Please learn to spell, MacRumors writers.

[Madonepro]

I am a big fan of correct comma usage and enjoy comma discussions (all hail Mary Norris, the comma queen of the New Yorker.)

BTW, it's not a grammar point, it's actually a punctuation issue. There are no grammatical issues involved here.

Not correct.
In linguistics, the grammar of a natural language is its set of structural constraints on speakers' or writers' composition of clauses, phrases, and words, which are bonded with punctuation.
Punctuation is therefore, as subset of grammar.

 

[Starfia]

It should be "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

"[Place] store" is a phrase, where [place] serves as an adjective, and "store" is obviously a noun. ("Our Columbia retreat," "Bill's California home," "the Ontario location.")

Grammatically, this structure is the same as that of any "adjective-noun" phrase ("yellow hydrant," "cool dog," "immense shame").

There's no situation in which it would ever be appropriate to comma-separate the adjective and the noun ("I checked out that yellow, hydrant", "what a cool, dog", "it was truly an immense, shame").

If [place] is comma-separated for the purpose of indicating that it's one place within another ("Charlotte, North Carolina"), that use of the comma is denotational rather than grammatical and shouldn't invoke a separate grammatical comma afterward. Typing "Apple Permanently Closes Clarlotte, North Carolina, Store…" would be like typing "we'll vacation at our Columbia, retreat," "I met her at Bill's California, home," or "you should invest in the Ontario, location"). I've never seen any proper headline do this with any location, even with a comma-separated place-within-another-place.

For those that actually care...

How are commas used with place names? | MLA Style Center

Unless a place name is at the end of a sentence and followed by sentence-ending punctuation, whenever you list a city and a state or a city and a country, place commas around the state or the country. The rule applies even when the country or state name is abbreviated. These principles are...

style.mla.org

This column's examples are correct, but those are all situations in which you would finish the sentence or use a comma following the place name anyway, even if the place-within-a-place were replaced with just the name of a place. The column doesn't include any examples involving that adjective-noun-type phrase, or appear to address that concept.

 

[ILoveCalvinCool]

I haven't read the comments, but I hope that someone has pointed out that this is not a matter of grammar or spelling. It is a matter of style. The comma after the state is neither correct nor incorrect, other than in reference to a style guide, like the Chicago or AMA manuals of style. Comma placement in general is often not a matter of grammar.

 

[Starfia]

I haven't read the comments, but I hope that someone has pointed out that this is not a matter of grammar or spelling. It is a matter of style. The comma after the state is neither correct nor incorrect, other than in reference to a style guide, like the Chicago or AMA manuals of style. Comma placement in general is often not a matter of grammar.

ILove – have you read my comment (immediately preceding yours)? Sometimes comma appropriateness varies by style, but this seems a case in which grammar plays about as heavily into the question as it ever would.

 

[svenmany]

Just thought I'd share with my grammar friends:

After tonight's TV watching, I've come to realize that "it don't" no longer sounds wrong to me. It's hard not to love every line of the John McGinley in "Stan Against Evil".

 

[annk]

I haven't read the comments, but I hope that someone has pointed out that this is not a matter of grammar or spelling. It is a matter of style. The comma after the state is neither correct nor incorrect, other than in reference to a style guide, like the Chicago or AMA manuals of style. Comma placement in general is often not a matter of grammar.

Yes, I pointed it out. It's not only a matter of style, though (although style certainly plays into it, I often work with the different style manuals so I get what you're saying). It's often also a matter of clarity or just how specific a writer wants to be.

• The panda eats shoots and leaves.
• The panda eats, shoots and leaves (or The panda eats, shoots, and leaves).

But not grammar, you're correct there

 

[svenmany]

From

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar

Outside linguistics, the term grammar is often used in a rather different sense. It may be used more broadly to include conventions of spelling and punctuation, ...

Formal grammars, in my field, should communicate unambiguous meaning. In that sense, certain uses of punctuation would be considered part of grammar.

 

[phrehdd]

Come on, people... it's city, state, rest of sentence.

Case in point: "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Is it so hard to throw a comma after North Carolina?! It doesn't even read right.

It should be "Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

Thank you.

Interesting.

 

[phrehdd]

Yes, I pointed it out. It's not only a matter of style, though (although style certainly plays into it, I often work with the different style manuals so I get what you're saying). It's often also a matter of clarity or just how specific a writer wants to be.

• The panda eats shoots and leaves.
• The panda eats, shoots and leaves (or The panda eats, shoots, and leaves).

But not grammar, you're correct there

I gather people have different takes on grammar and style. The old student book "Elements of Style," for example, was very keen on the proper use of grammar. I recall many years ago that when dealing with abstracts, style or format came before the proper use of grammar. Manuals, however, never were a challenge for engaging in the proper use of grammar but more about how to communicate to the intended audience.

 

[BeatCrazy]

The real problem here is that MacRumors writers should be using sentence case (not title case) for their articles. Especially because the titles are written as complete sentences.

Apple permanently closes North Carolina store after multiple shooting incidents​

Apple always uses sentence case in their titles and article headlines: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/

 

[gk_brown]

Part of the problem is that headlines often use abbreviated forms. So to me, this:

"Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

reads like:

Apple permanently closes:

• Charlotte
• North Carolina
• Store

after multiple shooting incidents.

As @BeatCrazy pointed out, losing the capitalization might help it read better with the comma:

"Apple permanently closes Charlotte, North Carolina, store after multiple shooting incidents"

 

[phrehdd]

Part of the problem is that headlines often use abbreviated forms. So to me, this:

"Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina, Store After Multiple Shooting Incidents"

reads like:



As @BeatCrazy pointed out, losing the capitalization might help it read better with the comma:

"Apple permanently closes Charlotte, North Carolina, store after multiple shooting incidents"

The second comma can be used but is not necessary.

 

[MacHumors]

Apple Permanently Closes Charlotte, North Carolina Store, After Multiple Shooting Incidents.

 

[FeliApple]

If something is confusing, just phrase it better, right?

“Apple closes its store in Charlotte, North Carolina, after multiple shooting incidents”.

Change the sentence and there’s absolute clarity on whether the title is right or wrong.

 

[phrehdd]

If something is confusing, just phrase it better, right?

“Apple closes its store in Charlotte, North Carolina, after multiple shooting incidents”.

Change the sentence and there’s absolute clarity on whether the title is right or wrong.

Skip the second comma.

 

[scrl]

And while we're at it, can we stop referring to "London, England" and "Paris, France"? Both are world cities, and need no qualification*.

The American habit of attaching a country name to the end of a "foreign" city implicitly reduces an entire sovereign nation to the semantic level of a US state, which could be insulting to that country.

[*And yes, I know there are other Londons and Parii; you may qualify them as "London, Kentucky" and "Paris, Arkansas" if you wish to distinguish them from the originals.]

 

[svenmany]

And while we're at it, can we stop referring to "London, England" and "Paris, France"? Both are world cities, and need no qualification*.

The American habit of attaching a country name to the end of a "foreign" city implicitly reduces an entire sovereign nation to the semantic level of a US state, which could be insulting to that country.

[*And yes, I know there are other Londons and Parii; you may qualify them as "London, Kentucky" and "Paris, Arkansas" if you wish to distinguish them from the originals.]

I'm not sure where one should draw the line - just how well known a city has to be before you drop the county. You would also have to evaluate the age and education of the audience.

It's astonishing what some people don't know. Remind me where "Dhaka" is again? I wonder who would be pissed if someone added "Bangladesh" after it. Perhaps someone living in Bangladesh would, since it's their capital and the 9th most populous city in the world. I, personally, would appreciate the qualification.

The habit probably comes from pre-internet days, when people were mostly talking to others in their own country. I do wonder if this is just an American habit, or a habit in other countries, as well. Heck, when I encounter that pattern, I don't just assume the writer is an American citizen.

 

[scrl]

It's a very good point, and certainly a matter of judgement rather than rules.

I do think this is more of an American habit than anywhere else, and I can report that to non-American ears it is the subject of gentle mocking. I think the "City, State" habit (which no other nationality I know uses) simply gets mapped onto "City, Country", which is what creates the *possibility* of coming across as a bit crass or patronising.

PS> I wouldn't have been able to remember where Dhaka was, and would have to have a quick Google! But I'd regard that as my failing, not a failing on the part of the writer, since it is clearly a "world" city.

Simon (from the city of Cambridge, the original one in England, not the upstart newcomer in Massachusetts ;-) )

 

[svenmany]

It's a very good point, and certainly a matter of judgement rather than rules.

I do think this is more of an American habit than anywhere else, and I can report that to non-American ears it is the subject of gentle mocking. I think the "City, State" habit (which no other nationality I know uses) simply gets mapped onto "City, Country", which is what creates the *possibility* of coming across as a bit crass or patronising.

PS> I wouldn't have been able to remember where Dhaka was, and would have to have a quick Google! But I'd regard that as my failing, not a failing on the part of the writer, since it is clearly a "world" city.

Simon (from the city of Cambridge, the original one in England, not the upstart newcomer in Massachusetts ;-) )

I decided to do a quick check of some non-US newspaper. I went to https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada and found, at the top of the front page, "Schools in Shannon, Que., closed due to PSAC strike". So, the "City, XXX" approach is common there. But, Canada is a very big country with well-known named divisions, like the US.

 

[scrl]

The test we should do is to try is searching some European newspapers and see if they ever say "Berlin, Germany" or "Brest, France" or "Copenhagen, Denmark". Or if you ever see "Shanghai, China" in a British paper. I don't think we would. It's definitely an American (and Canadian!) format which, when applied to the rest of the world, has the effect I described.

 

[akash.nu]

.
I do wonder if this is just an American habit, or a habit in other countries, as well. Heck, when I encounter that pattern, I don't just assume the writer is an American citizen.

I’m not in the USA and in fact I live in London but I always add the place and then the country to avoid any ambiguity while posting pictures in the photography forum.

 

[phrehdd]

The test we should do is to try is searching some European newspapers and see if they ever say "Berlin, Germany" or "Brest, France" or "Copenhagen, Denmark". Or if you ever see "Shanghai, China" in a British paper. I don't think we would. It's definitely an American (and Canadian!) format which, when applied to the rest of the world, has the effect I described.

Charlotte North Carolina vs Charlotte, North Carolina is very telling on why a comma might make sense in some instances. - Some might add a comma after North Carolina as well.

 

[svenmany]

The test we should do is to try is searching some European newspapers and see if they ever say "Berlin, Germany" or "Brest, France" or "Copenhagen, Denmark". Or if you ever see "Shanghai, China" in a British paper. I don't think we would. It's definitely an American (and Canadian!) format which, when applied to the rest of the world, has the effect I described.

There are two parts to your argument.

1 - Americans (and now Canadians) are unique in that they reference their own cities qualified with a named sections (e.g. states) of their country.

2 - Americans extended that behavior to foreign references because they had that habit with local references.

For 1, I did look for other examples, but Europeans referencing European cities is not one I'd look for. Rather, I would have to find single countries, with many named regions, where the citizens use those region names to qualify their own city names. I had language and paywall problems when looking up foreign newspapers. I suppose good candidates would be China, Mexico, and India; you gotta have a big country.

For 2, I think our pattern can be explained. The US and Canada are quite geographically isolated from the rest of the world. When our habits developed, we probably saw the world as "our continent and everything else". I guess, we kind of still do; you guys are so far away. It's kind of like, when you're way up in a spaceship, countries do look like little states.

An interesting question, which I'll leave up to the therapists to answer, is why some consider this useful pattern to be crass and patronizing. When I hear "Brest", I think of Belarus. (My grandmother was from there.) Adding the country really does help.

"Dudley!!! Can you believe that stinkin' American! Pass me another pint and join in the mockery."

"Easy there Nigel. Take a deep breath and consider their point of view. I think I'll have to call your mother."

 

[ILoveCalvinCool]

Simon (from the city of Cambridge, the original one in England, not the upstart newcomer in Massachusetts ;-) )

I went to college in Cambridge (Massachusetts) and it would never occur to me to think of England if someone mentioned Cambridge (UK) without context.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The test we should do is to try is searching some European newspapers and see if they ever say "Berlin, Germany" or "Brest, France" or "Copenhagen, Denmark". Or if you ever see "Shanghai, China" in a British paper. I don't think we would. It's definitely an American (and Canadian!) format which, when applied to the rest of the world, has the effect I described.

Well said - in general - and yes, to those of us from outside of the US, I agree with you that it is an irksome habit when referencing cities outside of the North American landmass (or, more precisely, the US)

I went to college in Cambridge (Massachusetts) and it would never occur to me to think of England if someone mentioned Cambridge (UK) without context.

Whereas when I read the proper noun Cambridge, I assume automatically that this describes - or, refers to - the ancient university town in England. This was the original, after all, after which any others were named.

Naturally, this makes a reference to Cambridge Mass very useful by way of distinction; this tells me that this is some other Cambridge, and where this other (newer) Cambridge is to be found.