Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[bluecoast]

Not sure exactly what you mean. Acer right now offers a superlative alternative to Apple, assuming you are not doing color-accurate work.

I am pretty sure that Apple will release something tantalizing in the next couple of months. But I don't think they will accept loss of face by jettisoning the absolutely abominable keyboard, removing the vomitous touch bar and rejiggering the ports. The keyboard, by the way, is not horrible not because of its typing attributes, but because it's unforgiving of any extended environmental stress, such as accumulation of dirt and continuous internal heat.

They might shoe-horn the faster Intel processor (if they don't I am done with them for good.) They will update the keyboard to butterfly keyboard v.3, but they will not fundamentally change the design. They might put more weird symbols on the keys, why not add a hedera on one of the keys, huh? (LOL)

They will not modify the port configuration. They will not disinter the Mag Safe connector. They will do nothing other than, maybe, squeezing a faster processor into the chassis and, maybe, re-branding the GPU and shrinking bezels somewhat. I really hope I am wrong.

Frankly, if they are able to stick an i9 in it, I just might buy it. Despite my perfervid animus for Apple right now, I will still buy their stuff, as long as it's better than what was offered before.

EDIT: This is just late night scapulimancy induced by staring at to many progress bars. Don't judge me for being too optimistic.

Great post!

Regarding the Touchbar:

I think that three outcomes are likely.

#1
They’ll make it optional at the top end Mac 13 & 15, which will allow them to save face: ‘let the customer decide!’

#2
On the other hand, they may just see sense and realise that no one really cares too much about it to pay extra for it and ditch it.

As you say, that would be humiliating for Apple - however they are apparently planning to ditch 3D Touch in 2019 on the iPhone, so maybe this could be a rehearsal for that climb down!

#3
They’ll almost certainly want to bring in the boot protection features from the T2 on the iMac Pro to the MBP.

So I do wonder if they’ll do this and take the opportunity to instead:

Make the power button into a Touch ID sensor & ditch the Touchbar.

(Similar to what vendors like Dell have already done).

This would allow Apple to climb down but retain the most useful functionality of the T chips (touch id, boot & hardware protection).

And likely this means they can now fit in a bigger battery.

Finally, think back to WWDC.

Onstage there was no mention of anything new for the touch bar but they DID mention Touch ID for the Mac...

 

[Abazigal]

Yes, because with 100k employees and a trillion dollar financial momentum you can’t afford a Mac development team (and better save the distribution system for iFluff)

Well, at any one time, Apple only has so many people they can deploy, and all other things equal, one more person working on the Mac means one less person working on some other initiative that Apple evidently deems just as important, if not more.

Apple may be a huge company hiring a ton of people, but that's also because they have a ton of projects on their plate, so I guess the two cancel each other out.

 

[toke lahti]

What percentage of PCs over $2000 do you think Apple sells? Why are you trapped in the mindset that winning unprofitable market share is winning?

These figures are a few years old now but I'd bet they haven't changed that much, though they will have changed. If you asked Apple and Dell who'd like to swap places, who do you think would say yes and who would say no?

View attachment 767228

"scraps from the big boys' table". lol.

Funny that you post numbers from 2012. That was the turning point, when even imacs got soldered ram. And lost the place for 3rd mass storage (then ODD, now eluld be great place for ssd or hdd.
EDIT: not soldered, but ”non user accessible”...

 

[toke lahti]

Agree to a point. Floppy disk was cheap also. My real world, wireless home network, ISP, iCloud, fast as hell.

Do you make timemachine backups to icloud?

 

[Black Tiger]

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This was Steve's Apple.

RIP.

Correction. That was Apple’s marketing team. Easy to make that mistake though.

 

[Abazigal]

Great post!

Regarding the Touchbar:

I think that three outcomes are likely.

#1
They’ll make it optional at the top end Mac 13 & 15, which will allow them to save face: ‘let the customer decide!’

#2
On the other hand, they may just see sense and realise that no one really cares too much about it to pay extra for it and ditch it.

As you say, that would be humiliating for Apple - however they are apparently planning to ditch 3D Touch in 2019 on the iPhone, so maybe this could be a rehearsal for that climb down!

#3
They’ll almost certainly want to bring in the boot protection features from the T2 on the iMac Pro to the MBP.

So I do wonder if they’ll do this and take the opportunity to instead:

Make the power button into a Touch ID sensor & ditch the Touchbar.

(Similar to what vendors like Dell have already done).

This would allow Apple to climb down but retain the most useful functionality of the T chips (touch id, boot & hardware protection).

And likely this means they can now fit in a bigger battery.

Finally, think back to WWDC.

Onstage there was no mention of anything new for the touch bar but they DID mention Touch ID for the Mac...

You do realise that Apple has a patent for a touchscreen keyboard, right?

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...covers-a-hybrid-touch-sensitive-keyboard.html

This being Apple, it is important to remember they likely already have a vision for touch bar 3, being very revolutionary compared to pre-touch bar.

They won't get there until 2020 probably, but they have a vision. Right now they are letting consumers start to think differently about the function keys and getting manufacturing scaled so they can get to that goal. This is only the first iteration. I would guess it is full touch keyboard/interface with haptic that changes depending what you are doing.

I am betting on Apple further doubling down on the touchbar.

 

[Black Tiger]

This thread is a great example of why Apple is wise to ignore outside opinions. You simply cannot please everybody all of the time. Some points:
Apple’s focus on thin:
Essential for making technology “transparent” and as unobtrusive as possible.
Apple’s lack of Mac updates:
Need a powerful Mac? See: iMac pro. If that isn’t enough power, you need a supercomputer, not a desktop workstation.
Apple is dumb for dropping ports on the MacBook Pro:
A notebook is a PORTABLE computer. Thunderbolt 3 is ideal for connecting a hub for quick disconnect from an office setup to take the computer on the go. It facilitates portability in a way that plugging six or seven different cables into the computer doesn’t.
Boohoo Apple doesn’t innovate anymore:
The revolutions come pretty infrequently, all considering. Think the time span between the Mac, the iPod, the iPhone for example. The shortest time span was 6 years. The longest was almost two decades. Sometimes that’s the way tech is. Plateaus hit. No one else is doing anything mind blowing either.
Tim Cook has no vision:
If he has no vision, how come people think (and complain) so much that Apple has changed since the days of Steve Jobs? Let’s be clear: not liking Cook’s vision is not the same thing as him not having a vision. Apple is very different today than in 2011. And that is due to Cook’s vision. And how is that vision working out? Check their sales figures for your answer.

 

[bluecoast]

You do realise that Apple has a patent for a touchscreen keyboard, right?

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...covers-a-hybrid-touch-sensitive-keyboard.html

This being Apple, it is important to remember they likely already have a vision for touch bar 3, being very revolutionary compared to pre-touch bar.

They won't get there until 2020 probably, but they have a vision. Right now they are letting consumers start to think differently about the function keys and getting manufacturing scaled so they can get to that goal. This is only the first iteration. I would guess it is full touch keyboard/interface with haptic that changes depending what you are doing.

I am betting on Apple further doubling down on the touchbar.

Yeah I’d read that but thanks!

I think though with the 2016-17 keyboard, in 2018 they would be best advised to go back to basics and make a keyboard that is water and dust proof (as much as possible) and with a little bit more key travel.

I don’t think they should go back to the older keyboards as they are clearly outdated (as last seen on 2015 MBPs), but instead bring in aspects of that people liked to the new design (not breaking as much and better key travel!)

Some sort of e-ink (or micro led when it becomes affordable) on the keys so they could switch to different languages on the fly would be great too.

However...

The things you talk about for a new keyboard, I’d like to see in an optional keyboard for the iPad Pro.

I think that iPad Pro users are probably more open to Apple experimenting with new keyboard designs, as a physical keyboard is an optional add on to that product.

A keyboard that uses some sort of e-ink to change languages on the fly and that uses haptics to switch to special character options etc would be really interesting. As well as being dustproof and waterproof.

Putting in a trackpad for indirect input when using the keyboard wouldn’t go amiss either!

EDIT: actually I’m good with Apple iterating on the current Smart Keyboard and incorporating something like that in their MacBooks. All they’d need is to give the keys a little more key travel.

 

[Bacillus]

You do realise that Apple has a patent for a touchscreen keyboard, right?

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patent...covers-a-hybrid-touch-sensitive-keyboard.html

This being Apple, it is important to remember they likely already have a vision for touch bar 3, being very revolutionary compared to pre-touch bar.

They won't get there until 2020 probably, but they have a vision. Right now they are letting consumers start to think differently about the function keys and getting manufacturing scaled so they can get to that goal. This is only the first iteration. I would guess it is full touch keyboard/interface with haptic that changes depending what you are doing.

I am betting on Apple further doubling down on the touchbar.

In order for the TouchBar to get momentum, it needs to be used more than the original function key bar. That requires adding enough functionality to be distinctive to that and having some (social-) media Champions celebrating it.
For App developers to seriously consider implementation and for TouchBar developers to prosper (this is not fancy-talk from my side, Phil Schiller was preluding to this...), it needs to become standard and so be leveraged across the line, i.e. implemented on the Magic Keyboard, especially on the iMac and (i)MacPro lines.
This all is sorely missing. Non-touchbar MacBooks are even slightly favorite in my country.

If there is a TouchBar vision, it has to materialise soon - or it will be too late.
Then, it will follow the same fate as 3DTouch: Great idea, no scalability or leverage, mediocre support => no success

BTW Haptic feedback on a virtual keyboard: great little idea to be tested out. On iPad - tomorrow.
But I doubt it will save TouchBar. Some say TouchBar was born as a TouchScreen Mac surrogate, which would imply it is a virtual keyboards’ contradiction...

 

[throAU]

Need a powerful Mac? See: iMac pro. If that isn’t enough power, you need a supercomputer, not a desktop workstation.

No. If i need more power I’ll buy a PC at half the cost.

You can try and make excuses for apple if you like, but pragmatic people with actual work to do will buy elsewhere.

The iMac Pro is overpriced, unncessecarily bundled with a screen (nice screen as it is, i don’t need it) and does not offer what pro users actually want.

Innovations are happening, some from Apple, but in the pro computing landscape mostly elsewhere.

Apple has had the POTENTIAL to be a leader in high tech, high performance computers for some time now but have squandered the technology they have (did basically SFA with thunderbolt for example - we should have had external mac GPUs supported by Apple 6+ years ago! friends were hacking them to work in 2012!) and ignored other technology they could have made use of (ZFS, Ryzen/Threadripper CPUs, etc.).

As a tech nerd / power user there is not a single Apple computer that I have any desire to buy right now. Even if i had an unlimited budget, i can simply build something better. The only thing I’m losing by not buying a mac these days is macOS, and that’s nowhere near as big a draw card now as it was.

 

[Abazigal]

In order for the TouchBar to get momentum, it needs to be used more than the original function key bar, add enough functionality to be distinctive to that and have some “Champions” in the (social-) media celebrating it.
For TouchBar developers to prosper (this is not fancy-talk from my side, Phil Schiller was preluding to this...) and App developers to seriously implement it, it needs to become standard and so be leveraged across the line, i.e. implemented on the Magic Keyboard, especially on the iMac and (i)MacPro lines.
This all is sorely missing. Non-touchbar MacBooks are even slightly favorite in my country.

If there is a TouchBar vision, it has to materialise soon - or it will be too late.
Then, it will follow the same fate as 3DTouch: Great idea, no scalability or leverage, mediocre support => no success

I do agree that touchbar adoption seems to have been lacklustre at best. My only impression of seeing one in use was on a TV show where Prince William received a FaceTime call from Lady Gaga on his MacBook Pro, and used the touchbar to answer the call.

He struck me as being quite at ease with it, which makes me wonder if this is another case of disconnect between the more tech-savvy users and Apple. Where Apple made a move that resonates with the mass consumer while alienating the more tech-savvy crowd once again.

To all the MacBook Pro users here, is the touchbar really that without merit for you?

 

[throAU]

To all the MacBook Pro users here, is the touchbar really that without merit for you?

I’m a macbook pro user of previous generations.

The touchbar is $500 on top of what i paid for my previous generation machine for no real benefit.

I don’t care about the touchbar. I never wanted a touchbar. Especially when the new model has other problems.

TouchID? Fine. That’s a good idea.

Fix the keyboard, give us RAM expansion options and replaceable storage. PC ultrabooks can have DIMMS replaced without issue. hell, even the HP surface pro like tablets we have here can be serviced or upgraded.

 

[bluecoast]

In order for the TouchBar to get momentum, it needs to be used more than the original function key bar, add enough functionality to be distinctive to that and have some “Champions” in the (social-) media celebrating it.
For TouchBar developers to prosper (this is not fancy-talk from my side, Phil Schiller was preluding to this...) and App developers to seriously implement it, it needs to become standard and so be leveraged across the line, i.e. implemented on the Magic Keyboard, especially on the iMac and (i)MacPro lines.
This all is sorely missing. Non-touchbar MacBooks are even slightly favorite in my country.

If there is a TouchBar vision, it has to materialise soon - or it will be too late.
Then, it will follow the same fate as 3DTouch: Great idea, no scalability or leverage, mediocre support => no success

I feel the biggest problem that the touch bar has is that it adds extra $ onto the MBP for dubious utility.

Apple tried to mask this price increase by including it in the top end models.

This then infuriated many customers as they had to pay for it to get top end specced models.

Then (like with 3D Touch) meant that there was less room for a bigger battery, so that battery life was also poorer than previous models.

As a side note:

I’ve got a MBP 13 2017 entry level model.

Apart from dreading some of the keys stopping working a day after my AppleCare runs out (!) I’m sort of ok with it. Sort of.

However it’s my first Mac that I’ve not been able to upgrade the memory myself (which I’ve done on both of my previous iMacs).

With the marzipan project the hope is that most general modern apps will remain pretty lightweight going forward (as they’ll be ipad ‘ports’) and I’ll not need any extra memory in the next 4-5 years.

And my 256 GB SSD is using about 50 GB right now so I guess the fact that it’s soldered in won’t be too much of a problem given my usage!

Anyway, I only wanted to use it for light productivity tasks etc so I never for one moment considered buying a TB model. I couldn’t justify the price for dubious utility and it wasn’t critical for me to get as much power as I could.

I felt a little bit strange buying a computer with ‘pro’ in the name, as I self evidently was not using it for pro tasks etc but I kinda had to.

No way was I buying the aging Air and the MB just felt a little too underpowered.

In the end, I was a prime candidate for buying the ultrabook that the MBP has become.

It just feels so weird owning a computer that is designated for ‘pros’, when I’m not a pro - and the computer is arguably not a pro machine either.

 

[Roadstar]

I feel the biggest problem that the touch bar has is that it adds extra $ onto the MBP for dubious utility.

Not only dubious utility, but in some workflows the touchbar replacing the function keys and especially the escape key is downright detrimental to productivity.

 

[bluecoast]

Not only dubious utility, but in some workflows the touchbar replacing the function keys and especially the escape key is downright detrimental to productivity.

Absolutely.

I can touch type and another reason that I didn’t want the TB is that it interferes with my touch typing.

I want to be able to reach up and press the esc key or adjust the volume without looking at the keyboard.

And with touch typing, I don’t even look at the keyboard.

So why would I want something where you absolutely need to look at the keyboard to use it?

And whilst we are at it, let’s mention the ‘smart shortcuts’ that come up on the bottom of the iPad Pro screen whenever you’re using the Smart Keyboard - which require you to reach up and touch the screen to use them.

Precisely the thing that Apple execs say is dumb on a pc and why they’d never make a MB with a touch screen...

 

[Bacillus]

Precisely the thing that Apple execs say is dumb on a pc and why they’d never make a MB with a touch screen...

Apple execs are their own worst parody, these days
Free raincoats for everyone who believes Tim saying Apple is in Ireland for the great weather

 

[bluecoast]

Apple execs are their own worst parody, these days
Free raincoats for everyone who believes Tim saying Apple is in Ireland for the great weather

There’s a lot to admire about Tim Cook - I mean he does an insanely tough job better than 99.99% of us could manage. And Apple hasn’t been doing too badly in the last few years!

However he does have a habit of saying ridiculously scripted PR/marketing statements that aren’t credible.

His worse was a few years ago when he was saying stuff like ‘Why would anyone buy/use a computer’ when he was trying to big up the iPad.

That was patently ridiculous.

Even now (let alone a few years ago) the iPad isn’t a true pc replacement for anything other than light productivity tasks.

And I’d argue that without some sort of indirect input, it’s still more inefficient than the pc form factor for tasks involving working with text ie word processing.

Yes, there are people like Jason S (Six Colors) and Frederico V (Mac Stories) who are flying the flag for productivity on the iPad.

However, when you read what they do to build their workflows, it’s way way harder than using a Mac.

Anyway. TC needs a better scriptwriter!

 

[maflynn]

He struck me as being quite at ease with it, which makes me wonder if this is another case of disconnect between the more tech-savvy users and Apple. Where Apple made a move that resonates with the mass consumer while alienating the more tech-savvy crowd once again.

For every Touchbar action, there is an existing non-touchbar way of doing something. In many if not most cases the non-touchbar action is easier because you don't have to take your eyes off the screen to initiate the action.

My only impression of seeing one in use was on a TV show where Prince William received a FaceTime call from Lady Gaga on his MacBook Pro, and used the touchbar to answer the call.

No, its more about apple rolled out a solution that is in need of a problem. Pure and simple. The touchbar forces people to change how they interact with a computer instead of the computer allowing the user to work the way the want too. Perhaps they felt they needed some sort of touch screen to compete with the convertable notebooks out there, but clearly this is not the solution.

 

[arkitect]

For every Touchbar action, there is an existing non-touchbar way of doing something. In many cases, its easier because you don't have to take your eyes off the screen to initiate the action.

No, its more about apple rolled out a solution that is in need of a problem. Pure and simple. The touchbar forces people to change how they interact with a computer instead of the computer allowing the user to work the way the want too. Perhaps they felt they needed some sort of touch screen to compete with the convertable notebooks out there, but clearly this is not the solution.

Well put.

Over the decades I have grown to "know" where my hotspots are on my keyboards. My eyes on the screen my fingers know (mostly!) where they need to go ad press to activate a function or key stroke combination…

With the touchbar — I am forced every bloody time to take my eyes off the screen — and find the function I need. Oh and sometimes the touchbar has decided the function I need does not have to be displayed so I have to go and get it…

FFS! Apple. It is one of your worst design moves (and there have been some humdingers.)

What next? Completely flat keyboard? Touch typing then goes right out the window.
But at least Tim Cook and Mr Intense Scary Eyes can make a video saying… "Ooooh… unapologetically 0.125mm thinner!"

 

[maflynn]

What next? Completely flat keyboard?

If the current keyboard was embraced and beloved, yes that probably would have been the next step. As it stands, I hear more people hating it then loving it. The one thing you never want to hear from a company known for premium design. "Don't worry you'll get used to it". Apple prides itself on design and having people make execuses like you'll get used to it, flies in the face of great designs. You shouldn't need to get used to it, if it was well designed - just my two cents

 

[0388631]

But on the other hand, @arkitect makes a good point, @maflynn. A flat keyboard with closed off accordions to the sides/outline of the keys may prove useful against spills, and in my case, munching on graham crackers.
[doublepost=1529667125][/doublepost]

With the touchbar — I am forced every bloody time to take my eyes off the screen — and find the function I need. Oh and sometimes the touchbar has decided the function I need does not have to be displayed so I have to go and get it…

What? Muscle memory doesn't help you?

 

[ocnitsa]

I guess I deserved that.

But I meant no offence with the comment above. My point is as it has always been - Apple has new priorities on its plate, and this in turn means they will consequently devote less time and resources to the Mac, and that’s likely going to be the new normal.

Griping and whining may be a good way of letting off some steam, but it is unlikely to change anything. I feel it’s just something we all have to accept.

Apple is clearly innovating in areas such as health and AR, and it’s myopic to argue that they are stagnating just because a single product line has been neglected while ignoring everything else that Apple is doing well.

I get it. The people here care about new Macs and not Apple watches or Animoji. Doesn’t mean Apple isn’t innovative. They simply have chosen to focus on areas you aren’t passionate about.

And that’s just the way it is.

You make this point a lot...the logical conclusion of what you're saying is that there is no point in questioning what we are presented with as reality at any given point. An iPhone with a bigger screen would be great! Remain silent and hope Apple has something like that in development. Wouldn't it be cool for Apple to make a smart Watch?!? Shut up! The keyboard has double the fail rate! Just live with it. iMac Pro isn't what we needed. Don't bother voicing any opposition...accept it.

Why with that rationale would you voice your opinion to us, at all, in this thread? "They are just going to complain, it's something we all have to accept."

This point pretty much makes the forums (and the whole macrumors rationale) meaningless. People SHOULD write what they care about...they should advocate among their community (even if their community aren't the ones pulling the strings) for the things they care about. The alternative is to just heap praise on whatever happens or remain quiet.

Dialogue (even that among customers) is a mode for further understanding...not just to convince one side or the other that you are right...but to come to a new understanding based on that dialogue.

Apple IS (likely) innovating in areas such as health and AR...but ONLY a few are arguing that they are stagnating in general. Focusing your comments on those few is an easy thing to do when many others have given interesting and more robust perspectives that would be a little more difficult for you to meaningfully engage with. Many in this thread are arguing that the Mac (not all of Apple) line is stagnating. I think that point has been pretty fairly established and that you agree with it. You haven't explained, though, why it makes good sense to ignore a 25 billion dollar business (which pays for its own development costs), given the massive revenue handsets create to support their own development and other initiatives of Apple. Even 10 percent of your business is a far cry from "a single product line," which makes it sound unimportant...like some dongle Apple sells in a corner of a rack in their store. It's clear, though, that such characterizations make it easy for you to continue your point as "it has always been," with no development, qualifications, evidence of movement of thought (even if the ultimate perspective hasn't changed).

I agree with Count, at this point, that you are a troll.

 

[Omega Mac]

Muscle memory is a requisite for interactive ergonomics.

It might be fine to lose it all on a phone surface - one that you need a fixed gazed to operate but in the of two surfaces, dual plane reality of laptop/desktop - keyboard/screen ergonomic duality, it can't be ignored or designed away.

Even a fretless string instrument still has very tactile response strings. I'm mindful of those cool but practically useless optical string guitars of the 80's something out of Japan maybe. Fun idea interesting but not mass market.

If Apple released Air guitars they'd probably be the best in the world!

 

[alien3dx]

Muscle memory is a requisite for interactive ergonomics.

It might be fine to lose it all on a phone surface - one that you need a fixed gazed to operate but in the of two surfaces, dual plane reality of laptop/desktop - keyboard/screen ergonomic duality, it can't be ignored or designed away.

Even a fretless string instrument still has very tactile response strings. I'm mindful of those cool but practically useless optical string guitars of the 80's something out of Japan maybe. Fun idea interesting but not mass market.

If mac released Air guitars they'd probably be the best in the world!

working with win and osx same time . . I keep confuse what to type . i need control x badly

 

[Bacillus]

There’s a lot to admire about Tim Cook - I mean he does an insanely tough job better than 99.99% of us could manage. And Apple hasn’t been doing too badly in the last few years!
However he does have a habit of saying ridiculously scripted PR/marketing statements that aren’t credible.
....
However, when you read what they do to build their workflows, it’s way way harder than using a Mac.
Anyway. TC needs a better scriptwriter!

If “TC needs a better scriptwriter!” is THE curation/solution for intolerable behavior towards Jobs’ legacy, i.e. killing the best computer industry that once was, things are in a better state than I originally thought.