I'm not sure why so many people are having issues with iOS 7 performance on the 4S. I have iOS 7 running on my old iPhone 4 and it runs really well. Some of the animations aren't as smooth as they are on the iPhone 5, but still pretty good.
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Planned Obsolescence?
- Thread starter ShakinBake
- Start date
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All those things can easily be explained as part of rushing out to get something fully vetted in a timeley manner. Perhaps putting in other memory chips into iPad and making room for that would have delayed some production or testing or something and Apples iPad wouldn't have released until some months later than it did. And what if someone released even a semi-decent tablet in that time besting Apple to being the first ones with actually a useful everyday everyman type of tablet? That's a huge huge difference there. So certainly perhaps some business reasons behind it, but doesn't have to be anything related to planned obsolescence or anything else conspiratorially sinister like that.
It indeed should. It's seriously lagging behind the competition.
It's still much more convenient - it lets you always charge your devices without hving to plug them in. I love it - it's REALLY useful. Too bad Apple didn't add it (either).
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Still,
1, they should have at least run some feasibility tests... they could have realized 256M was just too little even with iOS 3.2. For example, Web pages occupy 4-5 times more memory (in general, between 10 and 40 Mbytes) with an iOS device with an XGA memory; almost an order of magnitude less with a non-Retina iPhone. And the iPad 1 has the same amount of memory as the non-Retina iPhone - no wonder the latter crashes far less frequently when running apps / removes the contents of closed tabs etc.
2, the iPad was released just some 3-4 months before the 512Mbyte-RAM iPhone 4. I'm pretty sure they could have put 512M RAM in the iPad too.
All nice ideas and conjectures, but hard to say what overall business risk they carried when compared to being first to market and all that came with it. Despite those kinds of drawbacks for some extra longevity, in the extremely fast moving pace of the mobile world, it could very well be that being able to deliver what they did and when they did and how they did was more instrumental to Apple and perhaps even the industry and this even the consumers.
You guys with the specs don't realize how apple works it:
These feature sets existed in a different package on older smartphones back before iPhone 2007. They weren't as advanced but the concept is still the same, a ton of options for the end user whether it is useful or not, it's an optional feature included.
When the iPhone came along, apple created a monster package - a phone that did 1/4 of what other phones did feature wise but it was easy to use and near flawless executing the features it did provide: basic phone dialing with touchscreen WITHOUT THE LAG WHEN HITTING THE NUMBERS ONSCREEN - unlike so many non-iphones before. It didn't have apps, yet. It didn't allow bluetooth capabilities like on other non-iphones. It didn't even support mms until a few years later!
the biggest issue with iOS is that it was fantastic when it arrived usability wise - but then after everyone realized how great a capacitive touch screen was and how much improvements are to come from the iPhone's success, the other manufacturers and developers did just that - they improved and improved year after year but while apple stood still.
Apple was stuck on the same concept of ease of use and basically rebooted itself over and over with each year with each iPhone release. Now with iOS 7, it's no different underneath than iOS 6. It's just a non-textured UI SKIN on top of the same weak iOS platform. Sure it has a lot of nice apps that look great (apple is a design company first) - but after all that pink lipstick smeared away, you realize (if you have a brain), apple's iOS sucks.
It's nearly 2014 and on the phone side, Android has exceeded apple by a long mile. There are so many useful features available but where android fails compared to apple is of course, DESIGN! Android apps aren't as consistent UI wise, and of course lack the "polish" of an app on iOS. I have a galaxy note 3 it is the best smartphone I've used since the original iPhone 3GS. It has so many features that I probably won't use daily but the fact it lets me do OTG hard drives, usb memory sticks, keyboards, mice, you name it it can support it out of box without root. It has wifi-direct, it has wireless AC, it has Qi compatible charging, removable battery, microSD for up to 256GB support (not-officially), notification lights with different colors, 720p slow-motion with 1/2,1/4,1/8 settings, 4K video recording, way way way better microphone with zoom support, 360 pano pics, image stabilization front and rear cameras, dual camera recording, tons of filters and add-ons, and those are just the short list for the CAMERA features!
Of course an app can totally reconfigure the camera hardware and improve upon it! Unlike iOS i can't get any app to control the camera hardware the way an android app can. You see, iOS is stuck in 2007 concept where the end user doesn't know any better. But it's 2014 and everyone understands how to use a smartphone with touch and it's time to open up more. You can't even multitask on an iOS properly with 1GB ram because unlike my note 3 with 3GB, I never even experience a single lag when switching apps - they all switch instantly and work without lag right away. Power of more RAM!
I don't foresee apple changing because their revenues dictate how well they are doing and as long as you guys keep buying iPhones, they will never improve. Unfortunately in this world, there are a ton of people who prefer to be simple minded and I don't blame you guys to think this way - but at least try out a competing device for an extensive period of time - you may not like android but you cannot deny the amount of options available!
These feature sets existed in a different package on older smartphones back before iPhone 2007. They weren't as advanced but the concept is still the same, a ton of options for the end user whether it is useful or not, it's an optional feature included.
When the iPhone came along, apple created a monster package - a phone that did 1/4 of what other phones did feature wise but it was easy to use and near flawless executing the features it did provide: basic phone dialing with touchscreen WITHOUT THE LAG WHEN HITTING THE NUMBERS ONSCREEN - unlike so many non-iphones before. It didn't have apps, yet. It didn't allow bluetooth capabilities like on other non-iphones. It didn't even support mms until a few years later!
the biggest issue with iOS is that it was fantastic when it arrived usability wise - but then after everyone realized how great a capacitive touch screen was and how much improvements are to come from the iPhone's success, the other manufacturers and developers did just that - they improved and improved year after year but while apple stood still.
Apple was stuck on the same concept of ease of use and basically rebooted itself over and over with each year with each iPhone release. Now with iOS 7, it's no different underneath than iOS 6. It's just a non-textured UI SKIN on top of the same weak iOS platform. Sure it has a lot of nice apps that look great (apple is a design company first) - but after all that pink lipstick smeared away, you realize (if you have a brain), apple's iOS sucks.
It's nearly 2014 and on the phone side, Android has exceeded apple by a long mile. There are so many useful features available but where android fails compared to apple is of course, DESIGN! Android apps aren't as consistent UI wise, and of course lack the "polish" of an app on iOS. I have a galaxy note 3 it is the best smartphone I've used since the original iPhone 3GS. It has so many features that I probably won't use daily but the fact it lets me do OTG hard drives, usb memory sticks, keyboards, mice, you name it it can support it out of box without root. It has wifi-direct, it has wireless AC, it has Qi compatible charging, removable battery, microSD for up to 256GB support (not-officially), notification lights with different colors, 720p slow-motion with 1/2,1/4,1/8 settings, 4K video recording, way way way better microphone with zoom support, 360 pano pics, image stabilization front and rear cameras, dual camera recording, tons of filters and add-ons, and those are just the short list for the CAMERA features!
Of course an app can totally reconfigure the camera hardware and improve upon it! Unlike iOS i can't get any app to control the camera hardware the way an android app can. You see, iOS is stuck in 2007 concept where the end user doesn't know any better. But it's 2014 and everyone understands how to use a smartphone with touch and it's time to open up more. You can't even multitask on an iOS properly with 1GB ram because unlike my note 3 with 3GB, I never even experience a single lag when switching apps - they all switch instantly and work without lag right away. Power of more RAM!
I don't foresee apple changing because their revenues dictate how well they are doing and as long as you guys keep buying iPhones, they will never improve. Unfortunately in this world, there are a ton of people who prefer to be simple minded and I don't blame you guys to think this way - but at least try out a competing device for an extensive period of time - you may not like android but you cannot deny the amount of options available!
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Well I did follow your advice and found a very nice explanation online in a macrumors forum post #21.
And about the LED you can turn on Accessibility Settings and enable the LED flash for Alerts.
I think that tide is (slowly) turning. It's easy enough to justify handing down an iPad to a family member to help justify purchasing the latest one. But there may be a point when people ask themselves, "why pay for premium quality hardware when the OS and software will make it obsolete long before the hardware itself wears out?"
iOS is changing quickly and requiring greater hardware specs... Why pay for an exterior shell that would last 50 years if the internals will only last 5?
Well, to be fair, that's a completely different LED notification system, and not the same thing at all.
Planned obsolescence would mean not letting you upgrade to the latest version of iOS at all. Pretty sure you are thinking about Android
Google just released Kitkat, which supports older devices than jelly bean. Also those with older devices might have been better off not being able to update to iOS 7. My iPhone worked just fine before it, even though I think iOS 7 looks better.
i agree there should be a LED light in the front of the iPhone to let you know if you have a notification like in android or Blackberry. it would be a nice touch for the new iPhone 6.
i don't like the LED flash notification.
Apple should have made it quite clear that iOS7 would make the iPhone 4 slow as hell and they should also have made it perfectly clear that iOS7 would reduce the battery life of the iPhone 5 by approx 3 hours per charge cycle.
To not make either of these issues downright clear is horrendous business practice. If you own an iPhone 4 which was working perfectly well and then Apple kill it with a software update, you're hardly likely to reward them for that manouevre by purchasing another phone off them! Likewise, if like myself you own a 4-month old iPhone 5 and Apple ruin the battery life with a software update which I have given them two months to fix, are you going to make an iPhone your next purchase come handset upgrade time? Highly unlikely.
To not make either of these issues downright clear is horrendous business practice. If you own an iPhone 4 which was working perfectly well and then Apple kill it with a software update, you're hardly likely to reward them for that manouevre by purchasing another phone off them! Likewise, if like myself you own a 4-month old iPhone 5 and Apple ruin the battery life with a software update which I have given them two months to fix, are you going to make an iPhone your next purchase come handset upgrade time? Highly unlikely.
Just keep in mind that Windows 7 was "snappier" than Windows Vista, and Windows 8 actually runs on hardware that Windows 7 cannot run on. Apple could write software that runs circles on the 4s, they choose not to.
It's a deliberate choice on Apple's part to make older devices less useful.
Intereresting......
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So let me get this straight.....I think I have the jist of this thread:
(1) Apple sucks for making older devices not run newer software to perfection....
(2) But that newer software isn't good enough feature wise....
So we want Apple to both make software easier on old hardware AND more feature packed with all sorts of worthless techy nonsense?
Do you people realize how idiotic these statements are? Forget the fact that Apple exists to MAKE MONEY (if they made a product that lasted 50 years with perfect software that lasted 50 years, they wouldn't really make much unless that product cost a LOT of money), each year Apple (and other tech companies) do what they can to improve on their products - both hardware and software - based on their vision of what that product should be/used for. Never mind that these products have been around for LESS than a DECADE....
So we want products to constantly improve, while NOT improving?
The real issue here is entitled consumers who believe Apple (or whatever company) should be handing them new devices on a silver platter....you don't like what Apple puts out, don't buy it. You think its too expensive, fine. But Apple isn't doing ANYTHING wrong.
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How many years passed between the first version of Windows and Windows 8?
How many have passed between iOS 1 and iOS 7?
Obviously we are more technologically advance, but to claim that because the software isn't perfect on EVERY device its a conspiracy by Apple to cripple old devices is laughable....
Hell, even if that were the case, who cares? It's their prerogative. They don't "OWE" any of us anything. Apple isn't in business to please you - they are here to make money. Just so happens they do this by selling products hundreds of millions of people love and use daily.
As soon as a device isn't "worth the money" in a consumer's estimation (this decision is different for everyone), the consumer doesn't purchase said device. Simple. It's funny - consumers hold the ultimate power, but rather than wield it many cry and complain Apple isn't doing what they should, all the while charging that credit card purchasing a new Apple device each year.
----------
So let me get this straight.....I think I have the jist of this thread:
(1) Apple sucks for making older devices not run newer software to perfection....
(2) But that newer software isn't good enough feature wise....
So we want Apple to both make software easier on old hardware AND more feature packed with all sorts of worthless techy nonsense?
Do you people realize how idiotic these statements are? Forget the fact that Apple exists to MAKE MONEY (if they made a product that lasted 50 years with perfect software that lasted 50 years, they wouldn't really make much unless that product cost a LOT of money), each year Apple (and other tech companies) do what they can to improve on their products - both hardware and software - based on their vision of what that product should be/used for. Never mind that these products have been around for LESS than a DECADE....
So we want products to constantly improve, while NOT improving?
The real issue here is entitled consumers who believe Apple (or whatever company) should be handing them new devices on a silver platter....you don't like what Apple puts out, don't buy it. You think its too expensive, fine. But Apple isn't doing ANYTHING wrong.
----------
How many years passed between the first version of Windows and Windows 8?
How many have passed between iOS 1 and iOS 7?
Obviously we are more technologically advance, but to claim that because the software isn't perfect on EVERY device its a conspiracy by Apple to cripple old devices is laughable....
Hell, even if that were the case, who cares? It's their prerogative. They don't "OWE" any of us anything. Apple isn't in business to please you - they are here to make money. Just so happens they do this by selling products hundreds of millions of people love and use daily.
As soon as a device isn't "worth the money" in a consumer's estimation (this decision is different for everyone), the consumer doesn't purchase said device. Simple. It's funny - consumers hold the ultimate power, but rather than wield it many cry and complain Apple isn't doing what they should, all the while charging that credit card purchasing a new Apple device each year.
IMO Apple should allow the above. Apple should really allow downgrading too. If they are concerned about corporate users security, forced updates could easily be done through mdm.
This is what pisses me off most about iOS. Arbitrary restrictions, just because.
Well, they do owe us at least one thing: NOT to remove previous, existing functionality in their (unless you're super caotius, obligatory) OS upgrades. The slo-mo mode of the 4S, the antialiasing of the first two iPads etc. They have all been existing functionality removed from "old" devices just to make new models (only offering them) sell better.
These removals are actually pretty serious. A decent lawyer could cause a lot of problems to Apple, should they take up the work. No wonder Apple's forum moderators censor out every single reference to class suits from Apple's official support forum within minutes (!) ...
[/COLOR]So let me get this straight.....I think I have the jist of this thread:
(1) Apple sucks for making older devices not run newer software to perfection....
(2) But that newer software isn't good enough feature wise....
So we want Apple to both make software easier on old hardware AND more feature packed with all sorts of worthless techy nonsense?
Do you people realize how idiotic these statements are? Forget the fact that Apple exists to MAKE MONEY (if they made a product that lasted 50 years with perfect software that lasted 50 years, they wouldn't really make much unless that product cost a LOT of money), each year Apple (and other tech companies) do what they can to improve on their products - both hardware and software - based on their vision of what that product should be/used for. Never mind that these products have been around for LESS than a DECADE....
So we want products to constantly improve, while NOT improving?
The real issue here is entitled consumers who believe Apple (or whatever company) should be handing them new devices on a silver platter....you don't like what Apple puts out, don't buy it. You think its too expensive, fine. But Apple isn't doing ANYTHING wrong.
The point of this thread, or at least my point, is that older devices shouldn't be forced to update with any type of unnecessary features that it can't handle anyway. Keeping the iPhone 4 or 4s the way it was or at least retaining the option to stay the way it was would have improved its longevity and functionality. Instead this update was forced upon everyone. The result being more crashes, less battery and a slower device overall to those with older gens.
----------
How many years passed between the first version of Windows and Windows 8?
How many have passed between iOS 1 and iOS 7?
Obviously we are more technologically advance, but to claim that because the software isn't perfect on EVERY device its a conspiracy by Apple to cripple old devices is laughable....
Hell, even if that were the case, who cares? It's their prerogative. They don't "OWE" any of us anything. Apple isn't in business to please you - they are here to make money. Just so happens they do this by selling products hundreds of millions of people love and use daily.
As soon as a device isn't "worth the money" in a consumer's estimation (this decision is different for everyone), the consumer doesn't purchase said device. Simple. It's funny - consumers hold the ultimate power, but rather than wield it many cry and complain Apple isn't doing what they should, all the while charging that credit card purchasing a new Apple device each year.[/QUOTE]
You clearly don't understand what is going on with this thread. People who are complaining about older devices that don't function the way they used to due to forced updates OBVIOUSLY haven't gone out and bought the latest and greatest iPhone.
Also sorry to be so blunt but you sound like Corporate Americas wet dream, bro.
(1) Apple sucks for making older devices not run newer software to perfection....
(2) But that newer software isn't good enough feature wise....
So we want Apple to both make software easier on old hardware AND more feature packed with all sorts of worthless techy nonsense?
Do you people realize how idiotic these statements are? Forget the fact that Apple exists to MAKE MONEY (if they made a product that lasted 50 years with perfect software that lasted 50 years, they wouldn't really make much unless that product cost a LOT of money), each year Apple (and other tech companies) do what they can to improve on their products - both hardware and software - based on their vision of what that product should be/used for. Never mind that these products have been around for LESS than a DECADE....
So we want products to constantly improve, while NOT improving?
The real issue here is entitled consumers who believe Apple (or whatever company) should be handing them new devices on a silver platter....you don't like what Apple puts out, don't buy it. You think its too expensive, fine. But Apple isn't doing ANYTHING wrong.
The point of this thread, or at least my point, is that older devices shouldn't be forced to update with any type of unnecessary features that it can't handle anyway. Keeping the iPhone 4 or 4s the way it was or at least retaining the option to stay the way it was would have improved its longevity and functionality. Instead this update was forced upon everyone. The result being more crashes, less battery and a slower device overall to those with older gens.
----------
How many years passed between the first version of Windows and Windows 8?
How many have passed between iOS 1 and iOS 7?
Obviously we are more technologically advance, but to claim that because the software isn't perfect on EVERY device its a conspiracy by Apple to cripple old devices is laughable....
Hell, even if that were the case, who cares? It's their prerogative. They don't "OWE" any of us anything. Apple isn't in business to please you - they are here to make money. Just so happens they do this by selling products hundreds of millions of people love and use daily.
As soon as a device isn't "worth the money" in a consumer's estimation (this decision is different for everyone), the consumer doesn't purchase said device. Simple. It's funny - consumers hold the ultimate power, but rather than wield it many cry and complain Apple isn't doing what they should, all the while charging that credit card purchasing a new Apple device each year.[/QUOTE]
You clearly don't understand what is going on with this thread. People who are complaining about older devices that don't function the way they used to due to forced updates OBVIOUSLY haven't gone out and bought the latest and greatest iPhone.
Also sorry to be so blunt but you sound like Corporate Americas wet dream, bro.
iOS 7 is a new major release, so it still needs to be optimized for older devices. It is not "slow" because of planned obsolescence. Planned obsolescence is when Apple doesn't support a device at all, which is normally after 2-3 years for an iOS device and longer for Macs.
Lolz... you speak as if you knew what people want. Still, you definitely don't know even the basics of photography. Below, I used italic to denote your comments.
"- 1080p60 / 4K video modes (LG G2, Note 3 etc.) Worthless to 99% of the consumer population"
Probably for old grannies. But not for people into serious shooting. I'd use the 4K mode of the Note 3 exclusively when there'd be need for serious video shooting.
And yes, I haven't even mentioned the well-advertised new slo-mo mode of the 5s is, in practice, 360p120 only. Even in that the Android-based 720p120/1080p60-capable phones (e.g., the Note 3) are way better - they don't record their footage at half the resolution.
"- OIS (Lumia 92x, 1020, 1520, LG G2, Nexus 5) The iPhone 5s is the best smartphone camera out there, with perhaps the exception of the Lumia"
Lolz... "Th3 5s 1z d4 b3st" - even when it comes to low-light photography? Without OIS? Read some reviews on how the 5s behaves in low light, will you? Let me tell you beforehand: yes, the lack of OIS shows, pretty badly.
"- Xenon flash (Lumia 920, 1020) Again, iPhone 5s = best smartphone camera.....who cares if it doesn't have this SPECIFIC thing"
Another subject you show your ignorance WRT photography. Again, at least try learning the basics before stating such ridiculous stuff. Xenon is WAY better than anything LED; if not for other things, then, for its "freezing" action.
And yes, the 5s is the best... too bad every serious reviewer (GSM Arena, PhoneArena etc.) have pointed out it's pretty bad compared to, say, the 1020. Heck, even the Z1 has beaten it in some areas. So much for being the "best".
"- large sensor (Lumia 1020 or even the Sony Z1) See above.....Apple DID increase the sensor size in the 5s btw."
They did. To 1/3". Even the Z1 is WAY bigger (1/2.3"), let alone the Lumia 1020/Nokia 808. That is, another ignorant comment from you.
"- wideangle lens (all camera Lumias and most Android flagships), particularly in video mode *sigh* broken record....."
You know nothing about video shooting, do you? One of the biggest problems with all iDevices is the very narrow FoV in video mode.
"- dual camera recording (LG G2, Note 3 etc) Ok? This may be something YOU want but I can't think of ANY instance in which this feature would be worthwhile.....certainly wouldn't consider this "innovation"....."
YOU can't. People that would like to be included in group photos can.
"- Qi (all Nexuses, several Lumias etc.) Talk to me when we have TRUE wireless charging that doesn't require a wired $60 pad I have to set my phone on....."
Not necessarily $60. I've been using a $28 pad (from Amazon with postage) with the N7.2. Works great.
"- flawless SlimPort-based HDMI (not the Lightning joke) AirPlay works better for me - no cables or wires."
AirPlay sucks when it comes to mirroring the screen. It's only at playing back multimedia that there's no difference (apart from the possible buffering in AirPlay.)
"- Wacom support (all Notes) Yes, because we all really want to be able to draw on our 4" iPhones - maybe for the iPad perhaps......I think it might be coming to a larger iPad "pro""
At last a somewhat non-ignorant comment. I too hope it'll come to the Pro.
"- f.lux (possible to do w/o rooting on most Androids) No clue what this is, which I'd gather means 99% of consumers don't know either"
Pretty ignorant, aren't you? Particularly with several threads on f.lux in this very iOS7 forum; for example, https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1666430/
"- USB OTG (Android) Nope - don't need more ports.....my Apple ecosystem takes care of any transferring of data wirelessly"
Maybe YOU don't need. USB OTG is a godsend.
"- decent Bluetooth support (for example OBEX; Android, WP8) Funny - my iPhone connects without fail to my car's BT, yet my Android phones have always been somewhat spotty....but your right, lets add more protocols 99% of people know nothing about....."
Aain, YOU don't know why OBEX would be useful. But you don't even know f.lux so I didn't expect anything else.
"- make their Wi-Fi unit much more sensitive (my Nexus 7.2 can operate over a much weaker Wi-Fi signal than my iPads and iPhones) Perhaps....though I don't notice any discernible difference between my N5 and iOS devices""
I didn't compare the N5 to iDevices. However, the N7.2 (which I did) has much better Wi-Fi sensitivity than even the 5s / Air. It seems metal housing does indeed have some major disadvantages.
No.
But if Apple was doing this (and they are not) it would be incredibly stupid. Why do you think purposely giving somebody a bad experience with an Apple product would result in that person buying another Apple product? (A product they are still selling, by the way).
If anything, it would make people move to android. And after they switch they might notice that 2 year-old android phone's battery is not as good as it used to be. And that apps don't seem as fast as they once did. And the newer phones have newer features.
It's the way technology works. And iOS 7 didn't make your 2 year old battery worse. The last 2 years did that.
Indeed he is. He has posted a long list of "arguments" (see my above post). Most of them shows he certainly doesn't have the slightest clue about what he's speaking about (e.g., the technical basics of photography).
Typical Apple fanboy.
Who's forcing who to update? If you HATE the new software so much, don't install it.
At the same time, my top point still stands - so we're upset that Apple is adding more robust features to their software, which in turn won't run on 3 year old hardware as smoothly as it would on brand new hardware?
Yet we want new features (many have argued for added features here in this thread) and often times berate Apple for not adding enough.
Seems for Apple, its a lose-lose. Of course, they could simply write the perfect software code that magically works 100% smoothly on every device ever made....dang, why haven't they done this already!
We're coming up on year 7 of the iPhone's existence. Obviously we are in the midst of a highly accelerated technological boom, but really? How long did it take Microsoft to "perfect" (no software is perfect, certainly not Microsoft's) Windows so it ran well on a wide variety of devices? Heck, Android is just now REALLY addressing the OS fragmentation by making concerted efforts to slim down Android (which carries a boat load of redundant stock apps).
My point? People need to relax. If a phone isn't working for you, you make the choice to either work through it, or buy a new one. Heck, if you're on the 4S, you could get a 5C for $100 on contract. If you don't care to upgrade all that often, the 5C will work plenty well with iOS 7 for sometime.
But if you prefer to buy a phone that will last 10 years AND work perfectly with all future software updates, sorry but you're out of luck. There isn't a smartphone on the planet like that. I'm sure we'll get there - but at this point, the smartphone - despite its HUGELY important role in our culture - just isn't there yet.
As for the corporate America bit - ya, I'm all about it. Heck, if it weren't for our capitalist system (and my Dad's work ethic) I wouldn't have enjoyed the life I have up to this point.....I also wouldn't have the opportunities I have at this point to do the same thing he did and make a success of myself. But I'm not going to get into all of this here.....would only derail the thread into an eco-political war.