If you notice my breakdown, I only spent $700 and something on the PC; the extra $260 was for upgrades (1GB extra RAM, 120GB 8MB cache hard drive).
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Please talk me out of this!!!
- Thread starter illumin8
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This is plain and simple bullsh*t. You do not have to upgrade your PC, ever, if you don't want to. I could continue running on my AMD Athlon XP 1700 which I purchased over 18 months ago just fine. It clocks at 1466 mhz., 266 mhz. FSB, and 512 MB of PC2100 RAM. It is still a fast machine, with 4x 40GB hard drives in an IDE RAID 0 stripe.
I am a power user. I like to have one of the fastest machines around.
You made a comment earlier something like "try and install XP on your P2 and see how well it works". Well, for your information, I gave my friend an old Celeron 450 (same as a P2, just a little slower) with only 256 MB of RAM in it and it runs XP just great.
Sounds like a personal problem.
Ok, this is what I really take issue with. I just got the machine yesterday and I have to say, it is sweet! Works just as advertised. I ran SiSoft Sandra Benchmarks on it and these are some of the results (as a way of comparison):
RAM bandwidth (this is one of the best benchmarks):
PIV 2.6C w/ 800 mhz. FSB and 2x PC3200: 4503 MB/s
By comparison, a system with only 133 mhz. FSB can only pull around 1000 MB/s at theoretical maximum.
So trust me, Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer are not riding me all the way to the bank... I don't like supporting them, but what the hell, I got a machine that's arguably 4 times as fast as a PowerMac for 1/3rd the price.
i said the thing about installing XP on a P2. impressive. check back with me in a month. 
notice i said "enticed."
in your original post, you said talk me out of a $700 PC that's sweet, great, etc. etc. if you "had to" upgrade by spending $260, then you should have asked us to talk you out of a ~$1,000 PC.
"Ohh, look at this, a 2 door car is only $13,000... but i need a 4 door car, which is $17,000. but the car is only $13,000!! how can i pass it up?"
bad analogy? perhaps. but do you see my point?
notice i said "enticed."
in your original post, you said talk me out of a $700 PC that's sweet, great, etc. etc. if you "had to" upgrade by spending $260, then you should have asked us to talk you out of a ~$1,000 PC.
"Ohh, look at this, a 2 door car is only $13,000... but i need a 4 door car, which is $17,000. but the car is only $13,000!! how can i pass it up?"
bad analogy? perhaps. but do you see my point?
I haven't posted in a while because I thought this thread was dead, but now that I received the machine yesterday I just want to say that I still think I got a good deal.
I filled out the rebate form and mailed it in right away. It was actually really easy, just print a .PDF file, write your name and address on it, and mail it in with a copy of the packing slip.
This machine is a screamer! In case any of you are interested, this is what I'm getting on CPU benchmarks:
Dhrystone ALU : 7590 MIPS
Whetstone FPU: 2211/4907 MFLOPS
RAM Bandwidth: 4503 MB/s out of 6400 MB/s theoretical maximum (with dual channel enabled).
HD Bandwidth: 33480 kB/s (I am pushing closed to SCSI U160 10,000 RPM performance with this 8MB cache IDE drive!)
Not to mention the ATI Radeon 9800 that I got with this system is one of the fastest cards out there, only beat by the 9800 pro. This thing smokes on games as well. I got a 3dmark03 score of 4825 without overclocking the graphics card at all.
So sorry to dissapoint the player-haters on this message board, but I am happy with my new PC.
I'm still waiting patiently for the 23rd when hopefully some of these new features (dual channel DDR 400 memory) will rub off on the PowerMac and I'll be able to buy one to stick next to my new Dell.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dude, I'm getting a Dell...
This is what is really killing the Mac! The Mac should be able to smoke a PIV, even with only a G4 processor, if it weren't for the paltry FSB. Altivec kicks ass over SSE2 on the Intel, and if Apple can figure out a way to crank up the FSB (by going 970) the results will be different.
As it is, the FSB has been a big limitation on most PC platforms for some time now. When Pentium 100s were top of the line and the FSB was 100 mhz., there were no problems whatsoever. Memory was just as fast as CPU and you took no performance hit. Now that Moore's law has affected CPU speed the way it has, memory bandwidth has just not been able to keep up.
The Intel folks are starting to resolve these issues by upping the FSB speed and quad-pumping it. Now it is time for Apple to get their act in gear.
I mainly meant the bus speed, which has only seen an increase from 133 mhz. to 167 mhz. since 1998, where Intel has gone from 133 mhz. up to 800 mhz. in the same time.
This is what is really killing the Mac! The Mac should be able to smoke a PIV, even with only a G4 processor, if it weren't for the paltry FSB. Altivec kicks ass over SSE2 on the Intel, and if Apple can figure out a way to crank up the FSB (by going 970) the results will be different.
As it is, the FSB has been a big limitation on most PC platforms for some time now. When Pentium 100s were top of the line and the FSB was 100 mhz., there were no problems whatsoever. Memory was just as fast as CPU and you took no performance hit. Now that Moore's law has affected CPU speed the way it has, memory bandwidth has just not been able to keep up.
The Intel folks are starting to resolve these issues by upping the FSB speed and quad-pumping it. Now it is time for Apple to get their act in gear.
Originally posted by NavyIntel007
Actually, I read somewhere that if they make processors in excess of 3.5 Ghz, that the computer cases will have to be shielded like a microwave to protect us from the radiation! So not only will it be hot, loud and run up all your power bills but it will eventually kill you... YAAAY PC where do I buy one?!?!!?
hahah! This is pretty funny because in other threads people here are just dreaming that someday in about 2005 or so when the IBM PPC 980 comes out it will clock at 3.5-4ghz.
My god, you are such a zealot. 3.5 ghz on a PC - It might cook your nads! 3.5 ghz on a Mac - bring it on!
What a double standard we live... Can't you just look at the advantages and disadvantages of both platforms without bringing so much emotion into it?
Re: Re: Looks like women shopper math syndrome...
Actually, I think I got a pretty good deal for total price of $1049. I'd like to see you price even a single processor G4 1ghz. for anywhere close to that.
All I can say is that my Macs all stay totally usable well after the technology is 'obsolete'... My PowerMac G3 is my main system, and is plenty fast... I've upgraded the graphics card and hard drive over the years (bought it in 1999), and hell, if I have the money, Sonnet announced a 1GHZ G4 upgrade for my system... The relationship with a computer is different for different users... I'm very close to my Mac... I'm still running all the latest software, including OS X on my 4 year old G3!!! Thing about the Mac is, they're always like this... My old Performa runs 9.1.4 and works great! Use it mainly as a CD duplicator... Games? Buy a platform - you'll be much happier... Work? Buy a Mac... But then again, why not hold on for a couple of months? Makes a lot of sense... There's going to be a drastic (64-bit) leap on both sides of things... As for me - I'll hold out... I'm going to get a lot more use out of my Mac before I need to purchase another.. Anxious about Apple's next move. Can't do that as easily on a PC running windoze - but there's always Linux!
well, illumin8, congrats on your new purchase...
i'm going to use "we" here and i think it's true for many of us, but if not, apologies.
you *did* ask us to talk you out of buying a machine most of us (i think) decided to switch away from. and many of us probably realizes that apple, for hardware, is slower/more expensive, etc. etc. than pcs. despite that, many of us decided to make the switch. i think it's a bit contradictory of you to ask us not to get emotional/defensive about a decision each of us personally made.
i am happy that you got a computer you like for a price you like. but don't come here and ask for our opinions and require them not be emotionally charged/biased when you are, to a degree, trying to discredit our personal decision go with a mac, inspite of "deficiencies" you cannot (apparently) tolerate.
some of us don't care for a pc. that doesn't make us a zealot. if you want to brag about your new dell, do it at a dell fan club site. (is there such a place?)
i'm going to use "we" here and i think it's true for many of us, but if not, apologies.
you *did* ask us to talk you out of buying a machine most of us (i think) decided to switch away from. and many of us probably realizes that apple, for hardware, is slower/more expensive, etc. etc. than pcs. despite that, many of us decided to make the switch. i think it's a bit contradictory of you to ask us not to get emotional/defensive about a decision each of us personally made.
i am happy that you got a computer you like for a price you like. but don't come here and ask for our opinions and require them not be emotionally charged/biased when you are, to a degree, trying to discredit our personal decision go with a mac, inspite of "deficiencies" you cannot (apparently) tolerate.
some of us don't care for a pc. that doesn't make us a zealot. if you want to brag about your new dell, do it at a dell fan club site. (is there such a place?)
Re: Re: Looks like women shopper math syndrome...
Macs cost too much for what you get, that is all there is to it. The low end "deals" have cd-rom drive, the least amount of memory possible to run OS X, and not much else. Configure it in a way that you can play games and such, and you are looking at $1500 if you want a real warranty. Ludicrous.
Illumin8 - you made the proper choice. congrats! To get even close to those specs in a PowerMac you have to spend roughly $2,000.00
Hey now... it costs $350 to upgrade a eMac to 1GB of RAM. Don't spew the line of "buy it somewhere else" to me, it is still way overpriced. This is for a machine with a base price of $999.
Macs cost too much for what you get, that is all there is to it. The low end "deals" have cd-rom drive, the least amount of memory possible to run OS X, and not much else. Configure it in a way that you can play games and such, and you are looking at $1500 if you want a real warranty. Ludicrous.
Illumin8 - you made the proper choice. congrats! To get even close to those specs in a PowerMac you have to spend roughly $2,000.00
Re: Re: Re: Looks like women shopper math syndrome...
You're kidding right?
I upgraded my Blue & White G3 AND my flat-panel iMac to 1 GiB each about 6 months ago. Actually, I didn't upgrade them, I bought two complete matched sets of 1 GiB CL2 RAM for each of them (gave the original CL3 modules to my son, who's building himself a PowerMac from parts). Total cost: about 250$ for both machines.
You're kidding right?
I upgraded my Blue & White G3 AND my flat-panel iMac to 1 GiB each about 6 months ago. Actually, I didn't upgrade them, I bought two complete matched sets of 1 GiB CL2 RAM for each of them (gave the original CL3 modules to my son, who's building himself a PowerMac from parts). Total cost: about 250$ for both machines.
according to the online store, it does cost $350 to upgrade an eMac to 1 GB RAM. it's a common knowledge that Apple charges ridiculous amount for RAM upgrades - this in comparison to say, dell's upgrade online. (if you go to third party, the costs are the same, of course...)
i know you were a little incredulous but you should check relevant facts before you post, especially if it's disputing something someone else posted.
i know you were a little incredulous but you should check relevant facts before you post, especially if it's disputing something someone else posted.
Re: RAM upgrades.
Oh, maybe from the Apple Store. Does anybody actually ever buy RAM from the online store? My point was just that it doesn't cost 350$ to upgrade an eMac. Unless you absolutely want it to cost that much. I'm a die-hard Mac fanatic, but even I wouldn't pay that much for RAM. I mean, this is just memory. Every brand is basically the same. The computer is another story
Oh, maybe from the Apple Store. Does anybody actually ever buy RAM from the online store? My point was just that it doesn't cost 350$ to upgrade an eMac. Unless you absolutely want it to cost that much. I'm a die-hard Mac fanatic, but even I wouldn't pay that much for RAM. I mean, this is just memory. Every brand is basically the same. The computer is another story
Sorry, I don't mean to brag. I seriously would like to switch if the Mac hardware can become faster. I suffer from what most people might call "OS envy"
Anyway, the majority of you have been very helpful, and I too am excited to see Apple possibly bridge the gap on June 23rd and hopefully I'll be able to buy a brand new PowerMac or updated 15" PowerBook so I can really use both side by side and see which one works better for me.
Also, I just want to make it clear that I'm not discrediting your decision to use whatever works best for you. If you find that a Mac is the best computing environment for you to get work done, I can totally respect that.
I guess I just need to realize that most people here have more emotional reasons that they like their computer than logical ones. Anyway, I'm not trying to offend anyone and I appreciate the input everyone has given.
If you read back farther in this thread you'll see I really started it to highlight how far Apple has fallen behind. I'm not some kind of Dell fanboy, as a matter of fact I usually build my own PCs. I'm just hoping that Apple can come out with a machine that will fit my needs sooner rather than later, and that would be great if it was close to the speed of an Intel based machine, but with a nice useable OS like OS X.
Thanks everyone. No hard feelings. We can let this thread die if you want to...
A very cordial close. ThanksOriginally posted by illumin8
Thanks everyone. No hard feelings. We can let this thread die if you want to...