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Like I said - if Apple told the truth about its reasons and thus gave us all an understandable rule for how to know if something is acceptable in the appstore, I'd have no problem with it.

"It came to the point where we were getting customer complaints from women who found the content getting too degrading and objectionable, as well as parents who were upset with what their kids were able to see.
The difference is this (Playboy / SI) is a well-known company with previously published material available broadly in a well-accepted format"

Seems clear to me. Unless you are accepted enough to appear on the simpsons - you aren't going to get by peddling cheap smut.
 
"It came to the point where we were getting customer complaints from women who found the content getting too degrading and objectionable, as well as parents who were upset with what their kids were able to see.
The difference is this (Playboy / SI) is a well-known company with previously published material available broadly in a well-accepted format"

Seems clear to me. Unless you are accepted enough to appear on the simpsons - you aren't going to get by peddling cheap smut.

Then why'd they just let that swimsuit company back on? It's not a "well-known company." And since " previously published material available broadly in a well-accepted format" is meaningless drivel, who knows if it's that.
 
What on earth are you talking about? In what FSM-forsaken hellhole do you live where sex ed. is child molestation?

Go back to my original question and try it out for yourself. Sex-ed makes sense, yes, but when a child goes to school and says "I found daddy and mommy making babies and they told me ALLLLLL about it!" just wait for the social workers and police to come breaking down your door.
 
Time to change course for Apple

Many posts here are missing the point. I also think it is funny that some people argue for Apple like "They own the app store and so they can do whatever they want with it". That is only a partially true statement.

Another group argues about their own values. Who cares. Everybody is entitled to have their own beliefs and views on sexuality.

Coming back to "Apple owns the store". This statement is a problem for many customers including me who would like to see some applications (not necessarily sexual content), but they can't because Apple doesn't approve them.

Now, Apple can tell me "This is our store", but in the long run this will just mean that I will put my money elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong. I love Apple products, but I do see censorship and limitations as big problem. I also know that other people (friends, co-workers, etc.) see it the same way.

Basically, I don't need anyone, including Apple, to tell me what I can do, listen or watch. It is my personal choice. I hope Apple will eventually get this message. It would be sad to see their nice products disappear because of ignorance towards customer feedback.

For the issue at hand I can understand parents being upset when their kids watch "porn" (I personally don't consider any of Apple's offerings to be porn), but it is sad to see that these people push their parenting responsibility on Apple instead of working it out on their own. Technically seen it should be fairly simple to implement parental protection into the iPhone OS, but I am guessing it hasn't been a priority for Apple because you can't make money out of it...

Other than that I have to repeat that it is time for Apple to wake up. The droid is shaping up nicely and multitasking beats Apple's crappy push notifications anytime.

It also find it laughable that Apple distinguishes between well known companies and others. Come on. Boobs are boobs. It doesn't matter if they come from Playboy or from average Joe developer. Or, wait, I am missing the point now. It is making money! Obviously, Playboy would be quite upset if they would get banned. They might even sue Apple I guess... An option average Joe developer does not have.

Be smart. Apple used to be great, but lately a lot of things are far away from being golden...
 
Go back to my original question and try it out for yourself. Sex-ed makes sense, yes, but when a child goes to school and says "I found daddy and mommy making babies and they told me ALLLLLL about it!" just wait for the social workers and police to come breaking down your door.

Yeah, that's not how it works where I live, so I repeat my question.
 
And how sexist is it to presume that women somehow have a lower threshold for accepting titillating apps than do men.

Let me ask you this: If the app store suddenly started getting loaded with apps that prominently displayed and 'jiggled' thousands of 'man parts', with or without showing off the attached body, would you appreciate it? Maybe the ladies would prefer that instead.
 
I fully support Apple doing this. It isn't censorship, it's choosing what they want to offer in their store.

EXCEPT that there are NO ALTERNATIVES to the Apple store for iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch software. In fact, that's a bit of an anti-competition problem in general, IMO. Just because the iPhone OS (which is being brought to increasingly larger and more computer-like devices all the time) is made for so-called "mobile" devices (like the iPad is anymore "mobile" than a Macbook), that doesn't excuse the ability to monopolize the entire distribution chain for software and then censor what applications will be "allowed" on your own property/hardware. This would NEVER (well I take that back; it *SHOULD* never) be allowed for the personal computer platform so I'm at a loss to understand why it SHOULD be allowed for something like the iPad, which is essentially a tablet computer. And without hard controls in place to know ahead off time if Apple is just going to arbitrarily reject your app, they are wasting developer time and resources and answer to no one for it. And yet certain people refuse to even accept the idea that Apple has a stranglehold on their hardware (for all Macs) and software markets (for the Iphone/Touch/iPad).

It's getting RIDICULOUS IMO and this sort of thing should be addressed by the justice department (and yes that includes alternate mobile platforms as well; developers should not be restricted. It is the 21st century equivalent of denying "free press" since software is free expression and by allowing corporations to arbitrarily deny software developers the right to develop software for a publicly available platform, they are in effect denying the right to free press. What's next? Time/Warner denying the right to view certain web pages on Road Runner that conflicts with their personal interests (say blocking DirectTV's web site and shopping sites that sell related equipment). This is a very slipper slope, IMO. Where does it end?
 
Not in agreement with Apple on this one

I understand that Apple is looking at protecting their image and having the ability to avoid litigation. But these type of actions will be counter productive and extremely dangerous in the future.

Today, This type of mass banning will create litigation from a developer if an App gets singled out as being "overtly sexual" and it turns out to be educational in nature (I.e. Biology, Anatomy, Medical, etc.) because someone complained and Apple "needs to protect the children!"

Unfortunately, history has taught us that these types of censorship issues has led to the "Few" dictating what is good for the "many" Atrocities have been committed in the name of "protecting the children". While Apple is not a government, a large Multi-National Corporation can exert a great deal of pressure as much as a Government can without the rules we have for Governments.

IF Apple wants to address these complaints, they could make a change in the App store and segregate the "Adult" apps to those accounts that have a verified Credit card attached to them. Or ad the SSN to the account as part of the verification.

Most children have allowances in the iTunes store which are setup by their parents or manage purchases through gift cards. Either way, these accounts don't have a credit card attached to them If a parent is stupid enough to give their kid their credit card to purchase anything they want, then the parent is responsible for anything that the child does.

IN the end, parents are responsible for what their children do, no company or government should be the parent to a child.

I hate being political on this issue, but Apple is getting themselves into these type of discussion by censoring.
 
I'm guessing that Apple wants to control what "borderline" apps are available on it's MOBILE devices because they are. . . well, mobile. People read Playboy and Sports Illustrated on the train to and from work. I'm not sure I want Creepy Guy Joe Iwanking next to me. Or next to my kid and her friends on the way home from school. And before you pull the Safari argument, I'll say that surfing porn sites isn't the ONLY thing you can do on a web browser. At home it's easier to restrict who's watching the screen when you're doing "grown-up" things. I guarantee you that the first kid who sees a penis in public because someone is Iwanking and tells mommy and daddy about it results in the parents going after Apple and the app developer along with with penis holder.

I also wonder how many people against Apple's move have a desktop full of specialty programs on their desktop and laptops that ONLY wobble breasts or remove a women's clothes with x-ray specs?

Why do you need them on your Iphone?

Dave
 
It's getting RIDICULOUS IMO and this sort of thing should be addressed by the justice department (and yes that includes alternate mobile platforms as well; developers should not be restricted. It is the 21st century equivalent of denying "free press" since software is free expression and by allowing corporations to arbitrarily deny software developers the right to develop software for a publicly available platform, they are in effect denying the right to free press.

Free speech and free press guarantees are for protection against the government. They do not require private individuals, corporations, or news agencies to provide a free speech platform.

By your interpretation newspapers would have to publish every crackpot letter that is sent to the editor. Sorry, it just does not work that way.
 
Let me ask you this: If the app store suddenly started getting loaded with apps that prominently displayed and 'jiggled' thousands of 'man parts', with or without showing off the attached body, would you appreciate it? Maybe the ladies would prefer that instead.

Why would I care?
 
If it was based on complaints, they would have only removed apps people complained about.

Intellectual dishonesty makes me indignant. Like I said - if Apple told the truth about its reasons and thus gave us all an understandable rule for how to know if something is acceptable in the appstore, I'd have no problem with it.
And if whole categories are being complained about, you review the whole category. And if you're getting conflicting complaints from concerned parents and rabid free-expressionists, you try to find a middle ground.

I really don't see anything intellectually dishonest here. I see a company trying to maintain a business. Developers know there's an approval process. The uproar over iFart was early demonstration that Apple intends to monitor content. They continue to look for a workable arrangement. Rapidly evolving markets are messy. If you're developing an App that may be subject to complaint, account for it in your business plan.
"Garbage" developers are developers nonetheless. They have a right to have their approved material sold just like everyone else.
Yeah, see? This is the root of the problem. Developers don't have a right to have their applications sold by Apple.
If the concern is someone not being able to purchase an app because there are too many juvenile apps confusing them, that problem is easily solvable by better sorting the apps.
I'm sure that approach was considered, and they came to different conclusion. Making that assertion with such limited insight into the business is kind of a stretch.

Apple's approach has always been to limit options with an eye towards reducing complexity. Anyone who's spent time on OS X vs Windows has seen that. They look at the available options, decide what has value, and prune the rest.
The question is not whether this decision does them more harm than good. It probably won't affect their profits at all, really.
Another assertion without grounds, but one that has a lot of case studies suggesting otherwise. Why do you think businesses are so concerned about their "brand"?
The REAL question is: If the apps are being removed because they are offending people, then why hasn't other 'offensive' material in the iTunes store been removed?

The issue is hypocrisy, plain and simple. Justifications can be attempted, but the issue remains.
Wow, how people love the word hypocrisy... Is every middle ground hypocritical? If I make the decision that I'm going to cull the proliferation of crappy pseudo-porn as a concession to the complaining parents, but keep a small number of more broadly acceptable but still suggestive applications to please the free-expression activists, am I compromising or being a hypocrite?

People keep making this simple-minded assumption that multi-dimensional issues can be laid out nicely on a line where we can pick a point such that everything falls neatly on one side or the other. It just doesn't work that way. Nor is it true that we all have identically values such that what passes a selection criteria for one of us will pass that criteria for all of us.

I suggest saving the term "hypocrisy" for situations that are much more starkly delineated.
You should stop making up quotes. It only weakens your arguments.
Sorry, I assumed people could tell what was paraphrased as opposed to a direct quotation. But you're right, most people don't bother to read the original source and could be confused by that. I corrected the original post.
 
Wow, how people love the word hypocrisy... Is every middle ground hypocritical? If I make the decision that I'm going to cull the proliferation of crappy pseudo-porn as a concession to the complaining parents, but keep a small number of more broadly acceptable but still suggestive applications to please the free-expression activists, am I compromising or being a hypocrite?

Hypocrisy: From wikipedia (hate to cite wikipedia, but other references match): "Hypocrisy is the act of persistently pretending to hold beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually hold. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie."

Apple pretends to hold the virtue of protecting our children. It does not actually hold this virtue, as evidenced by the inconsistencies in its ban-hammering approach. This isn't rocket science. Apple's behavior doesn't match its words, and that is hypocrisy, whether you choose to agree or not. You are pretending the apps that haven't (yet) been banned are somehow substantively different that the ones that have. You are pretending that cartoon short skirts in an arcade game are somehow different than actual nudity in movies distributed on itunes. Give it up already. Apple's inconsistent approach proves they are not putting "kids first" as Schiller claimed in the quotes I earlier cited.
 
At the time Microsoft had a 95% plus market share - that was a monopoly. Apple has nowhere near that kind of market share - estimates put them at the #3 platform.

Not to mention that MS used their monopoly to muscle out other competitors illegally was the ticker.


Apple owns 100% of the legal iPhone application market.


I'm very pleased to see this conversation turn around to anti-trust. Very nice.
 
Apple pretends to hold the virtue of protecting our children. It does not actually hold this virtue, as evidenced by the inconsistencies in its ban-hammering approach.

Not quite

It makes exceptions on its rule according to public acceptance - not purely financial gain.
 
It's getting RIDICULOUS IMO and this sort of thing should be addressed by the justice department (and yes that includes alternate mobile platforms as well; developers should not be restricted. It is the 21st century equivalent of denying "free press" since software is free expression and by allowing corporations to arbitrarily deny software developers the right to develop software for a publicly available platform, they are in effect denying the right to free press. What's next? Time/Warner denying the right to view certain web pages on Road Runner that conflicts with their personal interests (say blocking DirectTV's web site and shopping sites that sell related equipment). This is a very slipper slope, IMO. Where does it end?
I think it ends in free enterprise.
Apple pretends to hold the virtue of protecting our children. It does not actually hold this virtue, as evidenced by the inconsistencies in its ban-hammering approach. This isn't rocket science. Apple's behavior doesn't match its words, and that is hypocrisy, whether you choose to agree or not. You are pretending the apps that haven't (yet) been banned are somehow substantively different that the ones that have. You are pretending that cartoon short skirts in an arcade game are somehow different than actual nudity in movies distributed on itunes. Give it up already. Apple's inconsistent approach proves they are not putting "kids first" as Schiller claimed in the quotes I earlier cited.
And you consistently pretend that Apple is claiming an altruistic concern for children when they clearly stated they are responding to complaints. This is precisely what I meant in the part you clipped about the false linearization of issues. Apple has a complex set of concerns, and I'm sure the welfare of children is among them but not their sole motivating factor. This leads to complex policies. You're trying to build a manifesto out of a sound bite. If you're going to focus on one soothing comment to concerned parents and disregard every other statement the company has made, then it's starting to look like you're just looking for an excuse to go hyperbolic.
 
I think it ends in free enterprise.

And you consistently pretend that Apple is claiming an altruistic concern for children when they clearly stated they are responding to complaints. This is precisely what I mean by the false linearization of issues. Apple has a complex set of concerns, and I'm sure the welfare of children is among them but not their sole motivating factor. This leads to complex policies. You're trying to build a manifesto out of a sound bite. If you're going to focus on one soothing comment to concerned parents and disregard every other statement the company has made, then it's starting to look like you're just looking for an excuse to go hyperbolic.

Go back and look at the two quotes where Apple specifically said it did it for the kids. All I ask is that Apple be honest and state specifically what it's criteria are. I don't understand why you find this "hyperbolic." What's so hard about clearly stating what the rules are?
 
Go back and look at the two quotes where Apple specifically said it did it for the kids. All I ask is that Apple be honest and state specifically what it's criteria are. I don't understand why you find this "hyperbolic." What's so hard about clearly stating what the rules are?
Even the Supreme Court had to resort to "I know it when I see it" in their attempt to define pornography. This is one of those multi-dimensional issues I keep referring to. Look at the lack of success the FCC has had in regulating television content.

I'm curious though-- have you requested the rules from Apple? I don't actually know that such rules don't exist.
 
...disregard every other statement the company has made...
Strange how a developer gets an email that states "We have decided to remove any overtly sexual content from the App Store" and yet they have to read an article from the NYT to find out that "any" actually means "most except for those from well-known companies with previously published material available broadly in a well-accepted format".
 
Yeah, see? This is the root of the problem. Developers don't have a right to have their applications sold by Apple.

This is not the root of the problem. You're right, having their applications sold is a privilege. However, Apple maintains that all developers, big and small, are equal. This is obviously not the case.

I'm sure that approach was considered, and they came to different conclusion. Making that assertion with such limited insight into the business is kind of a stretch.

How are you "sure" that approach was considered? How is my insight "limited", but not yours? For all you know, I work for Apple.

If I make the decision that I'm going to cull the proliferation of crappy pseudo-porn as a concession to the complaining parents, but keep a small number of more broadly acceptable but still suggestive applications to please the free-expression activists, am I compromising or being a hypocrite?

Hypothetical speculation. Are you privy to Apple's motivation in retaining certain apps? The fact of the matter is that it is hypocritical to remove some offensive material, but retain others.

People keep making this simple-minded assumption that multi-dimensional issues can be laid out nicely on a line where we can pick a point such that everything falls neatly on one side or the other. It just doesn't work that way. Nor is it true that we all have identically values such that what passes a selection criteria for one of us will pass that criteria for all of us.

I suggest saving the term "hypocrisy" for situations that are much more starkly delineated.
.

Starkly delineated? How's this:

You can download and listen to an offensive song in iTunes, but you can't download an 'offensive' app.

You can watch a TV show or movie with nudity, swearing, violence, etc, but you can't download an app with that.

You can see a woman in a swimsuit in Playboy, but you can't view one in Joe Schmo's app.

It's as clear as day, yet some people can't admit the truth. Corporations can be hypocritical, it's okay, it's not the end of the world. I'm only pointing it out to you.
 
Even the Supreme Court had to resort to "I know it when I see it" in their attempt to define pornography. This is one of those multi-dimensional issues I keep referring to. Look at the lack of success the FCC has had in regulating television content.

I'm curious though-- have you requested the rules from Apple? I don't actually know that such rules don't exist.

When one requests the rules one is ignored.

And the Supreme Court did not resort to "I know it when I see it" for pornography - it was obscenity (which is different). Further, they didn't rely on it - the test is:

(i) Depict or describe sexual conduct -AND-
(ii) conduct specifically defined by the state law -AND-
(iii) limited to works which, taken as a whole, appeal to the prurient interest in sex -AND-
1. average person, applying contemporary community standards would find, as a whole, the work appeals to that prurient interest
(iv) which portray sexual conduct in a patently offensive way -AND-
(v) which taken as a whole do not have serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value

If Apple would adopt that test I'd be happy. I'd be happy if they stated any test as clear as that one [as fuzzy as it is], in fact.
 
Down with Jiggleboobs

Compared to 'jiggleboobs,' yes.

I can see that. I think that app is offensive. But Apple should never have allowed that app in the first place. This was Apple's way to choke off competition for publications such as Playboy. So they will sign on to the iPad. I'm done wasting my time with this forum. This has nothing to do with nudity or offensiveness, otherwise a lot more apps would be removed. This is about money; it is about the future of paper and who will be allowed to make money. It is about closing off competition so only a select few can reap the benefits of the iPad gold rush.
 
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