs like Calculator, Terminal etc load instantly on all of my Macs.
- On the PowerBook, system notification sounds are often hesitant (read: late). My G4 tower does not suffer from this, so it might be unique to either PowerBooks or my PowerBook and I'll have to investigate further. Neither Linux nor Windows, again, struggle with simple audio alerts. But it's a sign of a strained system.
This doesn't happen to me at all on any Mac.
My Power Mac G5 has 2GB RAM, my PowerBook G4 has 1.5 GB, and the iMac G5 has 1 GB RAM. Maybe you need more RAM?
- Try out scrolling, for example. It's better, smoother, faster, and more responsive on Windows and Linux. Even on the fastest G5, what happens when you grab the scroll widget and move it up and down a page, say a long thread like this one? OS X just plain sucks at keeping up.
Works just fine for me on my G5 and my PowerBook 1.67.
- Its (OS X) redraws are smoother, but also more resource intensive and slower. Better quality, yes, but slower.
Don't notice this at all.
- Menus don't appear quickly enough (I'm not talking about transition effects, I'm talking actual element propagation), and scrolling through directories full of thumbnails are painful on G4s (the G5, to its credit, is better at this).
Works fine for me.
- The mouse on any given Mac will not go from one side of the screen to the other side of the screen in one arc without lifting the mouse and moving it to gain more movement. This is not a problem on my Windows, Linux, and Solaris computers, even using the exact same mouse and much less than maximum settings (other developers have pointed out this weakness in OS X and created products like MouseZoom to attempt to fix it).
My mouse works fine, I don't have this at all on any of my Macs.
- The acceleration schema of OS X is just plain annoying for my graphics work. I prefer to control the speed of the mouse with my own hand, rather than have my computer assume that because I'm moving the mouse more slowly, I want the cursor to move less. I want it to move just as far, only slower. Windows lets me disable acceleration so I can do that. It is a major hassle for me and why I still rely on Windows-based Photoshop for fine detailing, and I've found no satisfactory method of disabling it on my Macs.
Can't say I've noticed this but I haven't been looking.
- Network browsing is a lot snappier (though I admit we use an Active Directory domain at work, which does disadvantage the Mac), though OS X is faster at mounting network shares.
You could be right I haven't even looked in to this, everything network related works fine for me on OS X.
- Every single one of my regular-use machines (which vary from an Athlon XP 1800+ to a dual Opteron 2.0GHz to a Pentium 4 3.6 to an Athlon 64 3500+) boots faster than the dual 1.25 G4 I have or my PowerBook 1.67. None of them have issues with sleeping and two of the above are servers that don't get restarted frequently (read: ever, emergencies excepted)...but I still notice it and so does everyone else. All of my Windows machines boot in under 30 seconds from power-off. The Linux servers take longer, but that is because of the startup services and some specialized configuration. As a sysadmin, every second of downtime is a crisis.
I don't know what point you are making here so I wont comment.
- OS X stores windows as textures, which is great for visual appeal and manipulation, but causes a great deal of unnecessary overhead on strained hardware. I have reason to believe that Tiger will help greatly in this regard, but for productivity and performance, it's best not to rely on OpenGL because it adds some sluggishness.
No problems here on any of my Macs.
- Programs launch faster in Windows. I'm not assessing third-party applications and added software, but simple programs like calculator and text editors and the command console take noticeably longer to start under OS X. Maybe it's the bouncing dock icon, I thought. But no, launching from the Applications folder exhibits this behavior as well. Something like calculator should appear immediately, not a full second after I double-click. It does in Linux and even in bloated Windows.
Programs like Calculator, Terminal etc load instantly on all of my Macs.
- On the PowerBook, system notification sounds are often hesitant (read: late). My G4 tower does not suffer from this, so it might be unique to either PowerBooks or my PowerBook and I'll have to investigate further. Neither Linux nor Windows, again, struggle with simple audio alerts. But it's a sign of a strained system.
This doesn't happen to me at all on any Mac.
My Power Mac G5 has 2GB RAM, my PowerBook G4 has 1.5 GB, and the iMac G5 has 1 GB RAM. Maybe you need more RAM?
Hector said:
That sucks , kinda gives a sense of false advertisement on ATI's part because it is named after a famous 8 pipe card, but the Mobility 9800 and X700 Pro are similar being both 8 pipe but differ in features like 3Dc , HyperZ HD engine and Memory interface 256 bit on the Mobility 9800 vs. 128 bit for the Mobility X700/ desktop X700 Pro. I know the Moblity X300's perform similar to the mobility 9600's as they have the same fill rate of 1.3 gigapixels/sec and 128 bit interface.