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SeaFox said:
What do you think "agreeing to terms of contract" means? If you don't like the terms of the agreement, you don't use the iTMS. That is what "standing up against that kind of business behavior" is. Not using programs to violate the agreement. The moment you signed up for the iTMS and started using it you "gave in to their demands".

If the terms of service bother you so much you can buy CD's in stores and pay cash to avoid any DRM or tracking of what you bought.

You did you never think about that?

An agreement is only valid if the agreement is legal. Its the same as a prenupt. Of course if I can put in there that I will always get the kids no matter what and don't have to pay any support. I can write any jack I want in there. But that doesn't make it legal, even if my partner was going to sign it. Afterwards she can go to court and they will throw it in the trash where it belongs. So far no one has taken DRM to court to see if those restrictions were even constitutional, until then those agreements !MAY! be legal but they also !MAY NOT! be legal. Until we have a precedent, or better a supreme court ruling, I take my chances.
Regards,

Ahmed
 
By using the Music Store you actually agree to implied terms. IF YOU BREACH THEM YOU ARE LIABLE FOR VARIOUS CHARGES.

The authors of Fair Play don't actually do the decoding but they ARE accessoried to it, guilty of incitement, aiding and abetting all contractual breaches.

Apple is entitled to claim back losses arising from the use of such an application which may be measured in terms of 'goodness' lost from their negotiations - the protection is part of what earns the contracts which earns the money.

Napster can be seen in a similar light - downloading MP3s from it as backups to CDs was not illegal but actions that were brought about by its mere existance which could have been avoided had Napster taken effective steps resulted in technical theft. Napster got killed.

Bottom line is that the process is technically illegal. You are in the wrong. Sorry. Do it if you want, I can't stop you. But know that you are in the wrong.

This is somewhat over-simplified. I do study the subject. And yes, there is precedent in the field of intellectual theft. Ahmed, I'm sorry, but it appears you are jointly liable for every crime comitted with your application.

The only point at which you are not bound by the terms and conditions of the store is if you negotiate them away with Apple. Until such time YOU are liable.



Rich::
 
popnfresh said:
I have no problem with someone hacking anyone's DRM, even Apple's. DRM is the last refuge of corporate media greed.

No, the problem I have with Hymn/Playfair is that it plays right into Microsoft's hands. They're popping champagne corks in Redmond over this, because Microsoft now owns the only major DRM scheme that's still unbroken. They should have cracked WM9 before they went after Apple's Fairplay. The record companies will look upon Playfair as a big reason to embrace Windows Media Player and Microsoft's WM9 DRM. I hope everyone likes .WMV files, cuz we'll be seeing a lot more of them in the near future, imho.

Windows Media 9 isn't unbroken. In fact, it was broken before PlayFair was. If you ever went to download the original Playfair DRM cracker (the one that gave you raw AAC data you still couldn't play yet). The writer had another project in the same folder on his website. The project was a WMP9 cracker.
 
Stella said:
How would this work? Does this mean that if my Mac isn't connected to the internet I can't play my iTMS purchased music? If not, then how can Apple closing down the iTMS stop me playing such music?

i am not sure how apple would de-authorize your computer, but they have the legal ability to do it. it is plain and clear in the user agreement.
 
SiliconAddict said:
What theft?!?! Are you daft?!? If you purchased the music or the music file or whatever you are entitled to listen to the song.

And you can listen to the song, on 5 machines as AAC, or an infinite number if you convert it to MP3.

Cracking the DRM is
NOT theft. Its breaking a contractual agreement that you made with Apple when you signed up for iTMS.

It may not technically be "theft", but it is breaking the law all the same.

I consider this to be in the same vain as Microsoft and just about everyone else's EULA. Screw the fine print.

I hope you don't have the same attitude when you buy a house, or sign an employment contract.

If I crack the encryption and use it to play music on MY terms without redistributing it who gives a crap.

Apple, among others.

If you want to "Fight the Power", then don't play their game. It's that simple. It's not "Fighting the Power" to agree to their terms, and then break that agreement. If you are really committed to the cause, don't buy DRMed music.

As for Fair Use, I don't see anywhere in the law that says you have a legal right to an exact reproduction of a work (except explicitly in the case of software backups). I think that the ability to make MP3s, and to burn CDs, would count as meeting the requirements of Fair Use. I'd be interested in seeing what other folks think about this point, as it seems pretty crucial to me.
 
areyouwishing said:
To the people that think Apple's DRM isn't fair...

WHAT PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS HAVE YOU RUN INTO?

So far the only ones I have heard is...

1. Non-Ipod support
2. Soundbridge Player type support

Other than those 2 issues, what limitations have you actually run into? Where they didn't allow you to do something.

Here's a limitation:
Occasionally, although I don't own a car- I drive places!! I have to rent a car with a (gasp) cd player and no other hook in-no cassette, no aux in- and I'm not buying an iTrip coz I researched/heard they suck. So what am I left with- making a playlist and then burning that to multiple cds. Now with summer coming up, I'm going to be renting cars to get the hell out of NYC on the weekends, so what if I want to make a bunch of mixes? I have to keep track of how many times I have put that song on a mix so I don't go over the limit. Not to mention I have been downloading from iTMS since day 1- I sure as hell don't know how many mixes I've made for myself or others-(we have all been doing this since we were pre-teens-making mixes for friends etc. so don't give me anything about well there you go that's illegal. Pls. spare me that bs) That's where it sucks. I have burned and re-imported my iTMS songs as mp3's for archiving-just in case I go over- It's SO time consuming and wasteful. I don't want to strip the DRM so I can go and throw them up to a p2p or anything like that, but I would like to listen to music that I purchase as many times and ways as I want. Alas, until there is more feedback on hymn, I will keep burning and re-importing.
 
Stella said:
How would this work? Does this mean that if my Mac isn't connected to the internet I can't play my iTMS purchased music? If not, then how can Apple closing down the iTMS stop me playing such music?

If you try to play it on a computer that's not already authorized, it goes out to the Internet and connects to Apple's machines. If Apple's machines says you've authorized 5 machines, iTunes replies back saying you've got too many machines authorized. I suppose if iTunes doesn't hear anything back, it'll simply time out and not give you authorization to play the music. So it's probably not a problem as long as the machine you're using now doesn't change ever again (how likely is that?) but I think as soon as the files get played on a new machine, it phones home to Apple to check in. At least that's what I've deduced from my interactions with it.

If in 5 years Microsoft has taken over the music business and Apple has been marginalized once again, it's a very real possibility that iTunes won't have anywhere to call, making this scenario a definite possibility.

I had a similar experience a few months ago. A few years ago, there was a Pepsi/Mountain Dew promotion offering free song downloads that worked through Windows Media Player. All songs had to be authorized before they played and you could only use it on the machine that was authorized. I ended up getting about 10 songs from it and found them again 3 months ago when I went to backup my old computer in preparation to transfer everything to a new computer. I had reformatted that Windows machine since I had downloaded the files so they immediately tried to authorize the music again. Well, with no machine to connect to, it timed out and said it wasn't allowed to play.

With several hundred dollars already spent in iTMS music, I'd hate to lose all that music just because Jobs makes a bad business decision or something stupid like that.
 
slughead said:
I decided that iTMS was worth it--the convenience and cost seemed a worthy trade off for a hassle when burning and limited interoperability.

Apple explained all the things I could and could not do, and I accepted that and bought a few songs based on THOSE rules--10 burns, 3 computers.

What they didn't tell me is that they would later change what I can't do with it after I bought it.

[...]

Ever hear the old saying "what's mine is mine" ? Well those were my rights, and they took them. No matter what they gave me in return, they still took from me without asking.

I haven't read the iTMS EULA in detail, but I would be willing to bet that the right to change terms unilaterally was in the original agreement, so you did agree to let Apple make that change. That's the way contracts work.
 
What we really need is a way for "fair use" to be enforced automatically, so you can make any proper use of music you buy, without ever having to deal with DRM issues, yet you can't make any improper use of music you buy. Even if everyone agreed on the fair use privileges, this is not technically possible. One simple example: you can play a tune for your friend in your living room but you can't charge money to let strangers listen to it at a paid event. Your computer can't tell the difference, so it can't be enforced.

So back to reality.

If Apple could sell you a tune with a serial number identifying your purchase watermarked into the music, and then apply no other restrictions, things would be a lot simpler. It's got a "big brother is watching you" problem, but I'd still prefer to be trusted to stick to fair uses, rather than have arbitrary limits imposed on me within my own home.

Of course, somebody would break the watermarking system, and some people would steal music anyway, so I guess this solution isn't destined to be reality either!
 
Tulse said:
I haven't read the iTMS EULA in detail, but I would be willing to bet that the right to change terms unilaterally was in the original agreement, so you did agree to let Apple make that change. That's the way contracts work.

Now that I would like to see defended in court. I don't know about US law that much but I know that in the EU a unilateral change of contract is only acceptable if the other party can terminate the contract because of it without any drawbacks on previously made purchases under the old contract. Meaning, if Apple had an iTMS in say Germany and changed the DRM not only for newly purchased music but only for the old music I could sue Apple for a full refund for any purchase made in the iTMS before because changing contracts on previously purchased items is illegal and Apple would get very seriously fined for violating german contract laws.
Regards,

Ahmed
 
AhmedFaisal said:
The point is that it seems to be a symptom that people defend others (government, corporations, lawyers etc.) taking away their rights/benefits for their own profit and find that the greatest thing in the world. It happens with DRM, it happens with privacy it happens with TCPA it happens with so many things I can't even list them. And people go out on the street supporting it! You know I am from Germany and I could never fathom why people would support some screaming maggot like Big A. Seeing people like Gus who argue against their own constitutional rights is very educating in that respect.

Americans have a difficult time seeing outside the boundaries defined by capitalism. Real human values are secondary to profit in this part of the world. America is a country comprised of exceptionally gluttunous and ignorant people. :)

It's okay, I'm allowed to say such things, I'm an American. :D
 
Simple fix

gemio17 said:
Here's a limitation:
Occasionally, although I don't own a car- I drive places!! I have to rent a car with a (gasp) cd player and no other hook in-no cassette, no aux in- and I'm not buying an iTrip coz I researched/heard they suck. So what am I left with- making a playlist and then burning that to multiple cds. Now with summer coming up, I'm going to be renting cars to get the hell out of NYC on the weekends, so what if I want to make a bunch of mixes? I have to keep track of how many times I have put that song on a mix so I don't go over the limit. Not to mention I have been downloading from iTMS since day 1- I sure as hell don't know how many mixes I've made for myself or others-(we have all been doing this since we were pre-teens-making mixes for friends etc. so don't give me anything about well there you go that's illegal. Pls. spare me that bs) That's where it sucks. I have burned and re-imported my iTMS songs as mp3's for archiving-just in case I go over- It's SO time consuming and wasteful. I don't want to strip the DRM so I can go and throw them up to a p2p or anything like that, but I would like to listen to music that I purchase as many times and ways as I want. Alas, until there is more feedback on hymn, I will keep burning and re-importing.

1. Buy a pair of little speakers and plug it into the ipod

2. Most card CD plays mp3 file make rip the song to CD re-rip to mp3 make as many cd as you want.

3. Get a itrip or something like

Get over it...you people are so spoil, i want it,i want iti want iti want iti want iti want iti want it whaaaaaaa is pathetic
 
crazytom said:
CD's scratch and there are some that update their computer every year (but I guess you can deauthorize a computer, can't you?).

Not sure if this applies to Windows, but on my iMac and Powerbook if I copy the home directory it works fine on a new machine. Least it did the last time I had to backup my powerbook before I sent it off.
 
ryanw said:
Are you serious? They made it so you can't use your purchased files in iPhoto or iMovie? Not even iLife 04 stuff?? Jeash..... this sux.. why not just go back to buying CDs from amazon.com?

Simple quicktime update and it's fine. RTFA people.
 
bpd115 said:
Then Buy the CD.

Buy the CD.

Buy the CD.

iTunes was not ment to be used for those instances you've run into...unfortunately iTunes doesn't suite your particular needs at this time. Find an alternative legal way until it does.

I for one don't want to buy any more cds-i'm done, no more room, I'm not going to pay 17$ for one song- they're too overpriced in the store- don't you get that? A smidgen of intelligence in your response may be better received-the way you have put it is just annoying....That said, I just made some money selling my old cd's on half.com, then with the profits, I bought blank cds to burn my iTMS music on to re-import them as mp3's....and then wastefully stack them up probably never to be used again....ah well. At least the jewel cases are gone- I really have no use for the cover art, liner notes, words for the songs (I'll make 'em up anyway) or a large mound of plastic monstrosity taking up valuable space in my bookshelf.
 
dcentity2000 said:
This is somewhat over-simplified. I do study the subject. And yes, there is precedent in the field of intellectual theft. Ahmed, I'm sorry, but it appears you are jointly liable for every crime comitted with your application.

The only point at which you are not bound by the terms and conditions of the store is if you negotiate them away with Apple. Until such time YOU are liable.

And you are liable for not knowing how to disable BOLD text :D and obviously for your lack of reading comprehension :D I didn't create PlayFair, I wish I did but I lack the programming skills. But I'd love to buy the guys behind it a beer one of these days :cool:
Cheers,

Ahmed
 
dcentity2000 said:
The authors of Fair Play don't actually do the decoding but they ARE accessoried to it, guilty of incitement, aiding and abetting all contractual breaches.

Your whole post was made true by the DMCA. Before that you could draw lines on your CDs, crack programs, and do whatever you wanted, so long as you did not pirate.

Personally, I think the DMCA is unconstitutional--or most certainly against the spirit of property rights given by the constitution.

There is no victim when someone cracks the DRM on tracks they already own. That act alone is not immoral, and I would argue in most cases it isn't even linked to piracy in any way so as to imply causation.

If a company wants to make its products useless by trying to limit what you can do, that's one thing, but making you a criminal for doing what you want with your own property is another.

With itunes it's a slightly different case, in that the EULA stated that they can screw you over at any time, and you had to agree to that to begin with. But with CDs and DVD players, you didn't agree to anything, and yet the DMCA allows them to still have control over the actions you perform with the product.

However, I'm pretty sure the constitution makes that agreement illegal. As with many rights, the right to property is impossible to "sign away." That's why people can sue doctors after they sign wavers. That's also why contractual agreements with minors are unenforceable without parental consent.

I don't pirate, and it's not anybody's business WHAT I do until I DO pirate. Piracy is wrong, using products you've previously purchased is not.
 
AhmedFaisal said:
Now that I would like to see defended in court. I don't know about US law that much but I know that in the EU a unilateral change of contract is only acceptable if the other party can terminate the contract because of it without any drawbacks on previously made purchases under the old contract. Meaning, if Apple had an iTMS in say Germany and changed the DRM not only for newly purchased music but only for the old music I could sue Apple for a full refund for any purchase made in the iTMS before because changing contracts on previously purchased items is illegal and Apple would get very seriously fined for violating german contract laws.
Regards,

Ahmed

EU contract law states that upon purchasing a track from the ITMS you have made an offer which Apple has accepted, subject to implied and material terms and conditions, both effective subject to intention (see the rather ancient but still effective case of Carbollic Smoke Ball ;) ). Terms can only be altered through two way negotiation and counter offer which does not happen here. UK domestic law does offer some protection given that the terms are pre-written, but only to the effect of being able to return the goods and since these goods devaluate from the outset even that does not operate.

Again: beach of contract or accessory to breach are both serious offences; too small in the case of de-authorising 3 MP3s, huge if you aided in the actions in relation to several hundred.

Apple's losses could run into huge figures through loss of revenue through future contracts.

EU law in this matter overrides German domestic legislation and besides the contracts are technically formed in the US so German domestic leg is kinda pointless...



Rich::
 
AhmedFaisal said:
And you are liable for not knowing how to disable BOLD text :D and obviously for your lack of reading comprehension :D I didn't create PlayFair, I wish I did but I lack the programming skills. But I'd love to buy the guys behind it a beer one of these days :cool:
Cheers,

Ahmed

Oh, soz, thought you were somehow involved - my apologies!

ps. Bold stands out more ;)



Rich::
 
frozenstar said:
Americans have a difficult time seeing outside the boundaries defined by capitalism. Real human values are secondary to profit in this part of the world. America is a country comprised of exceptionally gluttunous and ignorant people. :)

It's okay, I'm allowed to say such things, I'm an American. :D

TOPIC: PlayFair


not politics. no need for the thread to be wastelanded.
 
WHAT ABOUT THE ARTISTS?!?!?

I've been reading all your posts and am amazed that I haven't read anyone defending the actual PEOPLE that create this music. These are the ones (OK not all of them) that have dedicated thier lives to making music...playing s*%tty gigs in hell holes half their lives until one day a record company finally says..."OK, I'll take a shot on you"...they dump millions of dollars into promoting the band and then people decide when they buy a piece of plastic or a digital file that "THE MUSIC'S MINE...I OWN IT!!, I'll do whatever I want with it".

Do any of you realize that artists have to pay thier record company back for all of the money thay spend on recording the record? The band has to pay the record company back 50% the cost of making a video?? Do you know it costs about $200,000.00 just to work a record to radio so it will be heard? Where do you all think this money comes from? ALBUM SALES!! And the artist doesn't see a cent of royalties until these costs are recouped.

Yes record compainies suck, but it's not just the record companies that get hurt when people stop RESPECTING THE MUSIC!!.

Doc
 
dcentity2000 said:
EU contract law states that upon purchasing a track from the ITMS you have made an offer which Apple has accepted, subject to implied and material terms and conditions, both effective subject to intention (see the rather ancient but still effective case of Carbollic Smoke Ball ;) ). Terms can only be altered through two way negotiation and counter offer which does not happen here. UK domestic law does offer some protection given that the terms are pre-written, but only to the effect of being able to return the goods and since these goods devaluate from the outset even that does not operate.

Again: beach of contract or accessory to breach are both serious offences; too small in the case of de-authorising 3 MP3s, huge if you aided in the actions in relation to several hundred.

Apple's losses could run into huge figures through loss of revenue through future contracts.

EU law in this matter overrides German domestic legislation and besides the contracts are technically formed in the US so German domestic leg is kinda pointless...



Rich::

So the EU has explicit laws about the iTMS already, before it's even released in Europe. How interesting, tell me more.
 
Keep on topic and leave out the inflammatory comments and insults, folks.

People who continue will have posts deleted and/or receive a "time out".
 
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