Pirating Sucks

[nate]

"CRIA's own research now concludes that P2P downloading constitutes less than one-third of the music on downloaders' computers, that P2P users frequently try music on P2P services before they buy, that the largest P2P downloader demographic is also the largest music buying demographic, and that reduced purchasing has little to do with the availability of music on P2P services. I've argued many of these same things, but now you don't have to take my word for it; you can take it from the record labels themselves."

Source:

http://michaelgeist.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1168&Itemid=85

 

[Whotheheck]

I have downloaded probably like 3000 songs or so. But I don't listen to them very much. I just sample them to see if the album is actually good enough to buy. And yes, I have albums. I probably have 1000-1200 CDs/LPs. A lot of those albums I probably would have never bought if I hadn't tried them out by downloading them first. A good example is when a friend of mine recommended that I listen to a certain cardigans album. I was like "The Cardigans? Those Lovefool people?" Well, I downloaded it, loved it, bought the American CD with bonus tracks, the SACD, and even the vinyl version. I also ended up buying like 4 of their other albums. Those are all albums I would have never bought if I hadn't dowloaded the one in the first place.

I think that everyone that I know that download a lot of music also own a lot of albums. The only ones that don't are the 12 year olds who can't afford to buy albums anyway.

 

[WinterMute]

Chris is right. Downloading files is not technically stealing. By the definition given earlier, it lays reason to TANGIBLE, physical property.

How much money do people REALLY think that Artists get from Actual CD's, or downloads from online services? Jack compared to what the record companies make after their recording studio costs, and other expenses such as packaging, marketing, and distribution.

The ARTIST should be making the money. Which Is why I support the guys you never hear on the radio. PWEI? KMFDM? The Shins? These guys make more money than your MTV branded crap-tastical artists. OR those who simply care about the money. There's more to music than money, and whoever doesn't get that should not be discussing the piracy issue.

There is a significant publishing component to the sales of songs that is handed to the songwriters, which is missing if the song is downloaded, but lets take a look at exactly who suffers here.

The artist obviously, a downloaded song generates no income, every song d/l means less income for the artist from sales revenue.

The producer losses out as he will have a %age of the money generated.

The management, same as producer.

The record company obviously.

Of all these people I feel absolutely no sorrow for the record companies, they have been habitually screwing the musicians and the public for years, take a look at Steve Albini's excellent The problem with music essay.

To state that d/l music is not theft because it's copyright violation is a sad and shabby smokescreen. The act of pirating music takes money out of the pockets of those directly responsible for making it and who have a right (a lawful right) to prosper from its dissemination. You might as well mug them.

Like I said before, nothing is now going to stop this activity, because the general populace has realised they can get something for nothing, something that has real value attached to it, and they will continue to do it because they believe the world owes them something.

Steal music, but understand that you are doing wrong and are harming those who make the music you enjoy and that you are breaking the law, just stop whining about your personal justifications. You have no justification, you are a thief.

 

[Music_Producer]

Guys before I comment I would like to make it clear, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE DOWNLOADING OF MUSIC. I do however think that a new album shouldnt not cost 20 friggin bucks!

Indeed, thats what *YOU* think. Do you know how much it costs to produce an entire album? How about this, I'll give you a song..lyrics and all, you compose it, produce it in a studio with musicians, engineers, etc.. and master it and give me the final product.

And then I want to see how much you would want to charge for that 1 single. Ok?

The point is, people nowadays complain about product pricing.. regarding everything. How low can you go? If you don't like an album, don't buy it for 20 bucks. Buy the single that you like.. or, buy a compilation which has your favourite songs featured in it. When I was a teenager, geez.. I rushed out to buy every album that I liked.. I never once argued or thought to myself "Why is this album so expensive?" If I liked the artist, I bought the album, simple.

All this " I shouldn't have to pay 20 bucks for an album" is simply because of the fact that you can download it for free. If I can download it for free, why the bloody hell should I fork out money for it?

As WinterMute rightly put it.. music is intellectual property, and as I mentioned before .. quoting my personal experience.. a lot of musicians are turned off from composing or making music, simply because they know its going to be downloaded illegaly.

Unfortunately, most people look at 50 cent, Mariah, Eminem, etc.. and the glamorous lives they lead.. and think "Oh wait.. these suckers have enough money already.. man.. why should i make them more rich? I'll download!" You forget about the smaller musicians.. the engineers.. the studio staff.. the marketing guys.. thousands of people involved in the process who have so much to lose.

The next time you're downloading a song (not you personally, I mean everyone) remember that you're stealing something that cost a lot of money, talent, hard work and time to make.. or rather, create.

 

[Music_Producer]

All of you talk about record companies screwing the musician.. is that an excuse to steal music? I mean, aren't you screwing the musician more by downloading his/her music for free?

Sure, record companies take advantage of musicians.. but geez.. they do market the heck out of them.. they give them that push that they need.. the radio airplay, the posters, the ads, etc. Take any amateur but talented musician.. as soon as he's finished paying $5,000 for his powerbook.. a decent hardware interface, audio software, instruments..etc.. you really think he's going to come up with money to market, manufacture cds, distribute. etc? No!

I'm not in favor of any record companies or whatsoever, but realize that they're doing their job of promoting the musician. People who download though, aren't doing crap. So when I hear them talk about injustice done to the musicians by record companies.. I'm just like 'whatever'.

In the near future, I'm pretty sure this argument will extend to movie production houses as well. "Hey, Universal is taking advantage of Speilberg and is screwing him.. man, forget buying that DVD for $19.. I'll just download a ripped version of it for free"

Same thing, right?

 

[janey]

In the near future, I'm pretty sure this argument will extend to movie production houses as well. "Hey, Universal is taking advantage of Speilberg and is screwing him.. man, forget buying that DVD for $19.. I'll just download a ripped version of it for free"

It already has. The MPAA just isn't doing anything about it, like the way the RIAA screwed up by suing their own customers...not even like the 20-something young adults they should most likely have targeted, but the single moms and the grandparents and the 7 year old kids that made the front pages of major newspapers nationwide. Way to go. That sure as hell will deter people from stealing

$20 times, let's just say, a new album every 2 weeks is approximately $520, and let's also assume, usually correctly, that you don't care for about half of the songs on the albums you bought. That would have been a potential savings of $260/year...that's not insignificant. Services like iTunes et al are helping consumers do the right thing by making it appealing to spend $.99 on a song instead of $10 for the entire album, where it's probable that you only want one or two songs.

But hey, artists get screwed over when they sell songs online, 20% packaging fees and 15% breakage fees taken away from any royalties on what? mp3 files sent from computer to computer? Pray tell HOW do mp3 files SHATTER?! What the hell do you need to package that you have to take away as much as 20% from the royalties earned by the artist?

I'm not justifying my actions based on the equally despicable actions by the record labels and RIAA. However, there are credible findings showing that sales of albums often times go up because the consumer was influenced by whatever he/she heard from downloaded files. In fact, more evidence points towards the bizarre phenomenon that I myself is an example of (purchasing the album/song after downloading), than does for the RIAA's case of it acting as though it's bleeding money to death because so many people are downloading illegally and not buying. It has been, god knows, at least a year since industry experts and analysts predicted that legal downloads..not physical sales, mind you, but legal downloads a la iTunes, Napster, etc. were going to surpass illegal downloads, and despite the fact that more people are buying music, you STILL see the RIAA whinging about everything.

In all honesty, I fail to see how you can be so fanatical about illegal downloading and not have a similar attitude to the ridiculous attitude of the record labels on this matter at the same time.

 

[Music_Producer]

Rest assured, if that's your attitude towards music, you will never catch me downloading your soulless, corporate compositions.

I would kill to write a song that was downloaded over a half a million times! I would pay to produce the album myself if I thought that was likely.

BTW, please share with me the economic analysis where you determined that you lost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Unless you are L.A. Reid I guarantee that your logic is flawed. Hopefully this will also put your mind at ease.

Soulless.. corporate compositions? Oh, if I could meet you in person..

Yes, that is my attitude towards music now.. it sure wasn't before. But since you don't know me, or my music.. but you feel strongly enough to categorize it rightaway.. I'll let you know what happened

The song was composed in 1998 (no lyrics, its an instrumental track) in my bedroom, on a 4 track recorder. Nothing great, the track wasn't even mastered. I used to take a cd to clubs and play it, to judge audience response.

People started asking for the song eventually, and I guess at some club, someone recorded the song while it was being played (with one of those portable dat recorders.. when i heard the copy of the song.. i could hear the people in the background.. screaming, etc) That was it, within the next few weeks.. the track was on kazaa, and on every 'mp3' website.

I would walk on the streets and you could literally hear cars driving by.. playing this track. How did they get it? I wonder. I heard my track at the gym one day.. and I asked who's CD it was. The guy comes up and tells me "I downloaded this track on kazaa, you haven't heard this track? I can put it on a cd for you if you want" Its so bloody easy.. one idiot downloads a track, and burns copies of it for his friends.. and so on.

While all this was happening, I had finalized a deal with BMG to release an album.. and of course, that track was the number one reason to produce that album. It was supposed to be heavily promoted ..with a music video, etc. Everything was in place, I was supposed to get an advance of $125,000 with royalties following the release of the album. In fact, they gave me a check for $25,000 before the advance..

Well, so for your 'economic analysis'.. the deal was dropped when they got to know that everyone already had the track, and it was out in the open. No album, no advance, no royalties.. nothing. Nada. The logic was simple, since everyone could already access the track online, why go through the hassle of releasing it, marketing it?

And this, was one of my first music productions.. in my bedroom, with just one synthesizer and a 4 track recorder. You can imagine what I went through after everything just crashed. Everytime someone came up to me and said "Hey dude! I love that song you made man, its insane.. why the hell didn't you release it??" I felt like whacking that person.

So there, oh btw.. I have 3 more songs.. which are absolute killer.. but I'm not going to produce them, until I have a confirmed deal. And my computer which is dedicated solely for music (not this one I am on) is not connected to the internet at all.

So whatever, maybe you'd want to listen to one of my corporate composition.. its a 15 second loop (for website designers - yes, they have to *purchase* it to use it on their sites)

Type in "Vishal J" in google.. and you'll get this link:

http://www.bbm.net/vishal.htm

Click on 'Check out Vishal's music'

As of now, thats the only loop I have online.

 

[WinterMute]

In all honesty, I fail to see how you can be so fanatical about illegal downloading and not have a similar attitude to the ridiculous attitude of the record labels on this matter at the same time.

Couldn't agree more Janey, the Record companies are guilty of exploitation and have been for years, but it's a different argument, both MP and myself are on the end of a dual attack now, used to be we only had to deal with the Companies screwing us, now its the general public as well, it's the artists and producers who lose out here.

I'm pretty sure you'll find no love or support for the record companies from most artists, even the big ones.

I'm not fanatical, I'm certainly not going to go to war over it, but I am sure that the illegal d/ling of music is stone wrong and should be resisted at all opportunities.

 

[Music_Producer]

In all honesty, I fail to see how you can be so fanatical about illegal downloading and not have a similar attitude to the ridiculous attitude of the record labels on this matter at the same time.

Like I said janey.. I'm not a fan of record labels at all, but obviously I'm going to hate them much less than the illegal downloaders. When I hear a great song on the radio, its because of the record company that I've heard that music.. its because of the record company that I can see the music video on tv, etc. You see millions of struggling musicians trying to make it, and they generally don't.. because they simply cannot get the exposure that record labels can give them.

Once again, I don't like record companies.. but some revenue is better than no revenue at all. And yes, I love itunes I always go "Thank God for itunes! Atleast people can spend less money and buy music legally now"

PS - A Record label is the same as a pimp, a real estate agent, google adwords (yes! they suck because they charge 50 cents a click.. 50 cents a click!! but hey, thats the only way i get results)

I never hear people complain that agents screw sellers with their 6% commission or whatever. Its the same thing everywhere, you can hate record labels as much as you want.. but musicians need them. They provide service, and they demand money for it.

And remember, as a record label.. you're spending a lot of money on an artist solely based upon your expectations of that artists. You never know if people might hate that artist.. so its a gamble, and maybe thats why they get greedy and just want more revenues.

You won't understand it unless you're a musician. If I ,personally, know that I have a great song.. I *HAVE* to go to a record label to get it out in the market. I don't have a choice. I'm not going to spend money on getting that song recorded with awesome session musicians.. get it mixed in a fantastic studio.. have the cds pressed.. etc.. I just can't spend that kind of money!

 

[janey]

Couldn't agree more Janey...

I understand the position you guys may be in (living in los angeles, a lot of friends and their families are involved with similar stuff), but what I don't understand is MP's totally almost irrational hatred towards piracy. I mean, there's a couple links posted here with supporting evidence for the fact that many illegal downloads do end up in sales anyway...and things like that...no need to go all out hating on what seems to be the mass majority of people (let's be honest...there's a lot more people who have stolen music than anything otherwise..)

'Cause we're not all soulless dirty thieves here. A lot of us do buy music. No need to write us off as bad bad bad people (in fact, that attitude seems to be hurting the RIAA more than anything right now).


Edit: okay, maybe not *blushes* Ignore this post, heheh.

edit 2: if you ask me, getting a bit too greedy, seemingly cashing in bigtime on the likes of the big mainstream and often boring/disgusting artists that everyone likes just because they know someone else who likes it and still screwing everyone over and screaming about how people are bad and blah blah blah...

 

[Music_Producer]

'Cause we're not all soulless dirty thieves here. A lot of us do buy music. No need to write us off as bad bad bad people (in fact, that attitude seems to be hurting the RIAA more than anything right now).


Edit: okay, maybe not *blushes* Ignore this post, heheh.

edit 2: if you ask me, getting a bit too greedy, cashing in bigtime on the likes of the big mainstream and often boring/disgusting artists that everyone likes just because they know someone else who likes it...

Lol.. maybe I should rephrase.. I hate the people who just download music and don't buy anything. I know a few people who have ipods.. and their entire 20 gb library is downloaded.. for free.. and that pisses me off. Like someone else posted.. they download music, if they like it.. they'll go out and buy the album, or the single or whatever. Thats cool. If you don't like a song.. you're not going to listen to it much anyway, so its no big deal.

Oh, and I hate the folks who rent dvds and rip 'em too. Yes, I have a lot of hatred towards people who steal.. sorry if you hate me!

Btw, absolutely the same analogy in that people are getting pissed off about outsourcing. You don't care about all these issues if it doesn't affect you.

I think downloading is terrible because I have been affected by it.. my neighbour thinks its perfectly allright, and will even come up with a hundred excuses.. lol.. and the "Its because i dont support the record labels" is always on the top.

I don't think outsourcing is that big of a deal, although it is to people who have lost their jobs.. but to me it doesn't seem like it. Obviously because it doesn't affect me. Always listen to both sides of the story.

 

[janey]

I don't think outsourcing is that big of a deal, although it is to people who have lost their jobs.. but to me it doesn't seem like it. Obviously because it doesn't affect me. Always listen to both sides of the story.

However, outsourcing is completely legal no matter how you look at it. (well, to be picky, the act of outsourcing is legal, but in some cases it's how it's implemented? (for lack of a better word) that's a bit shady or illegal, like sweatshops and child labor) I don't like it, it affects me a bit, but it's obvious why companies are doing it, and I don't blame them. But their situation is vividly clear. Same goes to the labels, except there's that unfortunate bit about them being essentially a monopoly..

Music downloading be wrong and illegal, but it's not possible to stop people from illegally downloading music anymore. The least the labels could do is work with everyone to compromise a bit and alleviate the situation a bit, instead of doing the opposite.

 

[WinterMute]

Music downloading be wrong and illegal, but it's not possible to stop people from illegally downloading music anymore. The least the labels could do is work with everyone to compromise a bit and alleviate the situation a bit, instead of doing the opposite.

Indeed they should, the labels are arrogant and imperialistic, and they didn't realise that the writing was firmly on the wall.

They need to work towards an easier, cheaper distribution method that goes with the d'l culture rather than trying to simply ignore or stop it.

It's ironic that Apple are at least partly to blame for this with the success of the iPod as a cultural force...

 

[howesey]

I'm busy writing a paper for my degree on the music industry, and how downloading has affected the market.

The record industry is struggling from what I have so far found. I have seen a direct link to decline in mechanical sales such as CD's to downloading. I have also found a link that the people that download the most, also buy the most mechanical products. Some record companies are finding it hard, I have don a case study on EMI, and it's shocking. I haven't got the exact figures on me now but they have gone from ~60,000 employees to just ~13,000.

The music industry is doing really well at the moment. Revenue is being made elsewhere from film, advertising and live sound to name a few areas.

As for illegal download. I hope organisations such as the IFPI get heard. It's not just filesharing that a problem, bootleg and companies such as Allof***.com are also causing problems.

Nice link in my sig BTW.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

Also, to solidify the fact that downloading music is copyright infringement (not theft), consider this ...

Violating copyright is a civil offense in the US, whereas outright theft is a criminal offense. If downloading music were legally categorized as theft, people would've been arrested rather than sued for however many songs they downloaded.

As it stands, however, they were each handed lawsuits and not a single person was arrested. This makes it quite clear that downloading music is a civil matter and is dealt with through lawsuits. Lawsuits don't handle criminal offenses, as such offenses are answered with an arrest and formal charges.

 

[mox358]

I have to admit to a little bit of downloading... but I don't feel guilty about it because I almost always buy the albums. I'm not going to download music off of p2p just to download it. I only download songs that I think I will like or ones I heard part of but not the whole thing. Almost like an evaluation. If I like it I'll get it from iTMS or Sam Goody. If I don't like it then it goes straight to the trash can. End of story. P2P is the best trial system in the world, as long as you don't just download for the sake of downloading.

Plus.. even with iPods and CD burners there is still something special about having the disc, the packaging, the printed lyrics. You know what I mean? I have to admit I would much rather own an album (store bought) than just merely store a bunch of 1's and 0's on my Mac.

Is it stealing or copyright infringement? That's a moral POV. There's no right answer and arguing over it likely isn't going to change anybody's opinion. I think P2P *could* be a great thing for artists if consumers used it more responsibly. There are just some consumers (of all ages as well... not just "under 20" ) that think of the internet as a free record store.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

Is it stealing or copyright infringement? That's a moral POV.

Haha ... No, it's not. Not in the US, anyway.

 

[musiclover137]

In fact, almost all of the money goes to Apple, and then whatever is left from that (less than 50 cents a song I'm sure) is divided amongst the label and the artist...

This is why my brother's band won't be on iTunes -- and why none of Victory Records' artists are on iTunes. It really sucks..

yeah, like someone else said, i'm pretty sure it's the opposite.

 

[GFLPraxis]

I had this guy I wanted to slap a few weeks back. He started talking about all these games and expensive programs he had and I mentioned I hadn't bought such and such app because I was too much of a cheapskate and am low on money right now.

He response with a shocked gasp, "You actually buy software?" then laughed when I told him about supporting the industry. He seemed so shocked that anyone knowledgeable about computers would actually purchase software and when he was leaving told me to go to some P2P site. Argh.


Anyway, for the argument currently going on; piracy is copyright infringement, not stealing (because you're not taking money from a company, you're just not giving compensating them for the investment they made to give you the product- it still hurts), IMHO, but it's almost as bad. Both hurt the company giving you the product.

While I refuse to pirate altogether, I can forgive people who download a single song or two and later perhaps buy the CD, or even people who only download that one song and nothing else. The one who buys the CD is still supporting the company, and the other one was sampling (like taping something on the radio).

People however who download entire CD's illegally on a regular basis or fill their 20 GB iPod with music that way are just plain ungrateful theives, however, IMHO. No, they're not stealing, but they are still causing the company a loss, because the company made an investment to put it on the market.

People who upload or copy music are just as bad.

 

[musiclover137]

It's ironic that Apple are at least partly to blame for this with the success of the iPod as a cultural force...

Very True. I remember when mp3 players first came out, the only way to get mp3's was from napster. Ripping was not as easy then. If you look at it that way, all players unsponsered by a music downloading service (a legal one), are just aiding the piracy.

 

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] all players unsponsered by a music downloading service (a legal one), are just aiding the piracy.

LMAO ... You're kidding, right?

 

[EricNau]

Also, to solidify the fact that downloading music is copyright infringement (not theft), consider this ...

Violating copyright is a civil offense in the US, whereas outright theft is a criminal offense. If downloading music were legally categorized as theft, people would've been arrested rather than sued for however many songs they downloaded.

As it stands, however, they were each handed lawsuits and not a single person was arrested. This makes it quite clear that downloading music is a civil matter and is dealt with through lawsuits. Lawsuits don't handle criminal offenses, as such offenses are answered with an arrest and formal charges.

If you were a music label what would you do: press criminal charges against a individual who pirated your music (and get nothing) or squeeze several thousand dollars out of them?

Ya, I'd pick the second one too.
__________

I really don't see how it is not steading.

Oxford Dictionary defines stealing as:
1 [ trans. ] take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it

By downloading a song you are taking their property without legal right.

 

[quigleybc]

I'll let you know what happened

The song was composed in 1998

Thank you Music Producer for writing what I consider to be the first true post that I've read on here about why music piracy is harmful. All the stats, and analogies and flaming from other posts, and threads didn't reach me like your post.....your post is to the point, has merit and struck home for me.

Thanks again. Great post.

 

[Music_Producer]

Thank you Music Producer for writing what I consider to be the first true post that I've read on here about why music piracy is harmful. All the stats, and analogies and flaming from other posts, and threads didn't reach me like your post.....your post is to the point, has merit and struck home for me.

Thanks again. Great post.

You're welcome quigley.. what I posted was something really personal, and how downloading affected me.. and effectively ruined chances of a great album being released. Well, hopefully, if I am successful in releasing the next one.. you're invited to the party

 

[quigleybc]

You're welcome quigley.. what I posted was something really personal, and how downloading affected me.. and effectively ruined chances of a great album being released. Well, hopefully, if I am successful in releasing the next one.. you're invited to the party

Thanks, posts like yours are what people need to see. Someone that actually was affected by piracy. Forget about the ***** RIAA and the big business, guys like you and the work you put in is why Music Piracy sucks.

Hope you get another contract, do you have a site to hear a clip/sample of your tunes?