Phil Schiller Claims Customers Aren't Asking for Built-In Blu-Ray Anymore

[dmelgar]

I think it's more than presumptuous for you to say what another person can, or cannot, hear since you are not them. My son is a fairly talented musician who says that, to him, vinyl sounds "warmer"; me, I can't hear it, just the pops and hisses but I don't tell him that he can't hear it. And, as you mentioned, he is a huge fan of tubes, for the same reason, the quality of the sound.

So, you are like a blind man telling a sighted person that they cannot see the color red.

Its not a random etherial thing we're measuring. Its quantifiable. You can measure exactly how sound sounds each way. There differences don't exist in a positive way.

Its like someone looking at math equations and describing which one is more warmer. It is what it is.

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Nope - what I hear is not only a bright crickle noise that reminds me of a fireplace (the needle produces this sound no matter what you do) - I also hear a more refined dominance of the mid-frequency region. This combined with the subtle imperfection of analog playback I guess is what makes it feel "warm" while the clean and perfect digital recording sounds "cold". I challenge you to listen to the same (and today digitally recorded) track on the same Amp once on CD and then on Vinyl (not mp3, as it wouldn't stand a chance).

I personally didn't believe this stuff either until I heard the DDD-version of November Rain on CD against the DDA version on Vinyl (Picture Disc with 45 rpm).

You sure can reproduce this kind of sound with digital media using a dedicated Equalizer. Nevertheless go and check the EQ-settings in iTunes. What you see is dumb loudness accustomed stuff taking over - meaning boost the high and boost the low.

Considering tube amps and Monster cables - yeah, if I had the money to burn I'd sure use that with my guitar rather than Line6 digital offers. And my guitar is the only area, where I like the distorted 10-0-10 profile as a good heavy metal sound.

As much as a claim there's no difference, I say this with the understanding that there is huge variation in the ability to actually convert the digital information to sound waves. ie speakers in particular make an enourmous difference as does room acoustics etc. I'm saying given a sufficiently high sample rate and resolution, that digital is more accurate than a vinyl recording.
You could imitate the distortion effects you hear as warmth in software, postprocessing a digital source.
Cant comment on a specific setting in iTunes playback. Thats like saying all vinyl sounds bad because of your particular amplifier. Technically speaking, digital is a more accurate description of music. Its huge appeal is that it can be moved around, copied without ANY loss of information vs. the original copy. Algorithms can be implemented to transform the sound as desired to do any level of equalization.
If there are differences in a DDD vs DDA recording, that could be an issue with the original recording and processing equipment, not with the fundamental technology being used. Vinyl is inherently an inferior medium, as are tubes...

BTW, playing a vinyl record involves quite delicate equalization. Handling analog equalization can't be handled perfectly so there are discrepancies depending on cartridge and amplifier, etc. Similar equalization isn't necessary in digital recordings. Some of the early issues regarding digital vs. analog was that studios were still using equipment that used equalization for records.

 

[Artful Dodger]

I'm noticing the irony of people here talking about ripping Blu-ray discs. The BDA never wanted you to be able to rip BD discs. You're hacking and if you've found a way to get your BD discs ripped you can find a way to get playback on your Mac.

The rest of us that don't give a %^&* can peacefully move on in our lives without some loud rotating POS in our computer.

And then there are those who are asked to create quality Blu-Ray from events that we have filmed and this is overshadowed here a ton.
To be able to create this and I will stress there has not been a decrease in price by not having the drives in certain models so you have your way and I still pay for your lack wish…wow there is a choice that feels good.

As for your comment Google, Bing or whatever because it is way off today as many BD's give digital copies to play on many computers if need be such as when traveling. Wait, did you say travel? Yes I did and it's nice to select some movies that (shutter) iTunes doesn't carry, Netflix doesn't offer, Hulu Plus doesn't have in their catalog and I'm watching what I want after an event resting for the next day.

Loud is subjective, startup maybe, playing a full season of (your choice insert here) is quiet and I've seen some great stuff on a plane from friends that iTunes wasn't available at 34,000 feet to stream, image that

 

[RedRaven571]

Its not a random etherial thing we're measuring. Its quantifiable. You can measure exactly how sound sounds each way. There differences don't exist in a positive way.

Its like someone looking at math equations and describing which one is more warmer. It is what it is.

One can also quantify the exact frequencies at which light is refracted to create a rainbow, observing the beauty of one is something else. If you think digital is better, good for you; i prefer digital music myself because i dont hear the "warmth" in an analog recording. i just dont think you can tell someone else that they are not hearing what they say they are.

 

[SirHaakon]

There are plenty of external BR on the market, are you forbiden to buy something not made by Apple?

It's not that we can't get something else, it's the principal of Apple not offering it because of their own greed with iTunes that sucks. If every Mac for the last 4 years had a Blu-ray player built in, how do you think that would have affected the adoption rate of Blu-ray? Apple is doing their part to kill it on purpose because they make a competitive product. It's as simple as that.

And yes, I can burn content on my Mac with an external BD-R drive, but I can't watch that content back after I've burned it. Sounds logical, doesn't it?

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Things are very simple. It is what it is. If you like it and need it go and buy it.

Yeah, too bad Phil isn't giving us that option...

 

[Fandongo]

If I were to facepalm right now, I would have to undergo plastic surgery after doing it.
Thunderbolt was never meant to be the only port on anything.
Do you expect any computer in any amount of years to have only a Thunderbolt port?
That's not its purpose. It is meant to be a means of expansion, giving the bandwidth of PCI-Express in a more user-friendly manner.
USB is U for Universal. It's designed to be more cheap and adaptable for mainstream applications. 99% of the users won't ever know what they can do with a Thunderbolt port.
Oh, and you can get an adapter if you want to use an USB device on a Thunderbolt port. Try doing the opposite.

Seriously, think twice before saying such an absurd statement and calling someone a fool in the process. Your message was epically uninformed, even for the standards of this message board.

Duh, they marketed it wrong...attacking early adopters and "pros".
USB is dogpoop. Ever try monitoring video via usb? Hope you like 8fps.
I see a need, I see a means, and I see a lot of useless peripherals and ports that should have been replaced by one...Nearly two years ago.
I didn't say you could adapt USB to TB.
But you're right Thunderbolt can adapt to other things, if the iPad had a real Thunderbolt port, you could build a keyboard dock with every possible peripheral attached.
I'm saying every new device could be built around this (mind the effects of mass production on unit price).
Saving space, making everything neat and concise before the entire world becomes a chaotic wireless nightmare.
Main devices--things like blu-ray players/burners--should obviously contain a passthrough port.

Mostly, I was sandwiching a statement with LOTR bread.
Not directly insulting your foolishness...fool.

 

[Swift]

Sorry for the confusion. I was not trying to point out that BR is better than DVD. I was just showing that optical media as a medium is still going strong.

Apple likes telling people what they want. Taking away ALL optical drives (something i'm sure we would all agree Apple would like to do) is saying DVD and BR is crap and iTunes is better.

PEOPLE STILL LIKE/BUY OPTICAL DISCS.

Also BR has the hurdle of convinceing granny "why is BR needed", "DVD looks ok", "Will BR blind me", "Do I need special glasses to watch BR"

Yes, and people can buy all the Blu-ray they want. Apple won't offer it as a default, included drive. They make an add-one DVD/CD burner. If you have a Mac Pro, you can install one there, and there are 3rd party burners available, like Toast.

 

[mattnotis]

I don't have a bluray player in my house at all. Bluray movies are overpriced and inconvenient. I much prefer netflix streaming. The image quality is sharp enough for me.

I was at Target the other day and there were a bunch fo Blu-rays for under $20.

 

[alent1234]

I've seen good blu rays for less than $10

 

[dmelgar]

One can also quantify the exact frequencies at which light is refracted to create a rainbow, observing the beauty of one is something else. If you think digital is better, good for you; i prefer digital music myself because i dont hear the "warmth" in an analog recording. i just dont think you can tell someone else that they are not hearing what they say they are.

Actually, I'm not saying they can't hear it. I'm saying its distortion and the digital medium is more accurate to convey the information if its recorded and played back well.

2+2 = 4 is a fact. Not something to be debated.
The medium in which sound is recorded is recording actual information representing the source sound. Digital is more accurate and reproducible vs. vinyl.

Its like debating if 2+2=4 is still true if written with a pencil vs. typed on a computer. Write a series of numbers with pencil vs. typed on a computer. If you pass the written paper around, its more likely to get smudged and crinkled. You may or may not be able to read what it said at the end. If it looks pretty or stylish is irrelevant. You've lost information.

 

[emulator]

And I guess all of you don't have a decent AVR, let alone a decent speaker system. If you ever heard a Blu-Ray DTS HD Master over a decent home theater (which btw is specced up to 10MBit/s stream for audio) you wouldn't talk this stuff out of your backs.

Do I need a Mac as HTPC? Sure as hell not, because I actually own a lot of Blu-Rays and some of them (those Live Concert Blus) are a real joy to watch over and over again.

This. And don't forget, these are the people who bought that apple boombox and called themselves audiophiles.

 

[DudeDad]

I don't have a bluray player in my house at all. Bluray movies are overpriced and inconvenient. I much prefer netflix streaming. The image quality is sharp enough for me.

I do. Never use it. Between DirecTV and iTunes, why bother? I almost added a BR to my soon-to-be retired Mac Pro (1,1), but asked myself why....they are cheap, but unnecessary...

 

[wonderspark]

http://www.apple.com/osx/recovery/

That's neat, but doesn't that require internet access to download? If you can download that to a system that has an unformatted drive in it, I'll be impressed.

It would be smarter if Apple put everything needed to start from scratch on a tiny chip in the computer, so you'd always have the "original OSX install discs" built-in. No matter if it were the year 2186, you could cleanly install 10.8.2 or whatever on that machine, then update from there.

 

[RedRaven571]

Actually, I'm not saying they can't hear it. I'm saying its distortion and the digital medium is more accurate to convey the information if its recorded and played back well.

2+2 = 4 is a fact. Not something to be debated.
The medium in which sound is recorded is recording actual information representing the source sound. Digital is more accurate and reproducible vs. vinyl.

Its like debating if 2+2=4 is still true if written with a pencil vs. typed on a computer. Write a series of numbers with pencil vs. typed on a computer. If you pass the written paper around, its more likely to get smudged and crinkled. You may or may not be able to read what it said at the end. If it looks pretty or stylish is irrelevant. You've lost information.

You know, I'm sure we could go on and on, with all kinds of fun examples like the concept of patina. It's oxidation, I've quantified it; further more, personally, I don't like it. However, some people prize patina on certain objects, I don't know why. So, it's akin to the degradation of a vinyl album by the abrasion of the needle in the track; every time you play it, it degrades more. Some people still find the sound more agreeable than a digital recording. You're not one, neither am I but, they're out there.

The same kind of people who would rather drive a vintage '67 Mustang than a 2013 Mustang. You could tell them the 2013 is more powerful, more fuel efficient, has traction control, etc. (all absolutely true) but, to them, a classic car 'feels' better.

I'm not sure how all this relates back to the original topic of this thread but, personally, I buy very few Blu-ray Discs, my entertainment system up converts the signal from a DVD and I have a difficult time seeing any real difference on a 50" HD TV. I do, however, think Apple should have made it an option, for a fee, in their products.

 

[InYou]

Apple just wants you to buy EVERYTHING of itunes.. That's the main reason for removing the CD drive. As my main computer system I do need a cd drive and I would hate to pay $100 extra after buying a +$1200 apple computer. Also why are movies on iTunes just as expensive as on CD? They are not spending any money on cd production, manufacturing, transportation, overhead, etc.. So why do they charge just as much? Specially itunes movie rental at $5.. are they kidding me lol! So for that and many reasons we do need a cd drive, don't be fooled.

 

[Xiroteus]

I ripped my Blu-Rays on my 12-Core Mac Pro, used Handbrake (spent ~6 months studying codec's, advanced strings, multiple audio tracks - iDevices default to the first track which must be stereo, the rest DTS/5.1/7.1 Auto-Passthrough and handbrake supports DTS in M4V/MP4 containers for a while now so no need for MKV), and they're fantastic! I setup my Pioneer 50" elite, Samsung 50" LED 3D and compared a Blu-Ray disc to one my my encodes, very little difference. I tossed them after. Although it took a long time (most Blu-Ray Handbrake encodes took 7-8 hours, I let each run overnight), they're about as future proofed as you can get and the advanced strings compressed them to about 8-14 GB's an encode. Copied them to my Synology server with a Mac Mini running Plex, love it.

Apple 1080P's are a joke in comparison. Until the average consumer can get 50Mbps internet, they'll have to be. Until then, while SD DVD's may be fading, Blu-Ray (esp DL 50GB BD's) are essential for me and a lot of others I know.



One study which many in the industry called into question. Believe me, if you know what you're doing, there is a huge difference. Aside from the picture quality, the lack of DTS and true Blu-Ray sound is a big issue. My Handbrake encodes support DTS and about every audio codec.

I know makemkv was a useful program as well, of course someone ripping full size films would require a lot of space. The idea is cool and I know a few people that like having their collection digital, just on their terms and how they want it.

Froot Loops

What you are doing is in fact illegal. Even if you purchased the movie with good ole hard earned cash you are breaking the law every time you rip a movie. The DMCA states, in a nutshell, that breaking any copy protection is unlawful regardless.

I think a lot of people just do not care, they will not torrent or copy and sell yet they will turn their own collection into digital files if they so please.

 

[imageWIS]

I want to mention in passing that the quality of a full Blu-ray (NOT a rip) is better than any streaming / download service. And by quality I am speaking of both video and audio.

 

[mr666]

@Swagi:
"a decent home theater" has nothing to do with your computer. You buy a BluRay player for your home theater. The computer is about hard drive and Internet. We download or watch NetFlix or iTunes on the computer. These are not competition for the home theater. They are quick and convenient, like iPhone viewing of movies. Do you want a BluRay player in your phone? 99% of folks are happy to watch AVI or MP4 files which are junk compared with BluRay, but they just want to watch a movie one time for fun, not serious videophile-ishness. They don't even have a home theater. Their speakers are the size of a two-slice toaster, not an armoire.

 

[arkmannj]

Was never asked for it, saturation is still too low for many people to use it.


People still buy more DVD's then Blu Ray


Keep hanging on to physical media, its a dead medium, the only holdout is broadband speeds and greedy cable operators

I understand physical media may not fit everyone's needs, but it still has it's place, and it's pretty limited to think that the uses are just for media consumption. For many (small) businesses making backups to Blu-Ray are very useful. That "hold out" of broadband speed is a pretty big gap, until it can truly satisfy, then there is a very good case for Blu-Ray. Plus, not everyone one wants all of their stuff in "the cloud" this includes businesses and individuals.

I can buy that physical media does not suit everyone's needs, but neither does an internet/cloud solution.

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Totally agree. I think if Apple announced a machine with the built-in Blu-ray people would be going nuts and beyond stoked. I have to admit and I own just about every one of their products I think that's total BS Statement From Phil, he obviously drinks Kool-Aid. Yes life goes on but I think a powerhouse machine should have everything. Who can honestly say an iMac lighter in weight is a difference in their lives when it sits on desk and it's meant to be a desktop machine?! A couple inches by adding Blu-ray Would make absolutely zero difference
to anyone. This whole 'everything has to be lighter and thinner" is going to bite them in the ass in a few years I'm afraid.

Yup,
If Apple doesn't want to include the drive then find...Sigh...But It would be nice if there could at least be an option for 3rd party drives to work for more than just backup/archive purposes.

 

[maclancer]

Funny how Apple think that every customer have Verizon FIOS to purchase and download HD movies? I only have basic broadband and I rather use my Bluray to watch my movies.

 

[verniesgarden]

I can sort of see getting rid of optical drives in notebooks, but for desktop machines it just seems silly. Users lose a great backup option, and they can't simply pop in a DVD or CD anymore, when the part probably only costs Apple less than $5.

Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that optical drives are one of the parts most likely to fail, and they are trying to reduce warranty repairs, but it's still annoying.

USB drives kind of kill any need for disc backups for me personally, I can get a 32gig for less than a blank bluray disc anyway

 

[Xiroteus]

USB drives kind of kill any need for disc backups for me personally, I can get a 32gig for less than a blank bluray disc anyway

Even though I am am very strong for thinking Apple should have blu-ray I have not backed up data on a disc in years, I understand people that want or need to, very useful took for those who need it, I always found flash or hard drive better in my case. If I wanted to give out a couple GBs of data I would likely burn it to disc because of cost.

 

[mr666]

@ArtfulDodger:
Apple aren't starting a trend here. They are following one. It is the public who are starting-- no, quickly rushing ahead with a trend. They DO NOT use optical drives except when forced to (a software title is only available on DVD or Windows XP is only available on CD). Most people haven't bought any DVD movies in the past year, while they watch dozens if not hundreds of movies. I remember the PC geeks chiding Apple for dropping floppy diskette drives back in 2000. I once owned a record shop, and when I introduced DVDs to my customers they could not believe this would ever take the place of vinyl discs. I said vinyl would be all but history in ten years. How wrong I was. It took two years. Optical drives will go the same way, but like Windows XP, the optical drive will be cherished by PC geeks much longer than it should be.

 

[435713]

I think Jobs said something around 09 about the BDA being like the mafia? Makes me wonder if there wasn't negotiating going on to cause that statement. Speaking of Jobs I will say I miss him at keynotes. Cook and Schiller stink just like the Sony and MS guys, just so dull. Least SJ had some swag. Apple should pay Sam Jackson for keynotes IMO.

Or use Tom Hardy as Bane or something. Normal corporate types are so boring.

Another thought I had earlier was why can't a developer just make some playback software for OSX? Windows has no native support and I believe powerDVD is the main player straight from the disk. A couple others. Seems weird no one on the OSX side couldn't just make some software.

 

[Maverick1337]

I'm still confused as to why Apple (Schiller) thinks blu-ray is a niche product. It's the highest quality video format out at the moment and no one stream Blu-Ray quality over the web because that would be so much data. Until there is a better quality or more efficient, or heck, a way to stream Blu-Ray quality, Blu-Ray discs will always be there.

 

[Xiroteus]

@ArtfulDodger:
Apple aren't starting a trend here. They are following one. It is the public who are starting-- no, quickly rushing ahead with a trend. They DO NOT use optical drives except when forced to (a software title is only available on DVD or Windows XP is only available on CD). Most people haven't bought any DVD movies in the past year, while they watch dozens if not hundreds of movies. I remember the PC geeks chiding Apple for dropping floppy diskette drives back in 2000. I once owned a record shop, and when I introduced DVDs to my customers they could not believe this would ever take the place of vinyl discs. I said vinyl would be all but history in ten years. How wrong I was. It took two years. Optical drives will go the same way, but like Windows XP, the optical drive will be cherished by PC geeks much longer than it should be.

Is there a thing as longer then they should be? It does not void out what people already own, some still love vinyl even though that market is very small and limited. Sometimes there no real why around using something even if you dislike it. (Floppies) I had to use those things years longer then I wanted to. I have family that still uses CRT televisions and just watches whatever, I doubt they care where the content comes from if cheap enough. However one loves CDS, still using a portable CD player. oO

I'm still confused as to why Apple (Schiller) thinks blu-ray is a niche product. It's the highest quality video format out at the moment and no one stream Blu-Ray quality over the web because that would be so much data. Until there is a better quality or more efficient, or heck, a way to stream Blu-Ray quality, Blu-Ray discs will always be there.

Niche to me would be vinyl, not something that is carried in thousands of stores and sells millions.