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Please learn to spell, MacRumors writers.

mbnt

mbnt

macrumors member
Original poster
Oct 22, 2003
47
29
NYC Metro Area
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WildCowboy said:
Pretty sure that's not a spelling error, but point taken. ;)
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True, it's a grammar thing.

coffeemilktea said:
I don't, know, if, that's technically, correct, but it, feels like, there, are too, many, commas. o_O
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It is, I see way too many "professionals" do it and it's very sad. Anyone who actually paid attention in English class knows this.
 
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mbnt said:
True, it's a grammar thing.



It is, I see way too many "professionals" do it and it's very sad. Anyone who actually paid attention in English class knows this.
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As @WildCowboy correctly points out, this is more a matter of grammar than of spelling.

Nevertheless, I agree that it is a good idea to try to maintain, or uphold, standards of written and spoken English.
 
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Scepticalscribe said:
As @WildCowboy correctly points out, this is more a matter of grammar than of spelling.

Nevertheless, I agree that it is a good idea to try to maintain, or uphold, standards of written and spoken English.
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Couldn't agree more. I've noticed heaps recently, multiple in the Ventura 13.2.1 release notes article (or it may have been the beta notes, can't remember 100%).

I get that they want to get the articles for new releases out quickly, but I'd rather read a slightly later published article than one that felt rushed out.
 
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mbnt said:
Come on, people... it's city, state, rest of sentence.

Case in point: "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Is it so hard to throw a comma after North Carolina?! It doesn't even read right.

It should be "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Thank you.
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Could I get a reference to technical discussion of this point? I am interested and enjoy learning new grammar rules. I would have omitted the comma - how embarrassing.
 
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svenmany said:
Could I get a reference to technical discussion of this point? I am interested and enjoy learning new grammar rules. I would have omitted the comma - how embarrassing.
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I'm also interested in a reference.

"Apple closes local store" is correct, whereas "Apple closes local, store" is clearly incorrect.
"Apple closes Charlotte store" is correct, whereas "Apple closes Charlotte, store" is also clearly incorrect.
Why would "Apple closes Charlotte, North Carolina store" need an additional comma?
 
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For those that actually care...

How are commas used with place names? | MLA Style Center

Unless a place name is at the end of a sentence and followed by sentence-ending punctuation, whenever you list a city and a state or a city and a country, place commas around the state or the country. The rule applies even when the country or state name is abbreviated. These principles are...
style.mla.org style.mla.org
 
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Apple_Robert said:
For those that actually care...

How are commas used with place names? | MLA Style Center

Unless a place name is at the end of a sentence and followed by sentence-ending punctuation, whenever you list a city and a state or a city and a country, place commas around the state or the country. The rule applies even when the country or state name is abbreviated. These principles are...
style.mla.org style.mla.org
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Thanks! That seems pretty definitive.

It's unfortunate that the examples they gave have commas after the location that serve different purposes. Those commas would have been needed even if the state were missing.

They gave the example "I am from New Hope, Pennsylvania, a small town in the eastern part of the state." But,
even without "Pennsylvania", I would have put a comma. "I am from New Hope, a small town in the eastern part of the state." But I would not have put a comma in "I am from the New Hope store."

Logically, I see "Charlotte, North Carolina" as a single thing "X". So "Apple closes X store" doesn't need a comma. But, grammar ain't logic.
 
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I thought of another way to look at it, which could justify the additional comma (not to me).

Rephrase "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents" as "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, the city in North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents". It does turn it into a horrible sentence but does change the role of "North Carolina" in the sentence. Where "Charlotte, North Carolina" seems to be a proper noun, when written the other way, "North Carolina" becomes an adjective applied to Charlotte. I wonder if that interpretation gave rise to the rule.

I wonder if the rule generalizes. Are there other proper nouns that have internal commas and should a comma be placed after them before continuing the sentence? I would write "Sven, the drunkard, has stopped drinking". On the other hand, I would write "Sven, the Drunkard has stopped drinking". Maybe I'm wrong again.
 
Hold on, because this link’s examples make sense: https://style.mla.org/commas-place-names/

“I am from New Hope, Pennsylvania, a small town in the eastern part of the state”.
I would never write “I am from New Hope, Pennsylvania a small town in the eastern part of the state”. It clearly needs the comma.

But in this case: “Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents", the sentence sounds... wrong. Remove the state and you don’t need the comma: “Apple closes Charlotte store after multiple shooting incidents”. Add it and it still sounds weird: “Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Like @Nermal said:
Nermal said:
I'm also interested in a reference.

"Apple closes local store" is correct, whereas "Apple closes local, store" is clearly incorrect.
"Apple closes Charlotte store" is correct, whereas "Apple closes Charlotte, store" is also clearly incorrect.
Why would "Apple closes Charlotte, North Carolina store" need an additional comma?
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Adding a comma there sounds wrong to me, unlike the examples given by the link provided above.

But I’m not a native speaker, so I don’t know anything. I just want to know the correct answer, I’m a little intrigued.

svenmany said:
I thought of another way to look at it, which could justify the additional comma (not to me).

Rephrase "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents" as "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, the city in North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents". It does turn it into a horrible sentence but does change the role of "North Carolina" in the sentence. Where "Charlotte, North Carolina" seems to be a proper noun, when written the other way, "North Carolina" becomes an adjective applied to Charlotte. I wonder if that interpretation gave rise to the rule.

I wonder if the rule generalizes. Are there other proper nouns that have internal commas and should a comma be placed after them before continuing the sentence? I would write "Sven, the drunkard, has stopped drinking". On the other hand, I would write "Sven, the Drunkard has stopped drinking". Maybe I'm wrong again.
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I agree that this works, but the sentence looks absolutely hideous, in my opinion. I’d use dashes!

Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte - the city in North Carolina - Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents. I think that looks a little better. I don’t like the sentence at all, though. I wonder if that interpretation gave rise to the rule, too. Thoughts?

I might be wrong about everything, however.
 
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FeliApple said:
Hold on, because this link’s examples make sense: https://style.mla.org/commas-place-names/

“I am from New Hope, Pennsylvania, a small town in the eastern part of the state”.
I would never write “I am from New Hope, Pennsylvania a small town in the eastern part of the state”. It clearly needs the comma.

But in this case: “Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents", the sentence sounds... wrong. Remove the state and you don’t need the comma: “Apple closes Charlotte store after multiple shooting incidents”. Add it and it still sounds weird: “Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Like @Nermal said:

Adding a comma there sounds wrong to me, unlike the examples given by the link provided above.

But I’m not a native speaker, so I don’t know anything. I just want to know the correct answer, I’m a little intrigued.


I agree that this works, but the sentence looks absolutely hideous, in my opinion. I’d use dashes!

Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte - the city in North Carolina - Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents. I think that looks a little better. I don’t like the sentence at all, though. I wonder if that interpretation gave rise to the rule, too. Thoughts?

I might be wrong about everything, however.
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Maybe the reason having a comma after North Carolina bothers me is that a comma usually suggests a pause when reading the sentence. The comma between Charlotte and North Carolina don't suggest a pause; it is just the normal convention of separating the city from the state. The comma after the state serves no purpose; it's just a random rule.

Another member pointed me to Purdue's site. Rule number 9 on that page is pretty explicit and spot on. I'm still not sure I'm going to follow the rule. Heck, I've given up on "whom", "lie/lay", "it's I", and a bunch of other stuff that makes me sound like a pompous ass when I use them or correct someone.
 
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svenmany said:
Maybe the reason having a comma after North Carolina bothers me is that a comma usually suggests a pause when reading the sentence. The comma between Charlotte and North Carolina don't suggest a pause; it is just the normal convention of separating the city from the state. The comma after the state serves no purpose; it's just a random rule.

Another member pointed me to Purdue's site. Rule number 9 on that page is pretty explicit and spot on. I'm still not sure I'm going to follow the rule. Heck, I've given up on "whom", "lie/lay", "it's I", and a bunch of other stuff that makes me sound like a pompous ass when I use them or correct someone.
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I completely agree. I interpret a comma there as merely a pause, unlike, like you said, the rule separating the state from the city.

I checked Purdue’s site. Let me slightly tweak a sentence in the rule you mentioned:

“July 22, 1959, was a momentous day in his life. Who lives at the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, house?”

Compare this with:

“July 22, 1959, was a momentous day in his life. Who lives at the 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC house?”

That comma, in that specific example, sounds wrong to me. Always.

In this case I will just ignore the rule. I will never - not naturally, anyway - use a comma there. Regardless of how wrong I may be. And should I force myself to do it, the end result will not change: I will proofread what I wrote... and remove the comma. Is it grammatically incorrect? Yes, perhaps, but I will disregard the rule this time, like you. It just sounds wrong. I’m still unsure as to whether the rule applies to this specific example, but even if it did, I’ll disregard it.
 
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svenmany said:
I'm still not sure I'm going to follow the rule.
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FeliApple said:
In this case I will just ignore the rule.
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I'd say that when not writing for readers for whom (ha) grammar really matters, making sure one's message is clearly expressed and easily understood is much more important than rigid adherence to grammar rules that often vary by culture and context. In other words, "To boldly go..." is fine as a TV show tagline. Much better than "To go with bold intentions where no resident of Earth has gone in previous eras."
 
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satchmo said:
Perhaps, the sentence just requires some rearranging:

"After Multiple Shooting Incidents, Apple Permanently Closes Store in Charlotte, North Carolina."
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I like it because it makes the sentence visually more appealing. It does change the meaning a bit. The original sentence has "Charlotte, North Carolina" as an adjective applied to "Store". This new sentence uses "Charlotte, North Carolina" to describe where the store was closed. I guess, since stores don't usually move around, there's no confusion. :)
 
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annk said:
I am a big fan of correct comma usage and enjoy comma discussions (all hail Mary Norris, the comma queen of the New Yorker.)

BTW, it's not a grammar point, it's actually a punctuation issue. :cool: There are no grammatical issues involved here.
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On this topic, I would also recommend the brilliant book by British author Lynn Truss entitled "Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach To Punctuation".
 
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