Phil Schiller: Apple Will Not Change Decision on 'Hey' Email App, No App Store Rule Updates Imminent

[s66]

This kind of hostility from Apple is what makes for a bad user experience for customers, not the app developers.

Apple’s 30% cash-grab is absurd, and it leads to developers creating unusable apps. I hate that I can’t buy movies in the Vudu app. I hate that I can’t buy Kindle books in the Kindle app. It’s unacceptable, and it’s all Apple’s fault. Their devices would be much more usable if they weren’t so greedy.

It's the other way round: app developers are the greedy ones by giving you a sub standard user experience in order to avoid paying a fair share to the store that they use to get in touch with you.

30% markup by the supply chain and store is little, very little. Yet there are those who feel they deserve 100% and will circumvent so much that they'd rather create unusable or hard to use apps in order bypass paying a fair share to the hand that feeds them.

 

[boss.king]

One could say that about all apps that communicate with a back-end server. Except some create content and some don't. The ones that create content, are they classified as reader apps?

edit: then there is this:

"Apple told me that its actual mistake was approving the app in the first place, when it didn't conform to its guidelines. Apple allows these kinds of client apps -- where you can't sign up, only sign in -- for business services but not consumer products. That's why Basecamp, which companies typically pay for, is allowed on the ‌App Store‌ when Hey, which users pay for, isn't. Anyone who purchased Hey from elsewhere could access it on iOS as usual, the company said, but the app must have a way for users to sign up and pay through Apple's infrastructure. That's how Apple supports and pays for its work on the platform."

Maybe they should put that in the actual written rules then? The App Store review process is notorious for being a gamble with a maze of unwritten rules. You know what helps people understand the process really well? Writing down the rules precisely and clearly.

 

[yurc]

On Mac, this is not problem since dev can distribute app directly and user can install it without Mac App Store. Perhaps this developer of Hey App do similar practice, but due iOS nature not allowing permanent apps side loading, they venture this route.


iOS App Store in nutshell :
If you’re big fish, exceptions apply.
If you middling small fish, sorry.

 

[I7guy]

Maybe they should put that in the actual written rules then? The App Store review process is notorious for being a gamble with a maze of unwritten rules. You know what helps people understand the process really well? Writing down the rules precisely and clearly.

I’m not clear on whether the review process is really a crap shoot as it’s made out to be. The process is forever evolving based on new and unforeseen situations as everything in life.

 

[bsmr]

I am on Apple's side on this one! And I am an iOS Developer too!

What about Fastmail?

 

[Rigby]

Am I missing something?
Or are people having issues with their definition of a "Reader" app? I can probably understand that issue a bit more if that is the case...

The big question in my mind is how other email services such as Fastmail apparently meet that definition (since they are on the app store without offering an in-app subscription) and Hey doesn't. How is a developer to know what Apple considers an "approved service" if they don't apply the rules consistently? I assume Hey invested quite a bit of money into developing the app based on those precedents, and now it's being crushed due to an arbitrary decision by Apple.

 

[boss.king]

I’m not clear on whether the review process is really a crap shoot as it’s made out to be. The process is forever evolving based on new and unforeseen situations as everything in life.

That's not really a good enough answer when you're demanding 30% and holding the keys to people's livelihood. Apple has all the money in the world, they can and should do better than "**** happens, maybe we'll figure it out".

 

[ian87w]

On Mac, this is not problem since dev can distribute app directly and user can install it without Mac App Store. Perhaps this developer of Hey App do similar practice, but due iOS nature not allowing permanent apps side loading, they venture this route.


iOS App Store in nutshell :
If you’re big fish, exceptions apply.
If you middling small fish, sorry.

DHH is not a small fish.
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That's not really a good enough answer when you're demanding 30% and holding the keys to people's livelihood. Apple has all the money in the world, they can and should do better than "**** happens, maybe we'll figure it out".

I don't think however much money Apple has anything to do with this.
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I’m not clear on whether the review process is really a crap shoot as it’s made out to be. The process is forever evolving based on new and unforeseen situations as everything in life.

Maybe we should go back to what Steve Jobs said when Apple was criticized about the approval rates back then. Apple actually approved a tons of apps. The ones being denied are in minority, and usually for a good reason.

This feels like a reverse Streisand effect. Hey slipped through the cracks, but DHH made some noise because of the 30%. It ended up with Apple actually realizing their mistake of approving it in the first place. This may trigger Apple's scrutiny on other apps, where others developers may suffer.

 

[I7guy]

That's not really a good enough answer when you're demanding 30% and holding the keys to people's livelihood. Apple has all the money in the world, they can and should do better than "**** happens, maybe we'll figure it out".

That’s the best scenario to go back and see where the TOS has to be tweaked both sides: fix what’s not working and make it better and loosen up what may be too draconian.

 

[smulji]

This kind of hostility from Apple is what makes for a bad user experience for customers, not the app developers.

Apple’s 30% cash-grab is absurd, and it leads to developers creating unusable apps. I hate that I can’t buy movies in the Vudu app. I hate that I can’t buy Kindle books in the Kindle app. It’s unacceptable, and it’s all Apple’s fault. Their devices would be much more usable if they weren’t so greedy.

Before there was digital distribution of software, consumers had to buy boxed software from retailers. Those retailers charged developers 50% to allow them to distribute their packaged software in their stores. So for Apple to take 30% cut in the first year and 15% thereafter for subscription-based services isn't bad at all especially since Apple spent the time and money to build the infrastructure for it.

 

[Rogifan]

for those that argue Netflix and Amazon got a free pass, and Dropbox being a "Reader" app is ridiculous, I thought Apple has already outlined what constitutes a "Reader" app clearly in their guideline?

Dropbox allows access to cloud storage - ✅
Netflix and Amazon allow access to video and books - ✅
Hey - ❌



Am I missing something?
Or are people having issues with their definition of a "Reader" app? I can probably understand that issue a bit more if that is the case...

Is Hey arguing they should be classified as a reader app?

 

[ian87w]

Before there was digital distribution of software, consumers had to buy boxed software from retailers. Those retailers charged developers 50% to allow them to distribute their packaged software in their stores. So for Apple to take 30% cut in the first year and 15% thereafter for subscription-based services isn't bad at all especially since Apple spent the time and money to build the infrastructure for it.

Seems like developers wanted the good old dyas... 😅

I also remembered when Apple announced the 30% cut and how everybody actually was cheering. I guess you give them an inch, they will demand a mile.

 

[Scottsdale]

You can do that with a Gmail account, too, which you can pay to have.

What you can’t do is pay for your Gmail account through the Gmail app (I just double checked - it has no IAP.)

I think the big thing here is the Gmail app functions as an app instantly. The Hey app doesn’t function without buying the service. I see many ways Hey can get around this. They just want to pick a fight, and they’re doing it on behalf of all developers. I do think as a developer we are all at Apple’s mercy. If you don’t like that, get in a different line of business. That’s part of the deal for developing. Apple outlays all the cash and deals with server bandwidth to payments and free advertising to developers who can develop worthy apps. Basecamp Hey is just getting free publicity here and trying to make Apple look bad. I get both sides, but if this was a legitimately decent reasoning and the app functioned without having to go to the Hey site, I would side with them. But in this case I just think Apple is correct.

 

[Abazigal]

DHH is not a small fish.

His app is not some huge “must have” like Spotify or Netflix though. In the greater scheme of things, his is just one more email app in a sea of email apps and this is probably why he lacks leverage in his discussions with Apple.

 

[conradwt]

Consumption is different from creation. One creates emails and doesn’t consume them as I understand the distinction, according to Apple.

Let the EU do what it wants. Rumor has it about Apple going portless; probably thanks to the EU.

One can actually consume e-mail without creating it. For example, I wake up every morning and read each one of my e-mails. In Netflix, one can easily add and delete things from their queue. Furthermore, the ability to read or create an e-mail is designed and implemented by the developer here and the content is managed by Hey's backend servers.

 

[ian87w]

His app is not some huge “must have” like Spotify or Netflix though. In the greater scheme of things, his is just one more email app in a sea of email apps and this is probably why he lacks leverage in his discussions with Apple.

Err, Basecamp? DHH did exactly what he did because he does not have that high of a risk if Hey is not even in the App store. He's not a developer whose livelihood literally lies on one app.

 

[kxc]

pathetic app

 

[davidjytang]

Developers should remove their apps from the App Store for a month in protest, telling customers to get their applications for Android devices on the Play store OR download for Android directly.

Apple would be more eager to change once you hit them in their pocket.

And not only users, users with verified working credit cards in an ecosystem they trust such that they feel comfortable clicking the “buy” button. People pay large sums of money JUST for email addresses... how much is actual paying customers worth?

According to some developers... zero cost?
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Absolutely correct. I had no idea, but now I know that there are people that pay $99 for email.

Is there a company version of worker union? A worker union that consists of companies.

 

[conradwt]

I’d assume most folks that would pay $99 for email wouldn’t mind switching to a cheap (or, on some plans, free) Android phone to get it. I’d be interested in seeing Hey attempt that, actually.

iPhone could simply get a web app instead of a native app on mobile whereas Android will benefit from a native version of the Hey app.

 

[ian87w]

iPhone could simply get a web app instead of a native app on mobile whereas Android will benefit from a native version of the Hey app.

That's what Steve Jobs would've said, just make a web app, then you can do whatever you want.

Man, Tim Cook is too diplomatic. No fun.

 

[winston1236]

Is Schiller a lawyer? If not why does his opinion matter on an issue that's obviously going to court?

 

[davidjytang]

Guideline 3.1.3 does define reader apps "in English" as: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VOIP, cloud storage, or approved services such as classroom management apps.

Take the time to actually read and learn before spouting off.
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Hi! Euthyphro,

Listing examples is not defining though. Listing examples do not provide the essential characteristic that makes those examples reader app.

As Socrates would probably say,

"Remember that I did not ask you to give me two or three examples of reader app, but to explain the general idea which makes all reader apps reader app. Do you not recollect that there was one idea which made non-reader apps non-reader app and the reader apps reader app? "

"Tell me what is the nature of this reader app idea, and then I shall have a standard by which I may measure apps, whether my apps or those of any one else, and then I shall be able to say that such and such an app is reader app, such another non-reader app."

Surely, you remember Socrates.

 

[spacesword]

It's the other way round: app developers are the greedy ones by giving you a sub standard user experience in order to avoid paying a fair share to the store that they use to get in touch with you.

30% markup by the supply chain and store is little, very little. Yet there are those who feel they deserve 100% and will circumvent so much that they'd rather create unusable or hard to use apps in order bypass paying a fair share to the hand that feeds them.

Sir what flavour does Apples boot have?

 

[LeadingHeat]

But you can create, and share playlists in Spotify. Does Apple (or Phil) clearly define what is and what is not a “reader” app? Otherwise they are just picking and choosing here.

which Apple views as apps that display external content like music, books, and movies

Here you go, I read the article for you.

 

[conradwt]

How are they “tricking” anyone? Apple does not set the app price — the developer does. The developers whining about this want all of the benefits of the App Store distribution platform without paying the cost.

At this time, developers have the ability to set up, host, and collect payments for their own applications today. Hosting is $5 per/month using something like Digital Ocean or Linode and credit is 2.7% plus 5 cents per transaction regardless of the card type using something like Stripe. BTW, many macOS apps do this today but this functionality doesn't exist for a developer on iOS. Next, every app developer must have a valid app developer account that costs $99 per/year to publish both paid and non-paid apps to the App Store. This app developer status must be maintained throughout the lifetime of the application in the App Store. Otherwise, Apple will remove the application from the App Store. Finally, a developer should have the right as well as the choice to distribute and charge for their apps in any way that works for them.
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Can they just charge 130$ in the app?

The max you can charge for an iOS app is $999.99 and several app developers have done it.