Plane Crashes into Hudson River

[jzuena]

Spoken like a true CFI? No, the other right rudder! (Shouted by CFI in unusual attitude training as an incipient spin develops.)

Even better when they see the look in your eyes that the incipient spin causes and say "you've never done spins? Lets try a few". I have that instructor to blame for seeking out an introductory aerobatics flight in a T-6 with Warbird Adventures and then moving on to helicopters "because autorotations are fun".

Speaking of CFIs, I need to get with one soon. I've been inactive for quite a long stretch.

It could be worse. I work at the very airport where the flying club I am in is based and I haven't been able to fly for some time, although their hourly rates have been coming down as the fuel prices have. Maybe if it ever stops snowing I can get back out. Maybe I can finally try out one of their newer planes that are younger than I am or do some autorotations in their new R-44.

 

[dmr727]

Oh, no, no, no, no. Yes.

You know how common it is for prospective ATPs to work their way up through being a CFI. Most of the instructors at my flight school were doing that.

Yeah, I know how you feel. I really enjoyed my time instructing, and would love to do it some more. It's just unfortunately rare for an instructor to find a niche where he/she can make a good living doing it.

Speaking of CFIs, I need to get with one soon. I've been inactive for quite a long stretch.

Yes you do! And the weather has been great - you need to be flying! If you need a BFR - lemme know. You're in the area, right?

 

[IJ Reilly]

Yeah, I know how you feel. I really enjoyed my time instructing, and would love to do it some more. It's just unfortunately rare for an instructor to find a niche where he/she can make a good living doing it.

It's not much of a living, as nearly as I can tell. Most CFIs seem to do it either because they're time building for an ATP or because they just love to fly.

Yes you do! And the weather has been great - you need to be flying! If you need a BFR - lemme know. You're in the area, right?

See your PMs...

 

[bradl]

ATC audio clip is available, courtesy of LiveATC.

http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/us-airways-1549-audio/msg31936/#msg31936

Note: you must register with the forums there to listen to the clip.

BL.

 

[Abstract]

Like I said, I may have been mistaken. His son may have been the co pilot but I'm pretty sure I rememeber him saying his son's the pilot.

He's a 72 years old driving instructor, who has a 57 year old son? I guess he was 14 when he conceived him.


Right. Find out what his name is, and I'll tell you if he's the pilot's father.

Since I don't think you'll answer me, I'll tell you what your 72 year old driving instructor's name is. If he really is the father of the pilot, then your driving instructor's name should be Chesley, same as the pilot's name. The pilot, his father, and his grandfather all share the name, Chesley, since the pilot's full name is Chesley B Sullenberger III.

I already knew the answer. I just don't believe what you say and wanted to test you this time.

 

[Kamera RAWr]

Since I don't think you'll answer me, I'll tell you what your 72 year old driving instructor's name is. If he really is the father of the pilot, then your driving instructor's name should be Chesley, same as the pilot's name. The pilot, his father, and his grandfather all share the name, Chesley, since the pilot's full name is Chesley B Sullenberger III.

I already knew the answer. I just don't believe what you say and wanted to test you this time.

You sure took the long way 'round to call BS

 

[IJ Reilly]

Plane lost both engines at same time

The flight recorders confirm the pilot's statements about his emergency landing in the Hudson River.

New York -- A jetliner that landed in the Hudson River lost power simultaneously in both engines after reaching an altitude of 3,200 feet, the plane's "black box" recorders revealed Sunday.

The details that emerged confirmed the harrowing circumstances under which the pilot of the US Airways flight carrying 155 people maneuvered the plane over New York City and safely into the water after striking a flock of birds Thursday afternoon.

"The captain makes a radio call to [air traffic control] calling mayday and reports that they hit birds, lost both engines and were returning to LaGuardia" airport, said Kitty Higgins of the National Transportation Safety Board, releasing cockpit transmissions captured on flight data and voice recorders.

...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-plane19-2009jan19,0,2841164.story

So, we can apparently forget any possibility that the crew accidently shut down a good engine.

 

[dmr727]

So in case the geeks here are curious, my wife got home last night and I proceeded to steal and rummage through her Airbus abnormal checklist:

There is a checklist for dual engine failure (ENG DUAL FAILURE).

It says that the 320 will glide up to 2.2 nautical miles per 1000 feet of altitude, assuming a clean condition doing 280knots indicated. Also, there's a green dot that displays on the speed tape of the Captain's PFD (Primary Flight Display) that indicates maximum L/D, or best glide.

This checklist assumes the airplane is at altitude when the engines flame out, which of course wasn't the case. All in all, including the section where it goes through the ditching items, the checklist is three pages in length - far too long for the amount of time they had. According to the airline pilot rumor mill (read: speculation) the Captain called for this checklist, and they didn't make it all the way through. That's the reason why they didn't push the Ditching pushbutton - they just didn't get to that item.

There is also a separate ditching checklist (Ditching), which is far, far shorter. If there's also a dual engine failure, it refers you to the checklist above, once the ditching items are complete.

In other words, the writers of the checklists didn't anticipate a dual engine failure so close to the ground. It's not that they weren't thorough - they even have an area where it gives pitch attitudes for best glide if the engines failed due to volcanic ash (thinking the ash might gum up the pitot tubes - knocking out the airspeed indicators).

Anyway, I thought this was interesting.

 

[JNB]

And the latest tidbit is that the same ship (N106US) flying the same route a few days ago suffered a compressor stall on climb out, but continued normally to CLT.

Let the speculation commence.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Anyway, I thought this was interesting.

Indeed!

So what number on the dual engine out checklist is the step "pray to the deity of your choice"?

 

[JNB]

Indeed!

So what number on the dual engine out checklist is the step "pray to the deity of your choice"?

Not in Dual-Engine out, but it is in the Ditching Procedures, last item on Page 3…

 

[dmr727]

Not in Dual-Engine out, but it is in the Ditching Procedures, last item on Page 3…

Heh! Awesome!

 

[IJ Reilly]

Great

 

[dmr727]

I'm curious JNB - what airplane is that for? Seems to be a light twin with the plural 'mixtures' - maybe a 310?

 

[sushi]

Learning to fly can be an exercise in humiliation.

Isn't that the truth.

Interesting that the media hasn't said a word about the First Officer. He was up there too.

Kind of curious about that as well.

Credit is also due to certain passengers who reportedly helped calm down their more hysterical fellows and kept the movement out of the plane orderly. Had there been mass panic inside the plane we could have had some drownings or a stampede.

True. These passengers made a difference.

Not in Dual-Engine out, but it is in the Ditching Procedures, last item on Page 3…

Heh! Awesome!

No kidding.

 

[JNB]

I'm curious JNB - what airplane is that for? Seems to be a light twin with the plural 'mixtures' - maybe a 310?

Yup, C310. Good catch.

 

[jzuena]

In other words, the writers of the checklists didn't anticipate a dual engine failure so close to the ground. It's not that they weren't thorough - they even have an area where it gives pitch attitudes for best glide if the engines failed due to volcanic ash (thinking the ash might gum up the pitot tubes - knocking out the airspeed indicators).

Ash can do more than just block the ram and/or static air ports, it can cause the engines to flame out. There have been a couple of 747s that lost all four engines from it. I don't think the A320 engines are any less susceptible to flameout due to ash.

ALPA's Volcanic Ash Hazards to Airliners fact sheet

 

[jzuena]

So in case the geeks here are curious, my wife got home last night and I proceeded to steal and rummage through her Airbus abnormal checklist:

There is a checklist for dual engine failure (ENG DUAL FAILURE).

It says that the 320 will glide up to 2.2 nautical miles per 1000 feet of altitude, assuming a clean condition doing 280knots indicated. Also, there's a green dot that displays on the speed tape of the Captain's PFD (Primary Flight Display) that indicates maximum L/D, or best glide.

This checklist assumes the airplane is at altitude when the engines flame out, which of course wasn't the case. All in all, including the section where it goes through the ditching items, the checklist is three pages in length - far too long for the amount of time they had. According to the airline pilot rumor mill (read: speculation) the Captain called for this checklist, and they didn't make it all the way through. That's the reason why they didn't push the Ditching pushbutton - they just didn't get to that item.

There is also a separate ditching checklist (Ditching), which is far, far shorter. If there's also a dual engine failure, it refers you to the checklist above, once the ditching items are complete.

In other words, the writers of the checklists didn't anticipate a dual engine failure so close to the ground. It's not that they weren't thorough - they even have an area where it gives pitch attitudes for best glide if the engines failed due to volcanic ash (thinking the ash might gum up the pitot tubes - knocking out the airspeed indicators).

Anyway, I thought this was interesting.

It is interesting, and it seems the 320 actually glides pretty well (for an airliner). From FL230 [roughly 23000 feet if there are any non-pilots left] you would get more than 50nm if the ground is at sea level.

Indeed!

So what number on the dual engine out checklist is the step "pray to the deity of your choice"?

Maybe Airbus uses the equally telling KYAG step on their checklist

 

[Consultant]

Luggage reimbursement:
$5000 check to each traveler

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/01/20/usairways.passengers/index.html

 

[dmr727]

Ash can do more than just block the ram and/or static air ports, it can cause the engines to flame out. There have been a couple of 747s that lost all four engines from it. I don't think the A320 engines are any less susceptible to flameout due to ash.

Yep - that's what I was talking about. The 319/320/321 checklist I was referring to specifically discusses dual engine flameout due to ash, and gives additional guidance if the static ports are blocked as well.

 

[IJ Reilly]

I took off once with my pitot tube blocked. That was fun. Made pretty good time considering I was flying a zero knots indicated.

 

[sushi]

It is interesting, and it seems the 320 actually glides pretty well (for an airliner). From FL230 [roughly 23000 feet if there are any non-pilots left] you would get more than 50nm if the ground is at sea level.

That's a bit farther than I expected. Around a 13 to 1 glide ratio if my math is correct.

Sure beats a helicopter in autorotation. The chin bubble (by your feet) is a good indication of your landing area.

I took off once with my pitot tube blocked. That was fun. Made pretty good time considering I was flying a zero knots indicated.

Ha ha. That sounds like fun.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Ha ha. That sounds like fun.

Oh, yeah. Long story how it happened, but the short version is I had one of those old-fashioned flapper covers over the tube. The top part got bent down a little so it didn't flap open in the wind. I actually did one takeoff run and couldn't figure out why the AS indicator just kept bouncing on the peg, so I aborted. Taxied back and did another walk-around. Still didn't see anything wrong, so I added 10 flaps and tried it again. Couldn't keep the airplane the ground in that configuration. Finally the little light bulb went on in my head -- I looked over at the wing and saw the culprit. Had about 100 hours in the book at that point. So what did my CFI tell me about these situations? Oh, right -- fly the airplane! Suddenly it made sense. Climbed out on the VSI and tach and was fine, once I stopped sweating.

 

[sushi]

Oh, yeah. Long story how it happened, but the short version is I had one of those old-fashioned flapper covers over the tube. The top part got bent down a little so it didn't flap open in the wind. I actually did one takeoff run and couldn't figure out why the AS indicator just kept bouncing on the peg, so I aborted. Taxied back and did another walk-around. Still didn't see anything wrong, so I added 10 flaps and tried it again. Couldn't keep the airplane the ground in that configuration. Finally the little light bulb went on in my head -- I looked over at the wing and saw the culprit. Had about 100 hours in the book at that point. So what did my CFI tell me about these situations? Oh, right -- fly the airplane! Suddenly it made sense. Climbed out on the VSI and tach and was fine, once I stopped sweating.

Interesting.

True words about flying the airplane/helicopter or whatever first. Got to keep the shinny side up.

In the case of this accident, if I understand correctly they did not have time to complete the ditching checklist. How many steps are there? Must have been quite a few. If so, I bet there will be an update after this incident.

With the military helicopters that I flew, all emergency procedures were required to be committed to memory. One of which, in a Cobra, required the pilot to recognize and apply the immediate action within 1 second to ensure survivability. The Cobra had many other interesting quirks compared other helicopters since it has the only rotor system of it's kind.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Interesting.

True words about flying the airplane/helicopter or whatever first. Got to keep the shinny side up.

"Fly the airplane" never really made sense to me until this happened. I mean, of course I'm flying the airplane. Then you get hit by the unexpected and are forced to prioritize in a hurry. That's when you remember, fly the airplane (and worry about the other stuff later). Worked for me, and I suspect that's pretty much what worked for this US Air crew.