Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[Ethosik]

Neat.

So, you ever get frustrated by builds taking several minutes and test suites running for half hours?

If your answer is "yes", you are probably losing money and don't know it.
If your answer is "no", you are probably losing money and don't know it (or your app is a simple 10KLOC one-man project).

Well I won't lie. I am a solo developer working on some games for iOS and Windows/macOS. Most businesses usually have a dedicated compiling station for very large projects. What about apps like Procreate? Garageband? Microsoft Office? While not as feature complete as some desktop programs, they were all developed with current Mac hardware.

Do you know what I do when I build or let me tests run? Get something to drink, go to the restroom, take a 15 minute break, go to lunch, or let it run at the end of the day when I am done working and check the results tomorrow. If I am still at work, I use that time for programming the next build, or going through my planner.

Why on Earth would you use an iOS device as a developer workstation and/or build server?

Just kill the Mac already and port the toolchain to Windows and Unices.

I agree with that. I would much rather them allow development on Windows instead of iOS. Mostly because Visual Studio on Windows + Resharper is just so good.

 

[Abazigal]

@LordVic This will be my last response before I hit the sack (its past midnight here in Singapore), so subsequent replies will have to wait till tomorrow.

And to your point about being too reliant on the iPhone, that’s why Apple is investing in wearables, which (I believe) they will eventually position as the natural successor to the iPhone, when sales start to stagnate and even fall.

Certainly makes more sense than to double down on the Mac, if you ask me.

Night all (or whatever time it is over there). It’s been nice debating with all of you, even when it’s clear we don’t all always agree on things. See what can be achieved when people aren’t raving and ranting their heads off?

 

[LordVic]

So you are telling me that Apple needs to copy the management style of other companies far less successful than themselves?

you mean,wildly billion dollar companies that have been succesful for longer than Apple has been around? Sure.

you're doing the exact same thing I accused you of in the last post. you're looking at the profit margins / revenue numbers and assuming that if they're doing that well, they must be 100% right.

that's foolish. the Backstreet boys were the #1 selling boy band of the 90's. Nobody accused them of being fantastic musicians or of having a big long future. (Not saying this is analogous to Apple, just an example that revenu/profit as some proof of quality is a fools opinion)

Apple is also NOT the worlds largest company. Stop repeating this nonsense. in 2017 apple was 9th for Revenues:

1. WalMart Stores (US) - $485.8bn
2. State Grid (China) - $315.1bn
3. Sinopec (China) - $267.5bn
4. China Natural Petroleum (China) - $262.6bn
5. Toyota Motor (Japan) - $254.7bn
6. Volkswagen (Germany) - $240.2bn
7. Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands) - $240bn
8. Berkshire Hathaway (US) - $223.6bn
9. Apple (US) - $215.6bn
10. Exxon Mobil (US) - $205bn

When talking about Actual Assets owned? Apple isn't top 10.

Apple is only #1 for "MARKET CAP". this is NOT the same as "worlds biggest company". Market cap is just the total value of all outstanding shares based on current stock market valuation. Heck, Even Samsung (as much as people here hate them) is technically a bigger company, hiring more employees, with more divisions, more asset ownership.

 

[Applemaniac7]

If Apple does that, they can't compete and sell their hardware.

Never did bill gates bank balance any harm..

 

[villicodelirant]

5 years ago, the MacBook Pro was intended as a workstation class laptop.

Not quite.
But yes, 10 years ago, the 17" MBP was surely the go-to notebook for the creative professional who needed horsepower.
Now, that trophy goes to an entirely new class of matchines - workstation laptops.

what it comes down to. Say you're a CAD designer and you're competing for a project. it takes you a week to put together the project because you'reon the 2017 MacBook Pro, but you're competing against someone on the most recent XPS with the 8xxx CPUs and it only takes him 4 days to finish.

Precisely this.

 

[aylk]

Define a majority of Mac Users. Would you classify the majority as power or as everyday users. The latter comes to mind, including education. The current line up more then meets their needs under the hood. The Mac OS software seperates the Mac from others like Windows OS. The need to refresh the hardware, not a differenator as it would be with different Windows systems. My 3 plus year old Mac Book doing just great, more speed then I need. Not everyone needs a heavy lifting system.

Your three year old Mac is more capable out of the box than any Mac laptop on the current line up.

 

[gnipgnop]

Adobe Creative Cloud, when editing video or other graphic intensive images.

That really comes down to the difference between CUDA/Open CL + Adobe being really slow to implement things like Metal or Metal 2 in Mac versions of the software. Adobe has a checkered history when it comes to supporting the Mac anyway. For example, it took them many, many years to actually provide native OS X versions of CS applications. They were perfectly fine with selling Mac users CS at the standard price despite it's performance basically being an emulation of OS 9. Did you notice how lukewarm the response was to the Adobe guy that got up on stage at WWDC? Adobe's reputation has seen better days.

 

[villicodelirant]

So you are telling me that Apple needs to copy the management style of other companies far less successful than themselves?

I think he's probably telling you that you need to buy your desktops from those other companies "far less successful than themselves".

 

[LordVic]

Why on Earth would you use an iOS device as a developer workstation and/or build server?

Just kill the Mac already and port the toolchain to Windows and Unices.

I think that Windows toolchain would be a huge boost for Apple and open up development of Applications to an even greater audience (as we saw this year, Android App development in volume has passed iOS for new Apps and total Apps, with Apple's first ever decline in new Apps submitted)

Right now, the requirement of owning a MacOS computer is a big barrier of entry into iOS App Development. however, I don't see Apple going platform agnostic here. I think it's part of their plan to keep App development an Apple specific thing.

they just need to ensure they don't cut off their only tools that they sell that can do it.

 

[Nuvi]

MacBook Pro's do NOT compete with workstation class notebooks... so of course they will be better. Poor Comparison. I work for a major university and I can literally walk around all day with my 2017 15" MacBook Pro in my backback... I wouldn't do that with a zbook!

I'll give you the Mac Mini though...

Apple thinks MacBook Pro is desktop replacement so I think comparison with likes of zbook is relevant. In any case if Apple wanted they could have one of the fastest laptops but unfortunately it seems they are reluctant to frequent revision releases. Then again, there might be lots of thermal challenges with current design.

 

[Ethosik]

Apple thinks MacBook Pro is desktop replacement so I think comparison with likes of zbook is relevant. In any case if Apple wanted they could have one of the fastest laptops but unfortunately it seems they are reluctant to frequent revision releases. Then again, there might be lots of thermal challenges with current design.

Not all desktop replacements are equal. Apple prioritizes on battery life.

As I have said in a prior post. We have went from internal only to external. I would rather have "meh" internal GPU with great battery life than a great internal GPU with horrible battery life. I can then use external expandability and get 3x eGPUs while at the office on power to get massive work done.

 

[green86]

Apple thinks MacBook Pro is desktop replacement so I think comparison with likes of zbook is relevant. In any case if Apple wanted they could have one of the fastest laptops but unfortunately it seems they are reluctant to frequent revision releases. Then again, there might be lots of thermal challenges with current design.

Lol! I'm Glad you THINK that with no way to back it up! Really Apple thinks that about the MacBook Pro? WHERE have they said that? IF they did, why Come out with the iMac Pro? To make such assumptions is moronic. Also, Macbook Pros have some of the fastest SSDs in the world, so I'd like to see some benchmarks backing your false claims up.

 

[LordVic]

Lol! I'm Glad you THINK that with no way to back it up! Really Apple thinks that about the MacBook Pro? WHERE have they said that? IF they did, why Come out with the iMac Pro? To make such assumptions is moronic. Also, Macbook Pros have some of the fastest SSDs in the world, so I'd like to see some benchmarks backing your false claims up.

you do realize that computational power has little to do with the SSD performance right?

how fast / well a computer performs is essentially the "holy trinity" in computers. you need the rigth CPU, RAM and Drive speed working together and geared for the task that is being done.

a lot of computational technologies don't deal with large data on disk, but large data on memory. the super fast NVME storage in a computer will likely sit idle for most tasks past initial startup of that task. yes, faster is better, but for many workloads, most of that speed is being wasted as the IO of the drive is forced to wait either on CPU or RAM to actually complete the activity.

making your claim that he's moronic JUST because of the great SSD kind of backfires on you as your comments don't really make it seem like you understand system building, and what parts make up the machine and how they integrate with eachother.

if someone is complaining that the CPU isn't fast enough, the SSD storage is not going to fix their problem. if someone is complaining that they need 32gb of RAM, the SSD isn't going to make up for missing the 16gb

 

[Nieval]

Not the sort of criticism that I am see here in this forum, and certainly not the vitriol and hatred being spewed in his direction (with the rest of us forum members being caught in the crossfire)... And I resent what that has turned the forums into.

Again, not the point you and I are debating, but nice try.

I agree that he does deserve criticism.

Firstly, kudos for trying to sneak in that comment under the radar like you did, again I salute you and your magnificent attempts to not own up like a man would.

Just for clarification because you know, I'm not paying $100 dollars to read articles about Apple and therefore I'm obviously less informed and less educated (and by extension stupider than you) on all topics Apple-related, what are you agreeing with exactly?

 

[scoobs69]

Anyone who is interested in tech already knows what the difference between an i5/i7 and Xeon is. Even if we're talking about older Xeon that is effectively slower than the new consumer offerings the offer stability that the consumer parts are not capable of. This is why they cost 4x and more what an equivalent i7 costs. It's an unfair comparison imo since they are reserved exclusively for servers and workstations. For a personal home computer Xeon is just not necessary unless you're doing high-end professional work and cannot risk any sort of downtime.

If I know the differences, and I know that the Xeon difference means very little to the productivity/efficiency of my work, why would I pay 4x the cost?

Plenty of professional understand there are other CPUs designed for professional workstations, not just Xeon CPUs. Like I mentioned before, they've purchased i5 and i7 iMacs for their workstations. On the PC side, they've also purchased i5/i7/i9/Ryzen CPUs - for their workstations.

Curiously, Apple's MacBook Pro (allegedly targeted at professional users), doesn't use a Xeon CPU, but an i7 laptop processor.

Xeon's have their place for a very tiny segment of professionals. So regardless how many times you say it, for the vast majority of professionals, Xeons are most certainly comparable to other non-Xeon CPUs regarding price and performance.

 

[green86]

you do realize that computational power has little to do with the SSD performance right?

how fast / well a computer performs is essentially the "holy trinity" in computers. you need the rigth CPU, RAM and Drive speed working together and geared for the task that is being done.

a lot of computational technologies don't deal with large data on disk, but large data on memory. the super fast NVME storage in a computer will likely sit idle for most tasks past initial startup of that task. yes, faster is better, but for many workloads, most of that speed is being wasted as the IO of the drive is forced to wait either on CPU or RAM to actually complete the activity.

making your claim that he's moronic JUST because of the great SSD kind of backfires on you as your comments don't really make it seem like you understand system building, and what parts make up the machine and how they integrate with eachother.

if someone is complaining that the CPU isn't fast enough, the SSD storage is not going to fix their problem. if someone is complaining that they need 32gb of RAM, the SSD isn't going to make up for missing the 16gb

No, those were two separate claims. Reading comprehension is still a thing. I do not need a lesson in computer architecture. But to say that the MacBook Pro is 'seriously' outdated is moronic. A 7700HQ is nothing to sneeze at and is still quite competitive. Only thicker, bulkier, uglier laptops will be faster and are for an entirely different market.

 

[opeter]

As of right now, there are no other platforms to develop iOS programs on. if you want to hit the iPhone or iPad market with a program, you must have an Apple computer. if you start cutting out the Mini or the Pro, those people who rely on these platforms will no longer have a device option to support the App, services and platforms running on iOS.

Right. But this can (and probalby will) change in the future. Maybe sooner, than we can imagine.

 

[LordVic]

No, those were two separate claims. Reading comprehension is still a thing. I do not need a lesson in computer architecture. But to say that the MacBook Pro is 'seriously' outdated is moronic. A 7700HQ is nothing to sneeze at and is still quite competitive. Only thicker, bulkier, uglier laptops will be faster and are for an entirely different market.

the MacBook Pro's running the 7700HQ aren't out of date. intel doesn't have a replacement for that CPU for mobile out just yet.

However, That's the ONLY one thats not outdated. the i5 MacBook Pro can be updated to a newer CPU already.

in fact the 13" i5 (dual core) CPU has been outdated for a while now, with the i5-8 series being a drop in replacement that brings quad core under the same power envelope.

The MacBook Air is grossly out of date. The Mac Mini is grossly out of date. The Mac Pro is grossly out of date. The iMac is out of date.

So out of Apple's entire product lineup in the computer world, 1 of their more expensive models isn't out of date. the quad core based MacBook Pros

 

[npmacuser5]

Your three year old Mac is more capable out of the box than any Mac laptop on the current line up.

MacBook, sorry for the typo. And no it does not have better tech specs then today’s newer Mac Laptop’s.

 

[scoobs69]

Apple's in a particular pickle regarding their computer linup. As easy as it would be to say "Just get rid of" those products that don't necessarily do well, Apple has to remember (And likely does) that the MacOS linup is INTEGRAL to the entire ecosystem.

As of right now, there are no other platforms to develop iOS programs on. if you want to hit the iPhone or iPad market with a program, you must have an Apple computer. if you start cutting out the Mini or the Pro, those people who rely on these platforms will no longer have a device option to support the App, services and platforms running on iOS.

Apple has to be careful here not to cut off too much of their own product category, or hurry up and devise a way to allow iOS to develop apps the same way you can on MacOS.

iMac and MacBook Pro? Maybe?

 

[pat500000]

Agree or disagree, Mac value holds up extremely well and lifespan are increasingly pushing the boundaries...Look at MacBook Air from 10 years ago still fetching over $100 dollars on eBay. People are keeping their devices longer and longer no need for product refreshes every year. IMO.

Until keyboard issue.....

 

[burpootus]

When the Mac-Mini was last updated in 2014, I was in the market for my first Mac. Based on the disappointing upgrade choices they announced, I purchased a refurb 2012 model with a Core i7 processor. I should have taken a clue then, but later I purchased an early 2016 Macbook Retina (12"), and at 17 months age with less than 75 cycle counts, it started giving a Service Battery warning. The local Genius Bar confirmed the battery needed to be replaced, and they quoted me $299 since it was out of warranty, which is $100 more than indicated on the web. So even when they do build a machine that is reasonably up to date, the quality control is crap. Needless to say, I'm headed back to a PC.

 

[dirt_farmer]

Unfortunately the article fails to mention the sad state of Macintosh *software* https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/ne...c-by-caching-data-from-encrypted-hard-drives/

 

[DesertNomad]

And if your app is good, a million of those sold will be more than enough to make up the purchase of that Mac and 100 future Macs!
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So you are saying that you NEED 18 cores or 32+ GB of RAM, or an NVIDIA GPU to develop an app? I am still using an old Mac mini to develop apps and it performs just fine.

I am saying that Apple's commitment to the Mac platform is important because it is the basis for what makes the profit on the iPhone. I'd like to be able to upgrade my 2014 MBP to something with a 2TB SSD and 32GB RAM and I am finding both the storage and RAM a bit limiting for the development work I do.

 

[LordVic]

iMac and MacBook Pro? Maybe?

not everyone wants / needs an all-in-one or laptop.

I for example, have a home office, setup with 4 displays (I drive a 40" TV, a 22" Touch panel, a 34" 21:9 and another 24" 1080p display.

at no point does the iMac (or any all-in-one) fit into my world. And I doubt I'm alone