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Starkly delineated? How's this:

You can download and listen to an offensive song in iTunes, but you can't download an 'offensive' app.

You can watch a TV show or movie with nudity, swearing, violence, etc, but you can't download an app with that.

You can see a woman in a swimsuit in Playboy, but you can't view one in Joe Schmo's app.

It's as clear as day, yet some people can't admit the truth. Corporations can be hypocritical, it's okay, it's not the end of the world. I'm only pointing it out to you.
I wonder what it's like to have the world look so binary. Offensive is in the view of the user. You're picking a definition and claiming someone else is violating it, not to mention that music and video are largely pre-screened by the studios.

The App Store is unique in that Apple is the sole reviewer.

When one requests the rules one is ignored.

And the Supreme Court did not resort to "I know it when I see it" for pornography - it was obscenity (which is different). Further, they didn't rely on it - the test is:

(i) Depict or describe sexual conduct -AND-
(ii) conduct specifically defined by the state law -AND-
(iii) limited to works which, taken as a whole, appeal to the prurient interest in sex -AND-
1. average person, applying contemporary community standards would find, as a whole, the work appeals to that prurient interest
(iv) which portray sexual conduct in a patently offensive way -AND-
(v) which taken as a whole do not have serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value

If Apple would adopt that test I'd be happy. I'd be happy if they stated any test as clear as that one [as fuzzy as it is], in fact.
Actually it was describing pornography which would, in turn, have been ruled obscene.

If you think rules like this are going to reduce the controversy, I still think you're jousting windmills. These rules are going to lead to just as many arguments about hypocrisy because one person's art is another person's obscenity which leads to all the same failures to comprehend complexity that is so prevalent in these threads already.

This has been fun, but I've got work to do... Uncle.
 
What about music, movies and TV shows?

I'm scratching my head as I watch this app story continue because it's completely illogical. On what basis does Apple distinguish between music, movies and television shows with plenty of sexual content -- which are still available from the iTunes store -- and the applications they've chosen to censor? It smells an awful lot like the selective book burning some of us thought we left behind last century. Apple, please explain.
 
I understand that Apple is looking at protecting their image and having the ability to avoid litigation. But these type of actions will be counter productive and extremely dangerous in the future.
I fully expect that the World History textbook of my future (hopefully) grandchild will point to the downfall of all civilization proceeding from Apple declining to sell self-defined overtly sexual apps in the iTunes store. Extremely dangerous? Though I do respect your opinion to label it as such, I just find it a bit overblown.

Today, This type of mass banning will create litigation from a developer if an App gets singled out as being "overtly sexual" and it turns out to be educational in nature (I.e. Biology, Anatomy, Medical, etc.) because someone complained and Apple "needs to protect the children!"
And those complainers would be stupid. Though they would have the right to complain. Litigation? I doubt it. Developers could make their case in the approval process, couldn't they?

Unfortunately, history has taught us that these types of censorship issues has led to the "Few" dictating what is good for the "many" Atrocities have been committed in the name of "protecting the children". While Apple is not a government, a large Multi-National Corporation can exert a great deal of pressure as much as a Government can without the rules we have for Governments.
Well, not every government plays by the same rules, at least as I look at various countries around the globe. I respect your right to hold an opinion, but I feel you are taking huge leaps when you equate this to atrocities.

IF Apple wants to address these complaints, they could make a change in the App store and segregate the "Adult" apps to those accounts that have a verified Credit card attached to them. Or ad the SSN to the account as part of the verification.
I agree, they should have a better system. I have no desire to give Apple, or any other retailer, my SSN, though. If Apple set up a system like that, I would not purchase from them. Which is also my recommendation for people who do not like their recent decision. It may hurt to give up your iPhone, but it would send a great message to Apple if people put their values before their money. After all, Apple is about making money.

Most children have allowances in the iTunes store which are setup by their parents or manage purchases through gift cards. Either way, these accounts don't have a credit card attached to them If a parent is stupid enough to give their kid their credit card to purchase anything they want, then the parent is responsible for anything that the child does.

IN the end, parents are responsible for what their children do, no company or government should be the parent to a child.
I agree, parents are responsible. That's why I don't let me kids wonder around alone in the video store, because in the country I am in, they display soft porn alongside regular movies. My kids are still little and when they are looking for Finding Nemo I don't want them to see Bi-tanic. And I monitor my kids activities when they are on the computer. Some people then say I am repressive. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. (Perhaps this is how Apple feels.) If Apple wants to sell these apps again, they should set up an adult section, as well as a graphic violence section. Let the user decide what is displayed.

I hate being political on this issue, but Apple is getting themselves into these type of discussion by censoring.
No worries. It's the nature of this particular thread. Bottom line, I still don't see this as censoring. Other people do. We all can agree to disagree. If Apple came to me and told me I could not sell these products in my store, then it would be censoring. But what they sell in their own store is their choice. Yes, it is a closed system, but it is not the only system. In the US, I would not go to Nordstrom and demand they sell the same cheap Levis sold at Walmart. Nordstrom has the freedom to chose what they sell. If I don't like it, I spend my money elsewhere. There are a million places to get overtly sexual materials, why is everyone upset over one store deciding to not sell it? Yes, the approval process may be ambiguous, but Shiller's quote did state "in a well-accepted format." Maybe if developers went back and increased the quality of their product, it would get accepted. That is not censoring, it is telling people that they don't want to sell crap in their store. (But they do, don't they! Which is why I think the boasting about all the apps is a crock. How many of these are really useful? It's like the same Windows taunts about all the software available for that platform. Crapware is crapware, regardless of the platform.) But if Apple is trying to clarify its branding, then that is their choice. If their decision results in you taking your business elsewhere, that will affect their bottom-line, at which point they will need to think again.

Thanks for engaging in the discussion.
 
Actually it was describing pornography which would, in turn, have been ruled obscene.

I don't even know what that statement is supposed to mean. The movie in question was not "pornography." It was a French film called "The Lovers." And it was found not to be obscene. Further, whether it was "pornographic" or not makes no difference since the First Amendment issue is whether or not it is obscene - there was no special treatment for pornography. I suppose you may be referring to Justice Stewart's reference to "hard-core pornography" which was his attempt to state what sort of material is "obscene?"

Furthermore, the Supreme Court didn't rely on the "I know it when I see it" test - that was in Justice Stewart's concurrence, not in the majority opinion.

The actual opinion of the Court:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=378&invol=184
 
I'm scratching my head as I watch this app story continue because it's completely illogical. On what basis does Apple distinguish between music, movies and television shows with plenty of sexual content -- which are still available from the iTunes store -- and the applications they've chosen to censor? It smells an awful lot like the selective book burning some of us thought we left behind last century. Apple, please explain.

They probably won't be for long.


The bigoted narrow-minded fools who complained about the bikini apps will set their sights on movies, then music, and then books next.

If Apple caved so easily on Apps, they'll just keep caving until they have no content to sell.

Let the Apple APP burning begin. Pathetic.


What the small developers should do is band together and approach Playboy to publish their apps under their label. Since Playboy has publicly been given a free pass, Apple can't complain.

Also, it seems that Mr. Schiller just admitted to giving some companies preferential treatment. Letting Playboy and Sports Illustrated play by one set of rules, but having different rules for smaller developers has to be against some anti-trust law.
 
I wonder what it's like to have the world look so binary. Offensive is in the view of the user. You're picking a definition and claiming someone else is violating it, not to mention that music and video are largely pre-screened by the studios.

The App Store is unique in that Apple is the sole reviewer.

I wonder what it's like to be so blind, loyal and obedient?

If offensive is in the view of the user, wouldn't it then make most sense to allow the user to decide what actually offends them? If you want to buy the app/song/video, buy it, if you don't, don't. It's so simple, it's ridiculous.
 
I wonder what it's like to be so blind, loyal and obedient?

If offensive is in the view of the user, wouldn't it then make most sense to allow the user to decide what actually offends them? If you want to buy the app/song/video, buy it, if you don't, don't. It's so simple, it's ridiculous.

Some people believe in "The Right to Not be Offended". Coming soon to a constitution near you.
 
What the small developers should do is band together and approach Playboy to publish their apps under their label. Since Playboy has publicly been given a free pass, Apple can't complain.
LOL. Sure Playboy would do this! They are in it just as much for the money as Apple is, and they know that these apps were crap.
Developers everywhere, go back to the drawing board and make an app worthy of my purchase. Apple, please, please! allow a special "Crapware App Store" to be run be someone, anyone, where any app can be sold. This would solve the problem.
 
Some people believe in "The Right to Not be Offended". Coming soon to a constitution near you.

If enough people believe in the "Right to Not be Offended" to get an amendment passed to the Constitution, what is the problem then?

If it is "Coming soon to a constitution near you" it would have to mean that enough people believed in it.

Maybe Apple had 66% of iPhone OS platform owners complain about the issue that sparked this thread, who knows?
 
Some people believe in "The Right to Not be Offended". Coming soon to a constitution near you.
Some people believe in "The Right to Freedom and Choice." Some people don't believe in "Censorship, Corporatism, Hypocrisy, Favoritism, and Control Over Peoples' Private Lives." Coming soon to a constitution near you.
 
If enough people believe in the "Right to Not be Offended" to get an amendment passed to the Constitution, what is the problem then?

You'll see it when we get there, if you can't right now. There's a very good reason there is no such as The Right to Not be Offended (hint, everything is offensive on some level to someone...).
 
You'll see it when we get there, if you can't right now. There's a very good reason there is no such as The Right to Not be Offended (hint, everything is offensive on some level to someone...).

I will not argue that, because even in our current system people find murder, child pornography and so on to be wrong, so if enough people move the bar to include "anything offensive" what choice does an individual have?

All I was saying that in order to make it into the constitution it really has to be wanted by a vast majority. :) I guess I didn't understand your quip, sorry.
 
All I was saying that in order to make it into the constitution it really has to be wanted by a vast majority. :)

Not even close to true. Prohibition was horrendously unpopular and it made it into the constitution because a particularly shrill and active minority stirred up enough political power to make it so.
 
Some people believe in "The Right to Freedom and Choice." Some people don't believe in "Censorship, Corporatism, Hypocrisy, Favoritism, and Control Over Peoples' Private Lives." Coming soon to a constitution near you.

Wow, if you believe this Apple is trying to control your private life than you might be way, WAY too connected to Apple. Let them have their own opinion. Yes, it was shaped by the opinions of their customers. Like all of our opinions aren't shaped by others to some extent? Move on! Develop your own phone, get developers to create apps for it, and express yourself! Don't make Apple do it for you.
 
Not directly, but the process can start at the State's level through the efforts of citizen activism, i.e. Woman's Suffrage.

Your point was that Constitutional amendments were somehow correlated with popularity. While it is true that something very popular can become an amendment, there is little correlation.

The ERA was more popular than prohibition, yet the ERA never made it and prohibition, which was widely hated, was embedded in the constitution.

Other amendments, such as the thirteenth, were not very popular either at the time they became part of the constitution.
 
Wow, if you believe this Apple is trying to control your private life than you might be way, WAY too connected to Apple. Let them have their own opinion. Yes, it was shaped by the opinions of their customers. Like all of our opinions aren't shaped by others to some extent? Move on! Develop your own phone, get developers to create apps for it, and express yourself! Don't make Apple do it for you.
That's right, don't let Apple do the censorship for me. If I am offended by the human body, I should simply not download apps that contain it. Simple. I don't tell Apple to start censoring apps for everyone, including people not offended by the human body.
 
Not even close to true. Prohibition was horrendously unpopular and it made it into the constitution because a particularly shrill and active minority stirred up enough political power to make it so.

Maybe on the Federal side, but enough support had to be at the State level to get the Amendment passed, or are you saying this shrill went to 30 some individual States to whip up the assemblies to meet the minimum number of States to pass an Amendment.
 
That's right, don't let Apple do the censorship for me. If I am offended by the human body, I should simply not download apps that contain it. Simple. I don't tell Apple to start censoring apps for everyone, including people not offended by the human body.

But you are telling Apple that they must sell these apps, correct? Just want to confirm.
 
Not even close to true. Prohibition was horrendously unpopular and it made it into the constitution because a particularly shrill and active minority stirred up enough political power to make it so.

Sorry I didn't address Prohibition. Yes it was unpopular with the bathtub ginners, but the uproar for the appeal was because of the rampant rise of Gangsters bootlegging to a minority.

How else did Hoover get the abusive Federal powers through?
 
Maybe on the Federal side, but enough support had to be at the State level to get the Amendment passed, or are you saying this shrill went to 30 some individual States to whip up the assemblies to meet the minimum number of States to pass an Amendment.

I am saying that if you took a national vote as to prohibition, it would have lost handily. Yes, the equivalent of today's Tea Party'ers managed to whip up enough political fervor in 38 states to get it passed. But if it had been put to a nationwide vote it never would have won.
 
I am saying that if you took a national vote as to prohibition, it would have lost handily. Yes, the equivalent of today's Tea Party'ers managed to whip up enough political fervor in 38 states to get it passed. But if it had been put to a nationwide vote it never would have won.

I wasn't sure if the number was 38, without looking it up I was not sure about the total State count.

Your national poll result is an assertion, I don't remember one being done. Based on the passage, one can only assume a vast majority supported it.

Was it unpopular with an extremely vocal minority who went about killing each other over it, yes.

A huge part of the sentiment to repeal the prohibition was to save lives, if they are going to kill each other over it, kill innocent people, destroy business, then repeal it.

In essence people caved, it was so bad that sweeping Federal Law Enforcement agencies, FBI, and draconian efforts to destroy Gangster-land resulted.
 
I will not argue that, because even in our current system people find murder, child pornography and so on to be wrong, so if enough people move the bar to include "anything offensive" what choice does an individual have?

All I was saying that in order to make it into the constitution it really has to be wanted by a vast majority. :) I guess I didn't understand your quip, sorry.

My quip was about Apple caving in to the "Won't somebody please think of the children crowd". The same crowd who would be very happy to see society as a whole become asepticized in their own vision. No more dangerous stuff, no more sex, no more {insert fun stuff here}.
 
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