Please talk me out of this!!!

[gopher]

Re: Please talk me out of this!!!

Originally posted by illumin8
I, like everyone here, am desperately waiting for the new 970s to hit the market. In the meantime, I am desperately trying to avoid being tempted by the new Wintel machines that are just begging me to buy them:

Get this:

* Dell Dimension 8300, 2.6 Ghz. PIV with Hyperthreading
* 800 Mhz. FSB!!!
* 256 MB PC3200 (DDR 400 Dual Channel!) SDRAM
* 30GB HD
* 64MB ATI All-In-Wonder 9000 Pro

For a total price of $669 after shipping and tax!

The nice thing about this is that it's the new Intel chipset which has two banks of two DDR400 slots, to give you a full 800 mhz. of memory bandwidth...

So tell me please, why should I wait until June 23rd when the 970s might or might not be ready, then plonk down 2 g's, when I can get the same memory bandwidth that the new 970s theoretically have, and about twice as many gigahertz for only $669?

Apple better do something quick or they will lose the last 3% of their market share...

What new desktop machine comes out today with ONLY 30 GB of hard disk space? Even the $799 eMac has 40 GB. And for $999 you get an eMac with 60 GB and a combo drive. Dell's just selling you something that you are going to upgrade anyway. Apple sells you the whole package.

 

[NavyIntel007]

Notice illumin8 hasn't posted in a while. Guess he realized he's been duped and doesn't want to admit it.

 

[Nutzoids]

PC vs. MAC

I have worked and continue to work as an IT professional. I work on Win 2000 Networks for a living as well as spend alot of time upgrading PCs. This is my job, and I love it. But it is something I am so tired of doing at home. If you were a dishwasher at work...would you go home and wash your dishes first thing? Most likely NO! at one time at home I had a network of over 6 PCs. I baught an IBook and sold all but 2 of my PCs. After June 23rd I will be picking me up a new IMac...Still hoping they upgread them as well. Personal Preferance comes into play here. I love PCs but I don't want them in my home any more! After i get my new IMac those last 2 are gone! Apple is the future....there is no denying that...just read these rumor sites. Apple forever!

 

[CubeHacker]

My god, some of you people are either really ill informed, or really ignorant. Reinstall Windows every 3 months? What kind of crazy person told you this? I've been running the same install of XP for 1.5 years, and its still running great, and the OS has yet to crash ONCE on me.

And XP can run on a P2 just fine. Sure, it might not be the most pleasant of experiences, but then neither is running OS X on a low end G3. Remember, the G3 was a P2 competitor, and the G4 was a P3 competitor.

Most of you aren't giving wintels enough credit. Sure, windows might not be flawless, but they are cheap, and fast, and run 95% of apps available, which is what most people care about. Maybe Macs are better, but are they really worth the 2x pricetag for half the performance?

 

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by DOACleric
My god, some of you people are either really ill informed, or really ignorant. Reinstall Windows every 3 months? What kind of crazy person told you this? I've been running the same install of XP for 1.5 years, and its still running great, and the OS has yet to crash ONCE on me.

And XP can run on a P2 just fine. Sure, it might not be the most pleasant of experiences, but then neither is running OS X on a low end G3. Remember, the G3 was a P2 competitor, and the G4 was a P3 competitor.

Most of you aren't giving wintels enough credit. Sure, windows might not be flawless, but they are cheap, and fast, and run 95% of apps available, which is what most people care about. Maybe Macs are better, but are they really worth the 2x pricetag for half the performance?

Well clearly you are ill-informed too. Twice the price for half the performance? Hardly... check the spec scores. And your "95% of apps" theory is stupid because although the programmers for these 95% of apps (not all being good mind you) don't code for the mac, there is usually 95% of the time an app that does exactly the same thing (and won't slow your computer to a crawl on start up).

 

[CubeHacker]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Well clearly you are ill-informed too. Twice the price for half the performance? Hardly... check the spec scores. And your "95% of apps" theory is stupid because although the programmers for these 95% of apps (not all being good mind you) don't code for the mac, there is usually 95% of the time an app that does exactly the same thing (and won't slow your computer to a crawl on start up).

Spec scores? How about using a real benchmark, like UT2k3, or Cinebench. A dual G4 1.4ghz powermac only has about the power of a 2.4ghz P4. Now, you compare the prices - $2,699 for the Powermac, compared to a $1000 Dell. Apples cheapest $799 eMac would be eatten alive by a $799 Dell.

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple and I plan on switching soon as well. But Apples prices/speeds are laughable compared to wintels, and i think we can all agree on that. I mean, would any of us really complain if Apple slashed its prices in half?

 

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by DOACleric
Spec scores? How about using a real benchmark, like UT2k3, or Cinebench. A dual G4 1.4ghz powermac only has about the power of a 2.4ghz P4. Now, you compare the prices - $2,699 for the Powermac, compared to a $1000 Dell. Apples cheapest $799 eMac would be eatten alive by a $799 Dell.

Don't get me wrong, I like Apple and I plan on switching soon as well. But Apples prices/speeds are laughable compared to wintels, and i think we can all agree on that. I mean, would any of us really complain if Apple slashed its prices in half?

Again, you read the score wrong. The dual Xeon 2.4 setup is twice as fast on the cinebench scores. I've never seen a Dell dual Xeon for $1000 but you can believe what you like.

Actually just priced a Dual 2.8 Ghz Xeon Dell server for $4,641. So how about Twice the performance for twice the price?

edit: I don't find Apple's prices laughable at all. It's a luxury computer. Mercedes aren't as fast as say a Ford Mustang GT but people still buy them in droves even though they are slower and cost more. Is that laughable? I think not.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Here's my 2 cents...

If all you want to do with the machine is render 3D animations (and I said render, not model). Go ahead, buy the Wintel box. It will be about 10% faster than a top-of-the-line Mac. And it's obviously much cheaper. But don't come crying to me when the problems start.

If you want to do anything else with it though, you'd be better off even with the current G4 PowerMacs. And that includes speed-wise. How long it takes you to get something done isn't only affected by processor speed. In fact, that's a very small part of the equation. Unless all you're doing is rendering...

 

[totally_fly]

Re: Re: Please talk me out of this!!!

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Notice illumin8 hasn't posted in a while. Guess he realized he's been duped and doesn't want to admit it.

What a hasty conclusion.

 

[DakotaGuy]

Re: Re: Re: Dude, I'm getting a Dell...

Originally posted by illumin8
Kind of amazing how some people can blow $3000 on a top of the line PowerMac with 1998 era technology yet $1000 on a PC with 2003 era technology is too much.

You can't be serious here...

This statement implies to me that Apple has gone nowhere since 1998. Also it says that a new Dual 1.42 runs no faster then a 350Mhz PII or a 233/266Mhz G3. No more memory, no better video cards, bus speed unchanged. 3-6 GB HD's. Before you make a statement like this you should match up 1998 era Mac or PC Specs against the new 1.42. I think you will see it is not 1998 tech. PC's have moved faster in speed areas, but new PowerMacs are A LOT (so much it is a joke) better then 1998 models of any computer.

 

[mattmack]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Notice illumin8 hasn't posted in a while. Guess he realized he's been duped and doesn't want to admit it.

No he probably started the threa intending to show the price differences between mac and pc. Trying to get peoples panties in a bunch

 

[DakotaGuy]

Originally posted by beatle888
hey im finally fed up. i say if the pc can keep up with your work flow and the mac cant. then DUMP the F***ing mac. today is IT. my next system WILL be a junky clunky PC with POWER. im tired of the mac not keeping up with the work flow. TIRED. now its reflecting on me. AE's wondering what the hell is taking so long to get the job done. its the damn mac. im constantly waiting for it to catch up with me.

Curious what type of Mac do you have that cannot keep up? I would think a new Dual 1.25 or 1.42 should allow you to get your work done in very decent time.

 

[beatle888]

nope it doesnt. and im talking about about a dual 1.25 in photoshop with a gig file and two gigs of ram. also indesign is slow in long documents with lots of graphics, but so is quark. see need more power....were not talking web graphics here.

 

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by beatle888
nope it doesnt. and im talking about about a dual 1.25 in photoshop with a gig file and two gigs of ram. also indesign is slow in long documents with lots of graphics, but so is quark. see need more power....were not talking web graphics here.

Ever thought that maybe that power doesn't exist yet? I mean you can always get a Cray if you really need it.

 

[beatle888]

well i believe that a nice althon dual system with loads of ram would be a relief compare to the 1.24 g4. im a mac user but im not blind to the facts.

 

[NavyIntel007]

Originally posted by beatle888
well i believe that a nice althon dual system with loads of ram would be a relief compare to the 1.24 g4. im a mac user but im not blind to the facts.

Can you cook me some eggs with that?

edit: what I meant to say is that I don't know if you've slept in the same room as one of those... but it's not exactly cold.

 

[mattmack]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Can you cook me some eggs with that?

edit: what I meant to say is that I don't know if you've slept in the same room as one of those... but it's not exactly cold.

lol that's true. My brother-in law has a 2.4 Ghz intel chip with a 9700 pro in it and about 3 dozen fans in it(sarcasm) and it still will freeze in Battlefield 1942 if iit cranks up the heat

 

[NavyIntel007]

Actually there are probably about 6 fans.

I remember my celeron 800 was loud. The fans were loud and the door on the side vibrated. Not only that but it made my room warm. I live in Miami, so warmth isn't a problem.

My point is sure their fast whatever, I'm not disputing that. But their is no reason for all the loud fans and large power requirements.

 

[beefstu01]

Yo guys, chill here-

Remember, that $600 Dell is not intended for the power user. It is intended for the mom and dad who want to write a few documents and send a few e-mails, not to use Blender, Maya, Reason, Live, or any of the thousands of processor sucking, graphic card straining programs. That's an introductory machine. Do you have any idea how many Word documents can be stored in a 30 GB hard drive?

Lemme tell you what I'm running this second. I've got myself this nice, old Dell Inspiron 7000 laptop. It boasts a 400 MHz Pentium II processor, 128 MB RAM, and runs RH Linux 8. It's snappy, everything opens, everything runs, everything is fine. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a PC. It works, it gets its jobs done, and sometimes faster than a Mac. Go check Bare Feats if you don't believe me.

The Mac is a great machine too. I myself am waiting anxiouslly to get my hands on an updated 15" Powerbook. The Mac does everything I need it too, and it looks good too. I've been born and bred on Macs- I started with an SE, then graduated to a IIci, and so on and so forth.

Anyway, that machine illumin8 got was a decent machine for a decent price. On top of that, he got a damn fine tech support package with it, one that sure as hell beats Apple's 90 days, eh boys? He's probably waiting for the 970 to make it to the mainstream, but in the mean time, that Pentium IV will do just fine sending e-mails, writing reports, surfing the web, chatting to friends, and playing some games.

Good purchase. Congradulations.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Here's my 3rd cent...

Originally posted by ZeeOwl
It will be about 10% faster than a top-of-the-line Mac. And it's obviously much cheaper.

Oops, mis-read the original post (sheepish grin). The above statement would be true with a 3 Ghz Pentium 4. With a 2.6 Ghz, the (raw number-crunching) speeds of the two machines would be about equal. Though the PC is still much cheaper.

 

[NavyIntel007]

It's still windows...

 

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by NavyIntel007
It's still windows...

That argument is getting weaker and weaker

I am about to build myself a kick arse wintel system:

Intel P4 3Ghz w/ 800Mhz FSB + Hyper-Threading (will be able to O/C to at least 3.5Ghz)
Thermaltake Xaser III case w/ 420W PSU
Thermaltake SubZero4G TEC (Thermo Electric Cooling)
Abit IC7-G Mother board
1GB OCZ DDR3500 434Mhz DDR RAM
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
120GB SATA150 hard disk
Gb-Ethernet
Pioneer 16x DVD
Plextor 24x BurnProof CD-RW
6.1 Sound

And all for around £1,500. This WILL (for raw speed) whip the dual 1.42Ghz G4 that costs approx. twice the price.

Now, I, like others, still love my Mac, but you just can't argue with this...unless you are a real Zealot

 

[job]

Originally posted by edesignuk
(Thermo Electric Cooling)

I can't wait until they start cooling PCs with liquid nitrogen.

btw, thats an odd DDR speed. I've heard of DDR3700, but DDR3500?

 

[edesignuk]

Originally posted by job
I can't wait until they start cooling PCs with liquid nitrogen.

btw, thats an odd DDR speed. I've heard of DDR3700, but DDR3500?

Well, the 'extreme' O/C'ers already are using water and nitrogen to get 4Ghz out of the 3Ghz chips. Very fasy, but a little OTT for my liking.

DDR3700 is out, but is a big expense for very little benifit, DDR3500 will be enough to handle any O/C that I can cool.

 

[ZeeOwl]

Power PC?

Originally posted by edesignuk
That argument is getting weaker and weaker

I am about to build myself a kick arse wintel system:

Intel P4 3Ghz w/ 800Mhz FSB + Hyper-Threading (will be able to O/C to at least 3.5Ghz)
Thermaltake Xaser III case w/ 420W PSU
Thermaltake SubZero4G TEC (Thermo Electric Cooling)
Abit IC7-G Mother board
1GB OCZ DDR3500 434Mhz DDR RAM
Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB
120GB SATA150 hard disk
Gb-Ethernet
Pioneer 16x DVD
Plextor 24x BurnProof CD-RW
6.1 Sound

And all for around £1,500. This WILL (for raw speed) whip the dual 1.42Ghz G4 that costs approx. twice the price.

Now, I, like others, still love my Mac, but you just can't argue with this...unless you are a real Zealot

Well, first of all, I would hardly call 10% faster "whipping". But then, everything is relative... As for twice the price, make that about 50% more.

In retort to the "It's still Windows" argument getting weaker, I think not. MicroSoft has recently announced that they will be releasing their newest Mac OS cloning attempt (Longhorn), which is apparently modelled on Jaguar (OS X 10.2). It will be ready in, drumroll... 2005! lmao Let's see, relying on Apple's track record, we poor Mac types should be running maybe 10.5 by then. If it's not 11.0. lol Which will make Longhorn look like XP as compared to Jaguar now. And I can just imagine the minimum system requirements for Longhorn:
8 GHz Pentium 5 with liquid nitrogen cooling system (lol, I love that post).
4 GiB of RAM.
128 MiB graphics card.
30 GB of hard-drive space and DVD-ROM drive for installation (comes on 4 DVDs).

Just as a reference for perspective, here's what I've got running Jaguar now:
350 Mhz PPC 750.
1 GiB of RAM (128 MiB is enough for Jaguar, but I use this system for rendering.).
32 MiB Radeon 7000.
80 GB hard drive (Jaguar uses up 2 GB).

For running Jaguar and mainstream apps, it's plenty fast. I could use more speed for rendering though. Never enough speed for that!

So I reinterate my original position. If all you want to do with the system is render, the Wintel box is a viable alternative to a PowerMac. If all you want to do is surf the Web, eMail and play Solitaire (and that is a sizeable chunk of the desktop market), a 400$ low-end PC is a viable alternative to an eMac or iMac FP. If you fall into any other category, you're
much better off with a Mac.