Planning ahead when buying a television

[balamw]

your only real hope is to decide on a handful of features or performance standards that are essential to you and to rule everything else out altogether from the outset.

Yup, narrow it down to one pool, hold your nose and take the plunge.

Another thing that was useful for me was to actually spend some time and play with the UI of the TV. They have so many features that you want ti to be somewhat intuitive. (Of course that is a bit subjective).

I have two LCD HDTVs, one Toshiba and one Samsung. The Samsung beats the Toshiba hands down in the area of usability. I also found the UIs of some of the other units I was considering to be a bit perplexing at times, so they quickly dropped off the map.

B

 

[IJ Reilly]

That's just it; you can't. There are so many minor variations, even within given technologies, that no one person can stay on top of everything. TV shopping is even worse than computer shopping--your only real hope is to decide on a handful of features or performance standards that are essential to you and to rule everything else out altogether from the outset.

Once you've cut down the field, then you can start comparing the small details. I personally find it useful to confine myself to a few brands as well during the second round of cutbacks--unless there's a stellar model from a brand I wouldn't normally consider, I stick to a group of 6 or 7 brands which vary depending on the product. Even after all this cutting back, I'm still stuck with a good 15-20 individual products to consider, which is just enough for me to have variety and sanity at the same time.

And then throw a dart?

I'm looking for a 32" set (or possibly a 33-34" if such a thing was made), which pretty much rules out 1080p because nobody makes one that small. This week, anyhow. Now I'm narrowed down to 720p, but I'm getting the impression that some of the 720p sets will display 1080i but not 1080p. Good grief! Some have HD tuners, which sounds like a good thing, until you notice that they don't have a cable card slot which means no HBO (our only cable subscription) without the box. So what good is the tuner? Roughly zero, I guess. Some only have two aspect ratio settings, which apparently means that non-anamorphic DVDs will be clipped. How many of those do I own? Geez, I don't know. I just know it's unacceptable to pay a grand for a TV that doesn't display a 100% image.

And so on and so on. The more I know about this the less I know!

 

[balamw]

I'm getting the impression that some of the 720p sets will display 1080i but not 1080p.

The only thing I can add is that anything that calls itself an HDTV must be able to accept 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i as inputs and display the picture as best it can.

As I've already said, I'd vote for more inputs (particularly HDMI) over CableCard or an OTA tuner since you can always add a set top box, and the STBs will keep on improving (e.g. adding DVR functions, etc...) to where a CableCard isn't likely to keep up.

B

 

[Doctor Q]

There are so many minor variations, even within given technologies, that no one person can stay on top of everything. ... Once you've cut down the field, then you can start comparing the small details.

That's what I've done with a spreadsheet, which I gradually cut down. First I list many choices, with only the basic facts. Then I fill in enough so that, for each make, I can decide which models I'd actually consider. Then I continue to add more columns for details I care about, filling in the specs and notes and eliminating any model that is inferior to another choice. That's how I ended up with my short list of three.

But then I hear about another factor I've failed to consider, and may have to step back a level!

 

[IJ Reilly]

But then I hear about another factor I've failed to consider, and may have to step back a level!

So, how keep from stepping back more often than forwards? That's my conundrum.

 

[matticus008]

So what good is the tuner? Roughly zero, I guess. Some only have two aspect ratio settings, which apparently means that non-anamorphic DVDs will be clipped. How many of those do I own? Geez, I don't know. I just know it's unacceptable to pay a grand for a TV that doesn't display a 100% image.

In the modern era, almost all TV tuning is handled by a dedicated receiver box. The tuner is, as you say, just about useless for almost everyone buying an HDTV. Maybe one day, we'll have dozens of HD channels in spectacular 1080p glory for free. But right now, the handful of HD channels (many of which are 'just' 720p anyway) makes a built-in tuner worthless. If you buy the HDTV for DVDs, you don't need a tuner. If you buy it for an HD subscription, you don't need the tuner. If you have a digital subscription, even non-HD, you don't need the tuner. Sort of a sad state of affairs.

As for the aspect ratio problem, I suspect that it's a confusing tangle of marketing terms and incomplete internet reviews. I doubt that any TV would have only pan and scan modes, though, if that's your concern. Keep in mind that 2.35:1 DVDs are 'squished' by every single display on the market--there's no TV at that aspect ratio, so you can't escape some aspect ratio goofiness no matter what you do.

So, how keep from stepping back more often than forwards? That's my conundrum.

Learn as much as you can (or are willing) before even beginning to look at individual models. Choose your important criteria, and then start the browsing. Sadly, it's too late for most people in this thread .

 

[balamw]

So, how keep from stepping back more often than forwards? That's my conundrum.

Leap, dear sir, Leap!

B

 

[mac000]

Circuit city has a great selection of HDTV'S and their no interest for 2 years is a case closed to me.

just bought a 32" LG for a very good price

 

[Doctor Q]

And look what else I found: A $100 rebate on the 37LC2D this week.

Oops. Always gotta read the fine print!

Purchases made at Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, 6th Avenue Electronics, and Radio Shack are excluded from this mail in rebate offer.​

 

[Doctor Q]

Oops. Always gotta read the fine print!

Purchases made at Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, 6th Avenue Electronics, and Radio Shack are excluded from this mail in rebate offer.​

I went to three stores, checked models, prices, and inventory, and played with the remotes and TV settings on the Sharp and LG models I was interested in.

I had been leaning toward the Sharp because I trust the brand, it has 2 HDMI inputs, was a little cheaper, and had a backlight adjustment, but after experimenting I much preferred the LG 37LC2D to the Sharp LC37D40U. The LG's remote layout and on-screen menus were nicer, the Sharp's backlight didn't make as much difference as I expected on the various types of images I viewed, and I didn't like the fingerprint-collecting glossy Sharp case; it reflected light and distracted from the screen.

I showed the salesperson a printout of the $100 LG rebate form and asked him if he could find out why Best Buy was excluded (implying that I would be forced to buy elsewhere). I knew just what he'd do... go talk to the manager and come back to offer me $100 off. Sure enough, he did! So I bought the LG. (See my bargaining thread.)

I hope I made the right choice. I'll let you know once I've installed it and had some experience using it.

 

[balamw]

I hope I made the right choice. I'll let you know once I've installed it and had some experience using it.

Nice leap!

Seems like you had a similar experience to mine in that the UI that felt right ultimately played a big role in your final decision.

B

 

[IJ Reilly]

As for the aspect ratio problem, I suspect that it's a confusing tangle of marketing terms and incomplete internet reviews. I doubt that any TV would have only pan and scan modes, though, if that's your concern. Keep in mind that 2.35:1 DVDs are 'squished' by every single display on the market--there's no TV at that aspect ratio, so you can't escape some aspect ratio goofiness no matter what you do.

Now, this is one area where I'm really confused. Will a DVD not display in letterboxed format on an HDTV to account for the difference in aspect ratio between the source and the display, just as it does on a conventional TV?

I realize that a (depressing) number of people are perfectly happy watching a 4:3 signal stretched to 16:9, but I think that looks vomitous in the extreme, and I don't want to watch my favorite movies arbitrarily distorted or clipped. If that's the only way, then what's the point?

Leap, dear sir, Leap!

I hope you don't hang around near bridges.

 

[balamw]

Now, this is one area where I'm really confused. Will a DVD not display in letterboxed format on an HDTV to account for the difference in aspect ratio between the source and the display, just as it does on a conventional TV?

This is one of the things I dislike with a passion about my Toshiba LCD HDTV that has a built in DVD player. It isn't smart enough to display DVDs properly at the right aspect ratio. The cheap Sony DVD player I have hooked up to the other HDTV does a much better job of detecting the right raitio and adapting, but there are a number of DVDs I have that are "letterboxed widescreen" instead of "anamorphic widescreen" a.k.a. optimized for widescreen.

These actually have the black bars encoded in a full frame video format. On a standard 4:3 TV it looks the same as anamorphic, but on a 16:9 display it ends up with black bars on all sides. This is when you want to be able to overrride it and have it fill the display.

I hope you don't hang around near bridges.

Worked for Q. Hope he still likes his purchase.

B

 

[matticus008]

Now, this is one area where I'm really confused. Will a DVD not display in letterboxed format on an HDTV to account for the difference in aspect ratio between the source and the display, just as it does on a conventional TV?

It will, but that's one form of "aspect ratio goofiness." As balamw mentioned, lots of TVs put four black bars around certain signals, whereas some (like mine) have a "zoom" mode that attempts to cut out black borders on the top and bottom of a signal where they're encoded.

For example, TV shows like ER and The West Wing on SD broadcast are transmitted in letterbox for SDTVs--HDTVs add black bars to the sides (to adjust for the 4:3) SDTV picture, and a few of them have a mode which tries to identify black bars encoded in the picture and eliminate them (usually by just cutting off a preset percentage of the top and bottom of the picture). So with ER, the picture is zoomed until the top and bottom black bars are off the screen as much as possible and the side black bars are reduced to narrow strips. Any weather scrolls that come across the screen, however, are then cut off, as are parts of network watermarks, etc.

Also, what you'll find in some cases is that 2.35:1 DVDs are horizontally squished a tiny bit on some sets such that the actual measure of the picture is, say, 2.25:1--just a small change. Some (usually off-brand) TVs will do this in order to make the picture slightly bigger, which isn't enough to be obvious, but is enough for your brain to take notice at least subconsciously. This hopefully is more rare these days (not that it was ever commonplace) now that people pay attention to aspect ratio more.

In part I misunderstood your statement--I thought the black bar problem was something you hoped to eliminate. HDTVs are usually 16:10--so almost every souce will have black bars (even some cable 'HD' programming). But for some of them, using a stretch mode might be okay when it's really close to 16:10, and for others, your TV might have a zoom mode to help. I'm okay with black bars, but lots of other people hate them, so I was trying to cover both sides.

 

[IJ Reilly]

These actually have the black bars encoded in a full frame video format. On a standard 4:3 TV it looks the same as anamorphic, but on a 16:9 display it ends up with black bars on all sides. This is when you want to be able to overrride it and have it fill the display.

But will it fill the display by stretching or clipping? This is what I need to understand. For instance, my DVD of "A Star is Born" (1954) is a letterboxed version of a film shot in CinemaScope (2.35:1). Will I ever be able to see this movie displayed properly on an HD set? By properly, I mean the full frame utilizing the entire width of the display and with black bars on the top and bottom to compensate for the proportions? Or must I watch it stretched vertically or clipped horizontally? (Or as a postage stamp in the middle?)

 

[IJ Reilly]

In part I misunderstood your statement--I thought the black bar problem was something you hoped to eliminate. HDTVs are usually 16:10--so almost every souce will have black bars (even some cable 'HD' programming). But for some of them, using a stretch mode might be okay when it's really close to 16:10, and for others, your TV might have a zoom mode to help. I'm okay with black bars, but lots of other people hate them, so I was trying to cover both sides.

I'm fine with black bars, when they appear to properly compensate for the aspect ratio of the original material. When I watch a movie at home, I want to see it as it was originally projected in the theater, never clipped or stretched. I am wary of how this is being handled in HDTVs because I'm seeing how comfortable people are becoming with distorted TV images, even nauseatingly distorted images like 4:3 displayed as 16:9, so long as it fills that entire display they paid so much dough to own. I don't want it to be "big," I want it to be "right."

So how do I get that?

 

[matticus008]

But will it fill the display by stretching or clipping? This is what I need to understand. For instance, my DVD of "A Star is Born" (1954) is a letterboxed version of a film shot in CinemaScope (2.35:1). Will I ever be able to see this movie displayed properly on an HD set? By properly, I mean the full frame utilizing the entire width of the display and with black bars on the top and bottom to compensate for the proportions? Or must I watch it stretched vertically or clipped horizontally? (Or as a postage stamp in the middle?)

The zoom modes fill the display horizontally by clipping portions at the top and bottom. The general setting of TVs is to display the full width and add black bars to the top or bottom. If displaying the full width makes the image too tall for the TV, it then scales the image size down until all dimensions fit on the screen (resulting in black bars at the sides).

If the original source has black bars pre-encoded into the image, the TV will by default count those black bars as "real information" and display them fully--resulting in four black bars (two on the sides from the TV, two on the top/bottom from the source). Films that are letterboxed to begin with end up being reduced far more than necessary.

To counter this, some TVs have a zoom mode that assumes a 16:10 or 16:9 letterbox being used in the source. They will then take the source dimensions and cut off the appropriate number of pixels from the top and bottom, assuming them to be pre-encoded black bars. The resized source is then displayed using the TVs normal scaling, but having cut off the "anticipated" black bars, the image is much larger and ends up being similar to something properly encoded. The zoom mode is not an automatic function; users must select it manually when one of these sources is used, if they choose to.

If you just want it to be "right" then you usually do nothing at all. Black bars will be added to preserve the original ratio wherever possible. Some TVs might be preset to "stretch" but all you have to do is change the display setting to "1:1" or whatever its marketing equivalent may be.

Hope this helps.

 

[balamw]

The zoom mode is not an automatic function; users must select it manually when one of these sources is used

Yeah, and that's what annoys the stuffing out of me with the Toshiba. It is dumb and doesn't adjust, plus there are about 7 different modes that will crop and stretch and squeeze the display in different ways. To watch King Kong on WS DVD on the Toshiba and view the subtities I had to futz with the settings a lot to get an acceptable picture that would fill the screen, not distort the characters and still allow me to see the subtitles. Pain and misery.

The of course the next time my kids wanted to watch a 4:3 program on DVD on the same TV you have to undo all the previous settings manually. Blech.

B

 

[Doctor Q]

The LG models have a zoom feature, and they offer you a few increments. It's easy to use and that's one reason I decided to go with an LG.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The zoom modes fill the display horizontally by clipping portions at the top and bottom.

Check me on this, but I think you meant to say that it will clip left and right to fill the display vertically (using my example of a 2.35:1 letterboxed DVD). If the TV insists on filling the screen top to bottom, I'd lose about 30% of the horizontal image. Correct?

I've played with the zoom features on some sets, but they seem to be (mainly) limited to various unsatisfactory stretches, distortions and crops. How do you determine which TVs have more fully-featured zoom features? I don't see this in the specification charts.

Thanks for the help, btw. Hope I'm not being overly dense.

 

[IJ Reilly]

The LG models have a zoom feature, and they offer you a few increments. It's easy to use and that's one reason I decided to go with an LG.

I downloaded the user manual for this line of sets. It describes this feature:

Cinema Zoom
Choose Cinema Zoom when you want to enlarge the picture in correct proportion. Note: When enlarging or reducing the picture, the image may become distorted. You can adjust the enlarge proportion of Cinema Zoom using up / down button. The adjustment range is 1~16.

This sounds like it does what I want, but I'm kind of concerned by their use of the word "distorted," which seems to contradict the concept of "in correct proportion." Perhaps they meant "blurry"?

Have you tried this feature yet?

 

[matticus008]

Check me on this, but I think you meant to say that it will clip left and right to fill the display vertically (using my example of a 2.35:1 letterboxed DVD). If the TV insists on filling the screen top to bottom, I'd lose about 30% of the horizontal image. Correct?

Well, if you zoom a proper 2.35:1 DVD, you're going to lose quite a bit of the picture--the zoom mode is for sources which add black bars to make the picture closer to 4:3. If you zoom a 2.35:1 letterbox DVD, you will lose the edges, exactly as you believe. I should make it clear that when I say "letterbox" I am referring to those formats which come with the black bars directly encoded, just in case there's any confusion.

Maybe pictures would help. I will attach one shortly, since I'm bored at work anyway.

I've played with the zoom features on some sets, but they seem to be (mainly) limited to various unsatisfactory stretches, distortions and crops.

Zoom and fill features are exactly that--cropping or distorting features. Fill modes will stretch the image in one or more directions to make it fill the screen area, while zoom modes will crop the image, again in an attempt to fill the screen area. Zoom modes are useful for letterboxed programs in 16x9 or 16x10 widescreen, but not very useful for 2.35:1 letterboxed formats (with those, you'll be stuck either with four black bars or missing portions of video action no matter what you do).

 

[Doctor Q]

Have you tried this feature yet?

I played with it in the store, and their picture-perfect in-store hi-def digital signal looked fine zoomed at various levels. I didn't notice any distortion, just porportional enlarging, like clicking Zoom In in Preview.app.

But I just unpacked my own set and have yet to even open the box with the power cord. And I'll probably have to make a run back to the store for overpriced cables before I can try all the possible hookups.

There's only one thing I'm regretting... While I was loading the box into the car, a guy drove up and asked me if I wanted to buy some speakers because "somebody canceled a delivery and the boss would be mad if I came back with them". I said no thanks (obviously something shady), finished pushing the big box into the car, and then realized I should have written down his license plate number and reported it. :kicks self:

 

[JAT]

If you'd like to know more about the white van (it was a white van, right?) speakers, do a search for Theater Logic. There are some hilarious threads over at remotecentral.com about them. While not exactly illegal, most places, they are not worth your time.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Zoom and fill features are exactly that--cropping or distorting features. Fill modes will stretch the image in one or more directions to make it fill the screen area, while zoom modes will crop the image, again in an attempt to fill the screen area. Zoom modes are useful for letterboxed programs in 16x9 or 16x10 widescreen, but not very useful for 2.35:1 letterboxed formats (with those, you'll be stuck either with four black bars or missing portions of video action no matter what you do).

Zoom should not be a crop, inherently, I think. Again assuming my 2.35:1 letterboxed DVD... it is made to show the full width of the original image with black bars top and bottom on a 4:3 conventional TV. Ideally, a zoom feature on a 16:9 TV should allow you to zoom the letterboxed image such that the only loss of image is part of the black bars encoded at the top and bottom. If this feature is implemented correctly, the width should be able to adjusted to something close to the width of the screen with either very minimal black bars left and right or minimal cropping. Right?

Fills, I understand. They're fine for people who don't care if everybody on the screen looks like the Pillsbury Doughboy.