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What changed at Apple is the way they are trying to convince you about the quality of their products. When Steve Jobs was presenting a new product, he was really convinced that it's the best product Apple was able to produce and deliver to their customers. And it was really true. He knew it could be better with more advanced technology, but he also knew that they tried every single thing to make it great. The nice thing about that is the fact that even though the products had some flaws like that iPhone 4 antena, you knew there was SJ and that he didn't want to disappoint his customers. And if they failed, they tried harder. They didn't talk about it much, but when he was doing the keynote, you instantly knew that he is aware of their mistakes.

And that's the reason why I was able to forgive Apple when that f***ing Nvidia 8800GTS in my 2008 24" iMac failed and all the money I saved was gone (I was like 18 years old) and I was not able to pay like $1000 dollars for the repair (it happened 3 months after warranty expiration).

When Tim is on stage, you know that meanwhile he was curating the creation of new products, he was also solving some global problems, making sure everybody is happy and smiling. But what he is doing is trying to convice me that a flawed product is ok. Apple has not changed in the way they are acting about the product issues publicly. What changed is how they deal with them inside the company.
 
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Apple doesn't want to make a laptop whose only purpose is to be a desktop replacement. They want to make a laptop that can serve as many people as possible. Those that want an ultraportable 15" laptop as well as those that want a very powerful laptop (quad-core, fast SSD, very fast I/O). The current 15" MBP is the result of trying to put such a laptop together.

What Apple does not want is to develop a laptop that can 'only' be used as a desktop replacement.

As far as I know there are only gaming laptops made that are purely built to replace a desktop and nothing else. Desktop replacement in Apples context has meant something portable but powerful enough that you don’t necessarily need a desktop to get your work done. For example, MBP 17” was OK for editing even without external monitor. Regarding the power, unfortunately current MBP could use a spec bump. Not having more than 16GB of RAM is just crazy. With proper built-in GPU and 64GB RAM many would be much happier.
 
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Hmmm I thought the i9-8950HK is the replacement for that i7.

It is. But I'll give some benefit of the doubt about Apple rolling it out yet since the chip just launched Q2-2018 (so in the last few months)
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You can’t compare Samsung to Apple, because they are a consumer electronics company, with many more divisions in various other industries, compared to Apple which supposedly is still a computer company evolving into something else in the near future...

Other than that, your rest comments are SPOT ON!

yeah, the comparison wasn't intended for a company to company comparison. It was pointing out the fact that those who repeat "Apple is the biggest company in the world" are incorrect in their statement.

As I pointed out, Apple is the leader in Market Cap. Not actual company size. Saying Apple is the biggest company in the world because they've got the largest Market Cap isn't a true statement. They'd be the most expensive company in the world to purchase due to stock valuation (Which does not directly correlate to current size of the company but expected forecasted growth. Stock can also be very volatile.

If you're talking about actual company size, there are far better measures than market cap. Such as Asset wealth + Owners Equity. Even employee size, or any other metric about what the company actually has on the financial statements.
 
Please take the time to tweet to Tim and co about this thread. Someone may read it.

https://twitter.com/tim_cook
https://twitter.com/cue
https://twitter.com/pschiller
This is good and all but I'm using a more "old fashioned" approach myself; I'm taking my post in this thread and trying to notch it down so that whomever initially reviews Cook's inbox, will be able to quickly read/digest; where it conveys my sentiments of being ready to just move on from the entire Apple ecosystem as both a long time customer and long time shareholder (dating back to 1997 when I took a chance based on Steve Job's WWDC fireside chat as to what things he would be recommending as an adviser and when I ended up doubling down on AAPL after his August 1997 MacWorld Boston keynote).

It helps to rewatch it again to see what made Apple's return to relevance possible (every part - the board members, what things Jobs articulated even though some things were against what the Apple evangelists at the time were completely against like the Microsoft partnership)...

 
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I appreciate you taking the time and effort to reach out in a civil manner. I really do.

I am not saying you cannot talk about the Mac in say, a thread about the Apple Watch. However, there needs to be an obvious link, and related to the topic at hand, rather than just a retread of the numerous “Apple sucks” or “Fire Tim Cook!” or some other zero-effort comment which adds absolutely nothing of value to the discussion and serves only to annoy everyone else trying to have a civilised conversation.

Which was what has been happening for as long as I can remember. And it’s frankly gotten to the point where I am like “is this going to be the future of every subsequent new thread here?”

Maybe others are okay with it, but I am not, and if the haters can’t seem to get the message in the other threads, then I have no choice but to come here and deliver the message loud and clear.

Did I succeed in getting my point across? Who knows, but I just can’t take it lying down any more. Does that make me a horrible person? Maybe, and I apologise to anyone I have offended. Starting with @Nieval.



Likewise, see my response above. This thread is just one massive outlet for people to vent their frustrations over Apple’s neglect of the Mac. There’s really very little constructive discussion that’s going on here, despite it clocking in at almost 2000 replies.

I may still reply if I see something relevant, and it’s pretty much just the same old people recycling the same old comments. Spin off the Mac. Fire Tim Cook. Steve Jobs would never have done this. Bring back Scott Forstall. Jump ship to windows. Yada yada yada.



The reality is that while I tried to prepare myself mentally for it, I found I simply wasn’t able to devote enough time to respond to every single response that came my way. It’s not that I am deliberately trying to ignore certain “hard to answer” questions. Some simply slipped through my notice or I simply have not been able to get down and formulate a response to it yet (and truth be told, I might never get round to tackling them now that the school term is resuming soon and the time I can spend here will be significantly less).

I am genuine about engaging the posters here in honest conversation, but I find that I have also pretty much said everything that I came here to say. I don’t think there is much more I can meaningfully add to this thread without repeating what I have already said, and I think I have made my point.

I do also admit that I came here with a secondary agenda - to let the posters here know in no uncertain terms that the way they were screwing up any attempt at holding a meaningful discussion in the other threads was most certainly not appreciated. Especially when a couple of them flat out admitted (in the AR thread) to knowing full well what they were doing and the problems they were causing, and they still did it anyways.

That was the final straw.

Does that make me arrogant? Perhaps. Probably. I make no excuses for what I did. It is what it is.

I guess we disagree about what's productive, whether or not it's appropriate to be critical of Apple, what the function of the forums should be, and what kind of person the problem is.

I've read the whole thread and found it to be as productive as any thread in the forums. Yes there are haters here and in other threads...you don't seem to think those that robotically praise Apple are a problem, although they are the flipside of the coin of haters. They are just as much trolls. Whether or not this has been increasing is arguable...sometimes it's our attention to something that has changed, not the thing itself. But, there have been plenty of people here that have written thoughtful and lengthy posts...some have merely expressed their frustration (as you have in the post I'm replying to)...that is productive in my opinion, especially in a thread focused on this very topic...frustration with Apple. I doubt the dude who wrote a wall of text detailing his first Apple IIe in highschool and how he is concerned Apple has lost its way is the same guy writing a one line hate message in an animoji thread. I think it's unfortunate you don't think posts like his are productive and that you lump us all together and render our input in the community moot.

I appreciate your initial perspectives and appreciate your input in the forums. I think it's ironic, though, that you are telling people who are frustrated with Macs, basically that they should move on to PCs because Mac is no longer what it was when they became engaged with it. Apple is a different company and not for them. The logic of your argument regarding the forums suggests that macrumors is no longer what it was when you became engaged with it...yet, you remain here and even try to have a counter-effect to those changes. I can appreciate that. I don't see you appreciating that quality in those who are frustrated with the Mac line and express ideas related to how it could be more encompassing or at least address the concerns of those it used to be focused on.
 
I have a late 2013 MBP and unless the hardware gives out, I have no plans to upgrade for several years to come.

I have a maxed out late 2012 MacBook Pro. I upgraded the RAM to 16 Gigs and since it was a piece of cake I did the same with the HDD and put in a 500 Gig SSD a few years ago. Just recently I swapped it again for a 1TB SSD. So actually I am still fine. This is until the day Apple decides not to allow my Mac to run the latest OS. The 2011 MacBook Pros won't be able to run Mojave. So I guess I am next to have an obsolete MacBook.
 
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Now? I feel legitimately concerned about buying anything in the current line up because I'm not sure it is going to actually continue working for more than a few months.

Is there any proof that Apple's contemporary repair/replacement record is any worse than other computer hardware vendors? No. Despite all the hysteria about the MBP butterfly keyboard, I haven't seen anyone provide actual numbers that would prove something widespread regarding that. It's all anecdotal experiences, and that includes the lawsuits that have been filed. I also haven't seen anyone provide numbers for other manufacturers reliability either.
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I guess we disagree about what's productive, whether or not it's appropriate to be critical of Apple, what the function of the forums should be, and what kind of person the problem is.

Criticism is only constructive/productive when it's based on facts.
 
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I guess we disagree about what's productive, whether or not it's appropriate to be critical of Apple, what the function of the forums should be, and what kind of person the problem is.
Agreed. We may just have to agree to disagree on this matter. But I will take your words to heart.

I've read the whole thread and found it to be as productive as any thread in the forums. Yes there are haters here and in other threads...you don't seem to think those that robotically praise Apple are a problem, although they are the flipside of the coin of haters. They are just as much trolls. Whether or not this has been increasing is arguable...sometimes it's our attention to something that has changed, not the thing itself. But, there have been plenty of people here that have written thoughtful and lengthy posts...some have merely expressed their frustration...that is productive in my opinion, especially in a thread focused on this very topic...frustration with Apple. I doubt the dude who wrote a wall of text detailing his first Apple IIe in highschool and how he is concerned Apple has lost its way is the same guy write a one line hate message in an animoji thread. I think it's unfortunate you don't think posts like his are productive and that you lump us all together and render our input in the community moot.

You are right. That is on me, and I do regret that legitimate posters who genuinely desire a productive discussion here had to be caught in the crossfire and bear the brunt of some of my more extreme and acerbic remarks.

I recognise that there are many people here who are truly very passionate about their Macs. I can’t say I empathise with that, but I promise you - I will stop being confrontational here and improve on the manner in which I respond here.

I appreciate your initial perspectives and appreciate your input in the forums. I think it's ironic, though, that you are telling people who are frustrated with Macs, basically that they should move on to PCs because Mac is no longer what it was when they became engaged with it. Apple is a different company and not for them. The logic of your argument regarding the forums suggests that macrumors is no longer what it was when you became engaged with it...yet, you remain here and even try to have a counter-effect to those changes. I can appreciate that. I don't see you appreciating that quality in those who are frustrated with the Mac line and express ideas related to how it could be more encompassing or at least address the concerns of those it used to be focused on.

Here’s the thing - I do genuinely think that Apple has its own priorities when designing the Mac, and it is extremely unlikely that we will see Apple go back to the older Mac designs of years gone by. That ship has long sailed.

They can whine and reminisce about the “good old days” until the cows come home, and I can all but guarantee that it’s not going to happen. If anything, that TechCrunch article I linked to shows that Apple has its own take on what a modular Mac means, and it’s clearly nothing at all what the people here want. Expect to pay more for increasingly specialised hardware.

If it sounds rude that I am essentially telling them to “take it or leave it”, that’s because I honestly do believe that these are really the only two options available to them. Either get with the program and use the Mac as Apple intended (usb C, dongles, displays, wireless peripherals and e-GPUs) or rip off the bandaid by switching to a PC where you might at least be able to get hardware that can better suit your needs.

Venting may feel good for that short little while, but you are still going to have to face the reality eventually.

While we may well see an updated Mac line later this year, I am not expecting any significant overhauls to them. Largely spec bumps across the board. If the current Mac line isn’t doing it for you, I don’t expect anything to change by waiting for an outcome that will never come.

That’s my honest response to the posters here. Of course I, as a fellow Apple product user, would want everyone here to be happy with the Apple ecosystem. But I think there comes a point where we all have to be realistic. This may well be one of those times.
 
What Apple does not want is to develop a laptop that can 'only' be used as a desktop replacement.

What Apple wants to do is build an entire ecosystem containing only penguins, sharks and meerkats, because those get top ratings on the Discovery channel. That might be hugely popular in the short term, but is unsustainable.

A platform like MacOS is an ecosystem - to remain a viable competitor to Windows and Linux it needs developers to produce compatible software and power users to evangelise it to - and support - family, friends and colleagues (and pay developers). It needs to support cross-platform standards (Like OpenGL or its successors) so developers can economically port code from other platforms without re-learning how to write code. It needs people visibly using macs for high-end applications so customers can see that the Mac is a serious computing tool and we don't back-slide to the days when Macs were dismissed as toy computers. You think the big car manufacturers sponsor rally and motor racing teams because there is a huge market for racing cars?

None of that will happen if the only available hardware is aimed at customers who really want an iPad with a keyboard and trackpad.

Even the Hackintosh option will probably go away as soon as all non-obsolete (where Apple get to choose what "obsolete" means) Macs have iMac Pro style security co-processors.
 
Is there any proof that Apple's contemporary repair/replacement record is any worse than other computer hardware vendors? No. Despite all the hysteria about the MBP butterfly keyboard, I haven't seen anyone provide actual numbers that would prove something widespread regarding that. It's all anecdotal experiences, and that includes the lawsuits that have been filed. I also haven't seen anyone provide numbers for other manufacturers reliability either.
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Criticism is only constructive/productive when it's based on facts.

Well, it may be anecdotal evidence, but in many cases it comes from users who worked on previous generation laptop keyboards. So it is at least comparative and based on concrete experience. Getting the "actual numbers" would require a large scale statistical effort, like a survey, which I doubt anyone here is in much of a position to carry out. But think about it this way; did we hear a chorus of complaints about keyboards from, say, 2009 to 2015? No. The complaints started with the butterfly keyboard. Correlation isn't causality, sure, but when you see an alarmingly conspicuous degree of correlation it's worth considering that something might be going on...
 
Is there any proof that Apple's contemporary repair/replacement record is any worse than other computer hardware vendors? No. Despite all the hysteria about the MBP butterfly keyboard, I haven't seen anyone provide actual numbers that would prove something widespread regarding that. It's all anecdotal experiences, and that includes the lawsuits that have been filed. I also haven't seen anyone provide numbers for other manufacturers reliability either.

"Following anecdotal reports of a keyboard more prone to failure than in previous years, AppleInsider has collected service data for the first year of release of the 2014, 2015, and 2016 MacBook Pros, with an additional slightly shorter data set for the 2017 model given that it hasn't been available for a year yet.

Not including any Touch Bar failures, the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard is failing twice as often in the first year of use as the 2014 or 2015 models, and the 2017 is better, but not by a lot."

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

That said...I'm not sure what you are claiming in the comment above. No one has claimed that Apple is not able to repair said keyboards...they've just said that the replacement keyboards have a tendency to fail more often than keyboards in the past, as well. There is some data in the article regarding that.

I haven't seen numbers from other manufacturers, either, but I'm not surprised. First of all, I'd expect it to be a widespread problem before reading about it. Second, there would more likely be a bigger stink if it was a more premium product from a company proud for it's build quality. With Apple it IS news because Apple is supposed to be the best (and charges for it). If some other crappy company had bad keyboards on a 600 dollar device, people would be like "Well, what did you expect?"
 
Let’s face it, Apple needs to make profit at the end of the day like any other company. Of course they will focus on where the money is ... currently is the iPhone market where they sell by millions .. that’s why they focus on adding more features like emojis and sh#$ .. they will sell millions of iPhones every year ... the same thing could be true for MacBook Pros to some extent ...

But you want them to spend $$$ on RnD to make a new Mac mini for example and only 10 people buy it.. and guess what .. you won’t upgrade it every year ... and Apple knows it... unfortunately the professional market doesn’t cut it anymore... and with Apple premium prices forget it..

Unless Apple revolutionize their products so that both professionals and normal people at home, schools, companies etc buy their desktops then it might be beneficial for Apple yo focus on this again

The bottom line is.. the professional desktop market is very small compared to iPhone market considering how much they should spend on RnD and how much they will gain as profit

Sorry for my poor English
 
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Well, for laptops it's over 2 years old a this point.

But my point was a retrospective on the last 5 years, not in particularly about a single model.



Good for you, but considering there are at least 3 class action lawsuits against Apple over the butterfly keyboard I don't think you are in the majority.



I agree, but how come the greatest Apple laptop was made 6 years ago and not last year?

Also, it made a lot of sense to remove the superdrive. Optical media was dying years before that.



A very bleak present though. Most accessories (keyboard, mice, memory sticks, etc) are still manufactured with USB-A connectors. Even Apple's Mac accessories come with USB-A and not USB-C cables.

And let's forget al the problems surrounding the USB-C spec.

To clarify: Realistically in corporate america the 7th gen Kaby Lake-U/Y have only started filtering through to end users at the start of this year. Nobody except a possible higher up has seen an 8th gen and we don't have an image for one yet. That would have been a one-off. Generally there is a 3 year buy/use/replace cycle here and once it's out of extended warranty it gets recycled. And these machines get very well used.

This differs considerable from my own case, I buy and try to make them last as long as possible for my own machines.
 
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Well, it may be anecdotal evidence, but in many cases it comes from users who worked on previous generation laptop keyboards. So it is at least comparative and based on concrete experience. Getting the "actual numbers" would require a large scale statistical effort, like a survey, which I doubt anyone here is in much of a position to carry out. But think about it this way; did we hear a chorus of complaints about keyboards from, say, 2009 to 2015? No. The complaints started with the butterfly keyboard. Correlation isn't causality, sure, but when you see an alarmingly conspicuous degree of correlation it's worth considering that something might be going on...

Getting the "actual numbers" is the only way to prove that it's factually correct. Also, you can't truthfully claim that the complaints about the keyboard "started" with the butterfly since you don't have the repair/failure numbers for ANY generation of Apple laptop keyboard or competing manufacturers keyboards. You can only say that Apple's butterfly keyboard became a focus of online bloggers and tech sites in the past couple of years. Online commentary is not the same thing as proof.

Also, if you want to talk about "correlation", what about Apple's customer satisfaction rating for computers in 2016 and 2017. Was it good? Yes. Have Apple's sales for the MBP gone down during that time? No, they've gone up, and by a significant number. Those are some verifiable aspects of Apple's business that don't seem to align with the idea that there's something unusually negative regarding the reliability of the recent MBP designs versus previous generations. Not saying that either of those prove that there couldn't possibly be an issue with the keyboard vs. prior designs, but until Apple releases the numbers (and I'm sure they have them), people who want to be taken seriously shouldn't talk about it like it's a fact.
 
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I no longer recommend a mac to my friends or family for this very reason. While I'm sure Apple will produce something impressive; I don't trust Apple to provide updates to keep it relevant. ASUS, Lenovo, and Microsoft are way ahead of Apple. My last two Mac's have been markedly disappointing. Be it failing butterfly keyboards, and insufficient memory; the mac is no longer the premier brand of yesteryear. Moreover, they don't seem to really care.
 
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What Apple wants to do is build an entire ecosystem containing only penguins, sharks and meerkats, because those get top ratings on the Discovery channel. That might be hugely popular in the short term, but is unsustainable.
You aren't the first one to say so, the slogan 'Apple is doomed' has become notorious. Yet, despite constant predictions of Apple's demise and/or the Mac's demise over the better part of the last two decades, Apple and the Mac keep doing well (the Mac in terms of marketshare growth rather than unit growth).
 
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iPhone is king
You know when Samsung introduced their Exploding Kittens Notes? They lost lots of money and sales, but their fridges, toasters, TVs, mid-range phones, low-range phones, dishwashers, godsknowwhatelse kept them more than afloat. What would happen to Apple if iPhone XI had to be completely recalled because of battery (or other) problems?
 
I have watched Apple slide down hill for the last few years and now it has come to this. I struggle to find one person with anything good to say about their computers anymore.

It's bizarre. They watch and do nothing. They let their heritage and empire slip away as even their greatest and most loyal fans shun them.

There is nothing redeeming about Apple anymore.
 
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The sad thing is the Mac I would actually like right now is that iMac Pro which is extremely expensive for what it is.

But it's finally an iMac that goes beyond the "just get the i7 version if you want some power since the mac pro is out of date at this time."
The demo system was 8 cores (the $5000 model and they had a deal where you could get some $ off).
32 gigs of ram on that with a 1 TB SSD and the Radeon Pro Vega (8 gig ram) video card.
It's just more expensive than the average person can afford.

At the same time the same computer store I saw it in was selling a liquid cooled Core i9 system with 10 cores for about $6000 with Windows 10. But that had dual gaming video cards (11 megs ram each) configured. I guess the well off have some great options but not so much I.


Wait. You were looking at a $5,000 8-core iMac Pro (8 cores, 32GB ram, 1TB flash drive, and an 8GB Vega 56 video card), then looked at an over-the-top, liquid cooled i9 7900x (10-core) Windows 10 system with dual 1080ti Video Cards - probably a 1TB NVMe flash drive, for $6,000.

And that leads you to believe "only the Well Off have some great options for a killer system"?

There hasn't been a better time to buy in the past few years than there is right now.

Try this:

10-core 7900x CPU
H115i radiator
ASRock Extreme4 motherboard
32GB RAM
Samsung 860 Evo 1TB SSD
8GB EVGA GTX 1080 video card
Fractal Design Meshify C case
EVGA 850w Modular PS
3 case fans
Keyboard (pick one)
Mouse (pick one)
Total = $2650 USD

If you want to...

8-core 7820x CPU
H115i radiator
ASRock Extreme4 motherboard
32GB RAM
Samsung 860 Evo 250TB SSD - boot drive
8GB EVGA GTX 1080 video card
Fractal Design Meshify C case
EVGA 750w Modular PS
3 case fans
Keyboard (pick one)
Mouse (pick one)
Total = $1825 USD

Or, if you don't need a keyboard and mouse and play with it a little more...

8-core 7820x CPU
H100i radiator
ASRock Extreme4 motherboard
32GB RAM
Samsung 860 Evo 250TB SSD - boot drive
8GB Sapphire Radeon RX 580 video card
Fractal Design Meshify C case
EVGA 750w Modular PS
3 case fans
Total = $1630 USD <--- this is a beast for the price

I didn't even get into a 6-core i7-8700 system, which would drop the pricing to $1,385 (or lower) with appropriate component adjustments.

There's also Ryzen 7 systems on the inexpensive side.

....Dude, you have a WHOLE LOT of options for a killer productivity workstation/gaming system right now.
 
The problem is that Apple let Jony Ive "design" the company into a thermal/spacial corner in the pursuit of some ideal "thinness".

I'd like to know what a full-height butterfly keyboard feels like. That could be an upgrade. But a thinner butterfly keyboard? That is a compromise.

The non-user-upgradeable memory/SSDs was a dealbreaker when I was fresh out of college. With my purchasing power today, it irritates me as a matter of principle. What is a dealbreaker for me today is the lack of power. I've had 16GB of RAM since 2010, and I've been using it since then. If the problem is that 32GB of RAM would result in a 10% battery life loss, then give me a larger battery to offset that loss. Oh wait- there's no space for a larger battery!

The problem, in my eyes, is that "Pro" branded hardware packs generation-old CPUs, lacks upgradeability (let alone user upgradeability), and lacks connectivity. Yes, I'm "that" guy who bemoans the loss of USB A, ethernet, and magsafe. But that's a big picture way of saying I miss: not having to recharge my keyboard/mouse, compatibility with most of the crap I've acquired in the last decade, trusting that my web traffic is secure between my keyboard and my cable modem, and saturating GBe when working with my media collection.

If I went PC - and it's getting really tempting with each passing day - I'd have every port known to man, 10GBe (probably with teaming with the hardware that I'd spec out), and a healthy 32GB or 64GB of RAM.

Alas, I am brand loyal. I'll switch back to PC if this machine dies before Apple releases an appealing replacement. And I'd definitely ditch my iPhones. My first experience with iTunes on Windows was so scarring that for as long as my heart still beats, the two shall never again meet under my roof.
 
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