Popular Mac Developer Slams Apple for 'Sad State of Macintosh Hardware'

[Zdigital2015]

...and a magsafe port, remember.

So, without external hubs or multiport dongles, a 2015 iMac can support a charger, a second display (HDMI), a fast hard drive (TB 2), an external mouse/keyboard (lets assume they share a USB dongle) and still leave you with a slot for a USB memory stick and a SD card (...there's a nice range of SD cards that fit flush and can be left in semi-permanently, ideal for e.g. shunting your media library or other big, static files off the expensive, fast SSD) and a spare TB2 port for a high-speed device or display - maybe an ethernet dongle if (like me) your workplace's wifi is unreliable and totally outside your control.

On a post-2016 MacBook Pro:

• Charger - scratch one USB-C port

NB: 12" MacBook owners stop reading now - even the MB Air did better than this...​

• Keyboard/mouse (scratch USB Port #2 - oh, and your kb/mouse's USB-2 mini-dongle that used to only stick out 1/4" and could be left in place is now sticking out on a USB-C-to-USB-2 dongle)

NB: non-TB 2016 MBP owners, stop reading now and buy a dock. Make that two if you want to commute from home to work.​

• External display (scratch USB-C port #3 - oh, and read up on some of the troubles people have had with USB-C to HDMI/DisplayPort adapter cables esp. with the 2017 models)
• External HD (scratch USB-C port #4, unless you pay a hefty premium for a HD with TB3 through)

...and, that's all folks - the 2015 still has a TB2 and/or a USB-3 in hand, but you're out and its time to buy a dock. Maybe two if you don't want to shuttle stuff from home to work that you didn't need before. Oh, and its off to the landfill for any spare MacSafe 2 chargers that you've accumulated over the last 6 years so you could leave one at work (BTW, the new USB-C chargers still cost as much, but don't come with the charge cable and extension main cord that you used to get - you could get a 3rd party charger but few people are making ones with the oomph to charge a 15" MBP - get a cheap one if you feel lucky and live in a brick-built house).

End of the world? No - but where a TB dock at home and work for single-port docking was a luxury solution to the first-worls problem of having to plug in a handful of cables every morning, now its a must-have... and, yes, using a laptop to shuttle from home to work, with a large display, keyboard and mouse on each desk is a not uncommon way of working.

So a computer that costs substantially more than its predecessor is (a) only incrementally faster - if at all thanks to extra thermal throttling and (b) worse as a "desktop replacement".

Of course, if you want to connect 4 Thunderbolt 3 devices you're in bandwidth heaven.... assuming your thermally-throttled i7 and ~meh mobile-class GPU can do anything with that much data...




Why wouldn't you? OK, if its mission-critical then maybe you've got a spare in the drawer along with the floppy drive, optical drive and other stuff that you no longer carry around daily...



...an eGPU which immediately obsoletes the sealed-in, no external input display in your iMac (oh and we're assuming that GPUs don't actually need the 16 lanes of direct-to-CPU bandwidth that the internal ones enjoy... now that may be true...)



Right, now add an external synth or two, a keyboard (plus any non-music stuff you have connected), and wham, you're out of USB ports and if you use a hub you've got logic moaning about changing midi devices every time you sleep. OK, so no laptop will have that many ports, but a desktop PC will typically have have 2 on the front, 6 on the back and be able to accept a cheap PCIe card with even more.

C/f iMac - 4 USB 3, 2xUSB-C but scratch one of both of the latter if you want an external display, TB3 hard drive etc. Again - first world problems but we're paying a hefty premium for these systems.

At work, I use a 2015 15" MacBook Pro (top of the line 2.8Ghz, R9 M370X GPU and 1TB of storage). I use two external Dell P2715Q 4K displays, one connected directly to the TB2 port, the other connected to an El Gato TB2 dock. My wired Apple keyboard plugs into the Dock and I use a Bluetooth Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad. I would be using a Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad, but it's not time to replace the keyboard yet.

Without the TB2 Dock, I would only have one USB 3.0 free for use (keyobard plugged into the left USB 3.0 port). I only use flash drives sporadically and I found a dual USB-A/USB-C from Sandisk that works wonderfully.

Using the same dock with my personal 2016 MacBook Pro, I use the Dock with a TB3>TB2 adapter from Apple and a Plugable USB-C to DisplayPort cable, again 4K@60Hz for both. Power is USB-C and 1 port left over for USB devices. I don't miss the MagSafe port, although it was a great invention. Stuff changes, USB-C Power Delivery is and will be more flexible than MagSafe ever thought of being.

I don't use the HDMI port because the 2015 MacBook Pro doesn't support 4K@60Hz, as it's stuck at HDMI 1.4 and so I use DisplayPort for every monitor I have at work and at home, including our HDMI projector in the conference room (dongle).

I have used the SD Card reader from time to time for my Zoom H6 or my m4/3 camera. Its convenient, but not essential to my day in/day out. If I was a professional photographer, I have a couple of options, assuming my camera used SDXC cards. Shoot tethered, connect via a USB-C cable to whatever the camera has on the other end (usually a USB 2.0 or 3.0 Micro-B) or use a dedicated card reader, which many photographers buy anyways.

At home, I use one external display, a Dell P2415Q, so I have a USB-C to DP cable, one USB-C for the Scarlett, one USB-C for power and one USB-C for my USB external hard drives that I purchased a USB-C to USB 3.0 Type Mini-B cable from Amazon for $8.99 each (I bought two). Now I can hook up my Seagate Backup Plus Hub drive for Time Machine, my Transcend card reader or my WD My Passport drive for a Super Duper backup. I don't need an "expensive" Thunderbolt 3 drive, I can always use cheap spinners or I can purchase a superfast Samsung T5 portable SSD or a SanDisk Extreme 900 with USB-C 3.1 Type 2 and get 10Gbps, you get 5Gbps.

At home, I have been all Bluetooth for a while, bought a Magic Keyboard with numeric keypad the day it was announced, Magic TrackPad 2 and a battery powered Magic Mouse.

I considered a Thunderbolt Dock a necessity the day I purchased a 2012 15" MacBook Pro, because there really weren't any cheap Thunderbolt peripherals at that time, which never did get better and I needed more USB ports. At least with Thunderbolt 3, all I need is the right cable and I can have either 4 USB-C ports, 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports or any combo inbetween without a Dock.

True, an eGPU might not have x16 lanes like the iMac or the x8 lanes the MacBook Pro has, but the x4 lanes it does have access to seem to very helpful to those who need it. I don't game on my Mac, I have an Xbox One for that. I will be VERY appreciatve of access to an eGPU, should I want to move to a 5K or an 8K display and not burden the internal GPU. If I ever get proficient enough in Davinci Resolve, and need the extra horsepower, I can add up to 3 eGPUs without needing to build a PC and deal with Windows 10 as my daily driver.

I don't notice my 2016 MacBook Pro throttling back as much as I notice my 2015 spinning up the fans all the way to the max doing the same workload. Both are on stands to maximize airflow under the laptop. I have used cheap stands with USB fans and I have used expensive, trendy aluminum stands for every laptop I have owned since 2008. A stand is essential for airflow and ergonomics, it is not a luxury.

You can't blame anyone but Intel for the lack of significant performance bumps from the 2015 to 2016 MacBook Pros. Once Apple upgrades the MacBook Pro to the 6-core H-series CPUs, we may see some nice performance gains. I suspect it will be closer to October before that happens. Asus just announced its new ZenBook Pro with 6-core CPUs at Computex 2018, but no on sale date and no pricing was given.

Any thin and light laptop, including the 2015 MacBook Pro is going to have to make due with a mobile-class GPU unless you like lugging around something thicker and heavier, along with the beefier power supply, becasue you aren't getting more than about 2-3 hours with a 1060, a 1070 or 1080 onboard.

I can add a MIDI synth to my Scarlett interface or if I really need more ports, I can always add an external PCIe box to a 2015 15" MacBook Pro or a 2016 15" MacBook Pro and put in a PCIe card with USB 3.0 Type-A ports. The nice thing about the 2016/2017 MacBook Pro is that the link between the PCIe box and the Thunderbolt port is twice the bandwidth. Also, because Thunderbolt 3/USB-C can deliver power, either the eGPU or the PCIe box will charge my MacBook Pro and I can reclaim a TB3/USB-C port for other uses.

Please don't try to change the subject by mentioning a PC, as it's not germane to the argument unless you want to do your work in Windows. If I really need more USB ports, I have a bevy of options.

To each his own. I think the 2015 MBP is a great laptop, but I am not going to miss it when the next lease at work is started and we move to TB MacBook Pros.

 

[theluggage]

Steve Jobs was widely quoted in 1996, from a Fortune magazine interview as saying, "If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth — and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago."

...and he went on prove himself wrong by dragging the Mac from the verge of extinction (the late 90s were a Windows-only wasteland - heck, even I was using Windows then) to the point where, at least, Apple were in the same league as any one of the big PC manufacturers.

Had he stuck strictly to that 17-year old matrix of 4 computer models you're touting, Apple would be much a smaller company or completely out of business by now.

No, had he not produced the iPod, Apple would be much smaller or out of business by now. Nobody here is denying that. The product matrix evolved, but is still valid - you can even fit the iPod range into it.

...and, guess what, the "new big thing", the iPod, rather than killing off the Mac, actually boosted Mac sales - go Google "the halo effect". The iPod is virtually dead now - had Jobs not nailed the next next big thing with the iPhone then Apple would be relying on the Mac for survival (and, although they'd be a lot smaller, they might survived - the Mac business is only tiny when compared to the iPhone).

That moment in time ended the day Steve (and Apple) introduced the iMac, with it all-in-one form, two (2) USB 1.1 ports, 10/100 Ethernet and 56K modem.

...but the iMac wasn't a replacement for the entire Mac range - it was one cell of the "product matrix" and the other cells continued to be actively developed - the consumer laptop (iBook) the pro laptop (Powerbook) and the pro desktop (G3/G4/G5 Tower).

A major reason for the Intel switch (a lot of effort for a dead-for-6-years product, no?) was because the pro Mac users were demanding a G5 laptop but IBM/Motorola weren't interested in making laptop-friendly G5 chips. Yes, the G4 Cube was a flop (mainly due to a manufacturing flaw) - but it was eventually replaced by the Mini, which was certainly not a flop - and one of its purposes was to get punters into the Apple Store by showing them something with a fairly low price tag (...after that, its up to the staff to earn their bonus by upselling them).

And, strangely, under Mr Steve "no user servicable parts inside" Jobs, the "pro" towers became the easiest to open-up-and-work-on PCs ever - on the Cheesgrater design, just flip a catch, flip off the side panel, yank a drive out (no cables) stick in a PCIe card or a RAM stick... no screwdriver required. Its almost as if Jobs was actually quite smart and understood the difference between mass-market and pro machines.

Sometimes it seems like Jobs wrote down his wisdom on 10 tablets of stone, then the new management smashed them and just picked out the bits they liked (...sealed unit... ...thinner.... ...next big thing....)

However, I sincerely doubt its the second coming of the Mac.

Currently, the Mac hasn't gone away. It doesn't - and never will - bring in iPhone levels of revenue, but it does make money and there's a chance that it will still be making money once the iPhone bubble is burst.

...because, although I know a lot of people with phones and tablets... they carry them around all the time, take them to meetings for note-taking, take them on vacation to keep up with email and take photos... when they actually sit down to get some work done, they still reach for their 'proper' personal computer.

 

[lec0rsaire]

If Apple totally believed in USB-C how come its phones and tablets don't use it? How come all it's accessories come with USB-A cables? Apple made a mistake by completely removing USB-A from its laptops and it knows it. The time to go 100% USB-C will be 2020 at the earliest, not 2016.

Because USB-C is thicker than lightning and lightning is already reversible. Tons of people also have lightning docks and accessories and people always complain when they get rid of a port. I think Apple will eliminate lightning and not replace it with any port in the future. iOS devices will connect wirelessly to macs.

 

[Feenician]

Sorry - not sure how true that is: Apple chose a LQ Chip in the end for the 2016MBP. Everybody was arguing that Apple was waiting for that "HQ chip" and it was there but Apple chose not to use it.

That wasn't Intels mistake.

What's an LQ chip? There's U, M, QM, MQ and HQ.

Pretty sure the 15" got the 6700HQ, 6820HQ and 6920HQ unless you have a source that says otherwise.

 

[Naaaaak]

Steve wanted to change the world, Tim just wants to profit from it.

Steve was big about profitability, too. It was core to turning the company around.

From what I recall, Steve didn't care about the shareholders. I seem to recall a video of him stating "the stock price will do whatever it wants". Contrast this with Tim Cook, who held multiple meetings and put Apple in debt to buy back shares.

Steve cared about the products as a means to profitability.
Tim Cook doesn't care about Mac people.

 

[Zdigital2015]

What's an LQ chip? There's U, M, QM, MQ and HQ.

Pretty sure the 15" got the 6700HQ, 6820HQ and 6920HQ unless you have a source that says otherwise.

Yes, Apple chose the 6700HQ, 6820HQ and 6920HQ, which according to Intel's ARK, were introduced in Q3 of 2015. Unlike previous MacBook Pros, these CPUs did not contain Intel Iris Graphics, which I suspect is what caused the delay in MacBook Pros being refreshed at the end of of 2015 or early 2016. The HQ CPUs that Apple historically would have chosen, the 6770HQ, 6870HQ and the 6970HQ, all with Iris Pro Graphics 580 were introduced in Q1 of 2016. I would love to know what changed to make Apple choose the HD Graphics 530 versions of the CPUs. Was it the added cost of the TouchBar and so they opted for the cheaper CPUs, knowing that they were going to give them all discrete GPUs anyways and eliminate the low end $1999 MacBook Pro? Did the decision to move to AMD Radeon Pro GPUs come late in the dev cycle? Did the Iris Graphics versions use more power, or generate too much additional heat for the new enclosure? We will never know. I suspect it was either Intel's wavering commitment to Iris Graphics that pushed Apple to make a late design decision and/or AMD couldn't get the Radeon Pro into volume shipments until Q4 of 2016.

 

[theluggage]

Using the same dock with my personal 2016 MacBook Pro, I use the Dock with a TB3>TB2 adapter from Apple

OK, so you already had a $200 TB2 dock (plus $50 for the TB2-TB3 adapter). That helps.

Any thin and light laptop, including the 2015 MacBook Pro is going to have to make due with a mobile-class GPU

...and the problem is that thin-and-light laptops or ultra-thin all-in-ones (with mobile class GPUs unless you have $5000 to burn... assuming the iMac Pro GPU isn't 'mobile class') are the only thing that Apple offers.

I can always add an external PCIe box to a 2015 15" MacBook Pro or a 2016 15" MacBook Pro and put in a PCIe card with USB 3.0 Type-A ports.

...another $200 box, another wire (even if you have a desktop) to add a $50 USB card that would just plug in to a desktop mini-tower.

Please don't try to change the subject by mentioning a PC, as it's not germane to the argument unless you want to do your work in Windows.

Why not mention the main competition? Unless you're tied in to Final Cut or Logic, most of the major Mac apps have Windows versions - apparently, Windows is this quite popular operating system that lots of people actually manage to get their work done in and that has even more software than the Mac... who'd have thunk it?

(You can even have a Linux subsystem running within Windows now - one of the reasons I switched to Mac OS X was the Unix underpinnings which are great for web development).

Now, if I didn't prefer Mac OS I wouldn't still be using a Mac - but Mac hardware is becoming more and more of a compromise, whereas with a PC I can order exactly what I want - either DIY (I've assembled a few PCs in my time) build-to-order (plenty of places do custom PCs if you can't DIY) or off-the-peg from the likes of Dell, HP or Lenovo (who's ranges are probably too big). A dozen USB ports? Easy. NVIDIA GPU? No problem. Top-end i7 with a massive silent cooler that wouldn't fit in an iMac - or maybe water-cooled - check. Maybe not much cheaper than Mac if I spec it up like-for-like with, say, an iMac Pro but maybe I don't need iMac Pro specs if I just want (say) an i7 plus mid-range desktop-class GPU and a dozen USB ports, or a 32" 4k display instead of 27" 5k.

Now, I don't ever expect to see build-your-own as a Mac option (other than Hackintosh, and I'd rather not sweat every time I install a software update) but as the choice on offer from Apple diminishes to "ultrabook, slimline all-in-one or something last updated in 2013" vs. "pretty much whatever you want but not quite as pretty" for PC, the level of compromise can only go so far. My last decision to go for Mac was close (and only went Mac because the 2017 iMacs weren't bad + I had good reason to switch from laptop to desktop).

 

[Zdigital2015]

...and he went on prove himself wrong by dragging the Mac from the verge of extinction (the late 90s were a Windows-only wasteland - heck, even I was using Windows then) to the point where, at least, Apple were in the same league as any one of the big PC manufacturers.



No, had he not produced the iPod, Apple would be much smaller or out of business by now. Nobody here is denying that. The product matrix evolved, but is still valid - you can even fit the iPod range into it.

...and, guess what, the "new big thing", the iPod, rather than killing off the Mac, actually boosted Mac sales - go Google "the halo effect". The iPod is virtually dead now - had Jobs not nailed the next next big thing with the iPhone then Apple would be relying on the Mac for survival (and, although they'd be a lot smaller, they might survived - the Mac business is only tiny when compared to the iPhone).



...but the iMac wasn't a replacement for the entire Mac range - it was one cell of the "product matrix" and the other cells continued to be actively developed - the consumer laptop (iBook) the pro laptop (Powerbook) and the pro desktop (G3/G4/G5 Tower).

A major reason for the Intel switch (a lot of effort for a dead-for-6-years product, no?) was because the pro Mac users were demanding a G5 laptop but IBM/Motorola weren't interested in making laptop-friendly G5 chips. Yes, the G4 Cube was a flop (mainly due to a manufacturing flaw) - but it was eventually replaced by the Mini, which was certainly not a flop - and one of its purposes was to get punters into the Apple Store by showing them something with a fairly low price tag (...after that, its up to the staff to earn their bonus by upselling them).

And, strangely, under Mr Steve "no user servicable parts inside" Jobs, the "pro" towers became the easiest to open-up-and-work-on PCs ever - on the Cheesgrater design, just flip a catch, flip off the side panel, yank a drive out (no cables) stick in a PCIe card or a RAM stick... no screwdriver required. Its almost as if Jobs was actually quite smart and understood the difference between mass-market and pro machines.

Sometimes it seems like Jobs wrote down his wisdom on 10 tablets of stone, then the new management smashed them and just picked out the bits they liked (...sealed unit... ...thinner.... ...next big thing....)



Currently, the Mac hasn't gone away. It doesn't - and never will - bring in iPhone levels of revenue, but it does make money and there's a chance that it will still be making money once the iPhone bubble is burst.

...because, although I know a lot of people with phones and tablets... they carry them around all the time, take them to meetings for note-taking, take them on vacation to keep up with email and take photos... when they actually sit down to get some work done, they still reach for their 'proper' personal computer.

Apple engineered some pretty great computers back in the early 2000's, but even then they began cutting costs, because they knew the computer was eventually going to take a back seat to something else....how many years did the Power Mac G3 and G4 use the exact same plastic clamshell casing? Four years. The post Titanium aluminum PowerBook and MacBook Pros? Another 5 years. The PowerMac G5 and Mac Pro? 9 years. The Unibody MacBook Pro? 8 years. The MacBook Air? 8 years. the current iMac? 9 years if you count the thick and thin versions, 6 if you don't. You can argue the designs are timeless, but if you listen to people complain about bezels and how long the design has been around, that's your clue that Apple shifted its focus a long time ago.

Of course the iPod boosted Mac sales, because you either had to have a Mac or a PC to get music onto the damned thing. For the first few years, you had to have a Mac. No one needs a Mac now to make the iPhone or the iPad useful. My wife has never connected her iPad Pro to a computer and never will, nor will she need to do so. It is her computer, for all intents and purposes. Halo effect mitigated.

I lived through the halo effect, and it was real to a certain extent, but it had just as much to do with how awful Windows XP was at the time with a new nasty virus every other week, some sly pricing decisions and the creation of the Apple Store. While not a new concept, it was done in a way that no one had done before. Smart industrial design and innovative store design helped too.

Trust me, I lived through both the Motorola to PowerPC migration and the PowerPC to Intel migration and thanked God everyday that Apple had the sense to move to Intel after IBM and Motorola proved just how inept they were at volume production of CPUS. Not to mention their complete apathy towards Apple. Motorola got what they deserved.

Sure, there will always be a place for computers and Macs for certain tasks, but the absolute need for other is growing smaller every year. The success of the iPhone and the iPad reinforce it every single day.

My beef isn't with Apple when it comes to the current iMac or the MacBook Pro, I think they are great computers. The mini and the MacPro, however, are a completely different story. I think most of the people in these forums would be very satisfied to see both these product lines get updates. I, for one, still cannot fathom how Apple cannot be embarrassed by selling a 4 year old and a 5 year old computers, but I digress.

 

[Count Blah]

Well, at any one time, Apple only has so many people they can deploy, and all other things equal, one more person working on the Mac means one less person working on some other initiative that Apple evidently deems just as important, if not more.

Apple may be a huge company hiring a ton of people, but that's also because they have a ton of projects on their plate, so I guess the two cancel each other out.

Just STOP already with the excuses.

Why do you come here, a thread for people to lament about how Apple's choices has screwed them over, and post excuse after excuse after excuse for why it's happening?

We know why it's happening ..

• Apple does not value the folks posting in this thread
• Apple prioritizes thinness for the Starbucks crowd, over people who would benefit from the PRO machines of the past
• Apple chooses to prioritize the development of *moji's over the technology that fuels their iOS $$$ baby
• Apple pours orders of magnitude more money into R&D of 10+ year future projects, than keeping certain Mac lines, within 4 cycles of the latest CPU release cycle
• "What's a computer?"
• "Why would you buy a PC anymore?" When the device he's hawking can't develop software for itself, nor the iPhone - delusional!!!

We KNOW that, so there is no need for you to come here, trolling us about it, non-stop!

 

[dirt_farmer]

Apple does not value the folks posting in this thread

• Apple prioritizes thinness for the Starbucks crowd, over people who would benefit from the PRO machines of the past
• Apple chooses to prioritize the development of *moji's over the technology that fuels their iOS $$$ baby
• Apple pours order of magnitude more money into R&D of 10+ year projects, than keeping certain Mac lines, within 4 cycles of the latest CPU release cycle
• "What's a computer?"

PREACH

 

[Michael Goff]

I still cannot fathom how an ipad can replace, theoretically, a laptop without any mouse support...
[doublepost=1529686608][/doublepost]

You base your comment on the fact that pros users are only the developers...which is not the case...

That just shows you lack imagination.

 

[extrachrispy]

By Apple's normal lifespan terms of hardware, the current Mac Pro will be "unsupported/obsolete" by Apple before it's replaced. And Apple has already obsoleted the only Mac Pro people still want, the cheese graters. Their attention to the pro and prosumer market seriously sucks. Sad.

The cMP 3,1 has fallen off the end, though @dosdude1 and others have done yeoman work to keep them alive (mine is running High Sierra 10.13.5 at the office right now). You can't put an RX480 or RX580 in it (the High Sierra drivers require SSE4 support that the CPUs lack), but you can put a 5770 in it and drive a 4K monitor without doing any driver gimmickry at all. It won't be suitable for gaming, and likely not for any heavy graphics work, but for a coder, it works pretty well.

The cMP 4,1 and 5,1 will still run an unpatched High Sierra, though you need to flash the 4,1 to 5,1.

I bought a maxed-out-on-RAM dual-socket 5,1 late last year, for less than the cost of a base model trash can. Apple will have to come out with something truly compelling in terms of price/performance next year to pry my wallet open.

 

[pipis2010]

That just shows you lack imagination.

Please do tell how on Earth it is easier to use Excel, Powerpoint, even Word and similar office apps without mouse and only with touch - and don’t get me started on the disastrous presentations on stage where they just insert a freaking photo or some text, which is a complete joke. I tried it, but to me it’s not efficient and complete time-wasting process. Then again maybe I am just weird...

For people who have used mice for over 20 years and they have basically become the extension of their hands, I doubt it will be easy. I am talking about specific software of course, not all programs...but office-heavy applications are not developed with the touch in mind, even on iPad. Then again who would open a hundred/thousand Excel cells sheet on an iPad...since, the iPad is supposed to replace a computer - yeah right!

 

[Michael Goff]

Please do tell how on Earth it is easier to use Excel, Powerpoint, even Word and similar office apps without mouse and only with touch - and don’t get me started on the disastrous presentations on stage where they just insert a freaking photo or some text, which is a complete joke. I tried it, but to me it’s not efficient and complete time-wasting process. Then again maybe I am just weird...

For people who have used mice for over 20 years and they have basically become the extension of their hands, I doubt it will be easy. I am talking about specific software of course, not all programs...but office-heavy applications are not developed with the touch in mind, even on iPad. Then again who would open a hundred/thousand Excel cells sheet on an iPad...since, the iPad is supposed to replace a computer - yeah right!

If my eyes rolled any harder, they'd go flying from my skull. Did you really just dismiss the iPad as a laptop replacement based on Excel, PowerPoint, and Word?

 

[Aldaris]

Please do tell how on Earth it is easier to use Excel, Powerpoint, even Word and similar office apps without mouse and only with touch - and don’t get me started on the disastrous presentations on stage where they just insert a freaking photo or some text, which is a complete joke. I tried it, but to me it’s not efficient and complete time-wasting process. Then again maybe I am just weird...

For people who have used mice for over 20 years and they have basically become the extension of their hands, I doubt it will be easy. I am talking about specific software of course, not all programs...but office-heavy applications are not developed with the touch in mind, even on iPad. Then again who would open a hundred/thousand Excel cells sheet on an iPad...since, the iPad is supposed to replace a computer - yeah right!

Try doing an architecture drawing without a mouse-seriously try. AutoCAD on iOS is great for field revisions and the like-but murder me now if I were to do one from scratch on an iPad.

(Apple apologists will just say “that’s what the pencil is for...”)

 

[Michael Goff]

Try doing an architecture drawing without a mouse-seriously try. AutoCAD on iOS is great for field revisions and the like-but murder me now if I were to do one from scratch on an iPad.

(Apple apologists will just say “that’s what the pencil is for...”)

People.who bring up facts are apologists in your world.

 

[Abazigal]

If my eyes rolled any harder, they'd go flying from my skull. Did you really just dismiss the iPad as a laptop replacement based on Excel, PowerPoint, and Word?

What he is basically saying is that the iPad can’t be a computer replacement for him because it can’t handle office easily.

The problem here then comes when one assumes that their use case is representative of everyone else, when it’s apparent that different people have different workflow, and there certainly are people using the iPad for productivity.

Here’s one anecdote.

https://thesweetsetup.com/losing-my-ipad/

Without an iPad, the joy of using a device doesn’t exist to the same extent. I still have an iMac, but since I lost the iPad and have had to use the iMac full-time again, I’m starting to feel the desktop’s limitations.

With a Mac, you’re forced to mouse over everything, disconnected from your work as you click on things from afar — all this while sitting in exactly the right position as you’re chained to the desk.

The iPad helps me work better, it helps work not feel like work, and it frees me from the desk to use technology where I please.

 

[jinnyman]

What he is basically saying is that the iPad can’t be a computer replacement for him because it can’t handle office easily.

The problem here then comes when one assumes that their use case is representative of everyone else, when it’s apparent that different people have different workflow, and there certainly are people using the iPad for productivity.

Here’s one anecdote.

https://thesweetsetup.com/losing-my-ipad/

You know Abazigal. I don't know your occupation, but unless you are a clerk doing emails only, you need a mouse and keyboard to work effectively. I agree that iPad Pro can be a pretty handy tool to supplement.

Only way ipad can be a prime tool is if you only require simple writing, your size of data is small, and do not need to edit often, or if you are on-move marketing guy. The vast majority of office forks who have to use a proper office tools such as MS office (I'm not even mentioning pro-specific applications such as Navis, Autocad, Ansys all that stuff) require a mouse, and I'm certain my view is pretty representative given the sales figures and market share of MS office, professional apps, and types of job available in this country compared to sales figure of iPad Pro.

Adding a mouse support is not hard, and I don't understand why Apple, one of the forerunner of mouse adoptation, is so reluctant to adopt. Touch interface and mouse interface can co-exist. No tool is more effective when it comes to editing and selecting context of data. Touch interface can never reach effectiveness and accuracy of a mouse because, well, your finger is always bigger.

 

[tex210]

May not apply, but has anyone seen the blackberry phone where the physical QWERTY keyboard acts just like the on screen keyboard...

(edit- of an iPad)

...“mouse” around, acting as a touchpad? Also, my little zag keyboard has arrow keys and tab keys, and that’s on an iPad mini. Some people use trackballs(I thought they were so cool), some might even still use that little eraser thing I never liked. But then again, I was an arcade kid.

 

[Abazigal]

You know Abazigal. I don't know your occupation, but unless you are a clerk doing emails only, you need a mouse and keyboard to work effectively. I agree that iPad Pro can be a pretty handy tool to supplement.

I am a school teacher. I have an iMac at home for heavy lifting, while my iPad is mainly used in school. It’s really nice for annotating on pdf documents using the Apple Pencil. It’s awesome for mobility, ease of use and battery life. And for a while, it was a lot faster and more versatile than the work computer my school issued me.

My MacBook Air has basically fallen into disuse.

I concede that the iPad still isn’t ideal for working on spreadsheets, but there are many occupations that don’t revolve around working on documents in an office. I won’t go so far as to claim that you can get everything done on an iPad alone (even I can’t), but my goal is to push to the iPad as far as I can and migrate as many tasks as I can from my Mac to iOS.

I think the article I linked to raises a very interesting point - joy of usage. Yes, maybe I can brute-force my way through certain tasks faster on my iMac, but there’s just something about getting certain tasks done on my iPad that is more enjoyable and pleasurable, even if I do end up expending a little more time and energy.

 

[theluggage]

but even then they began cutting costs, because they knew the computer was eventually going to take a back seat to something else...

I'm going to go with Occam's Razor here and assume that the aim of any cost-cutting was to raise margins and make more (or, immediately after Jobs returned, any) cash...

the current iMac? 9 years if you count the thick and thin versions, 6 if you don't.

Well, its pretty contrived not to count the thick & thin versions, since they were radically different.

but if you listen to people complain about bezels and how long the design has been around, that's your clue that Apple shifted its focus a long time ago.

But this thread is not about people complaining about thick bezels or 5-year-old case designs. What most of the complainants here actually want is 2012 rMBPs, 2010 Mac Minis, 2009 17" MBPs and 2006 Cheesegraters upgraded with modern CPUs and GPUs because those designs were good, they were small & light enough and the work they were doing with those systems hasn't gone away or changed that much.

Yes, people complained when the now-beloved 2012 rMBP came out, but that didn't go on for two years (people forget that A: in return for losing optical drives and ethernet, the rMBP added a second TB2/mDP and HDMI and B: at the same time they updated the old-style MBPs to the latest CPUs so anybody who didn't like the changes had a year or so to get an up-to-date machine). The fact that, in 2018, many people still don't like the 2016 designs suggests that something is different here. Oh, plus the 2013 nMP and 2014 Mac Mini still being sold with original specs that weren't even cutting edge at the time.

The problem here then comes when one assumes that their use case is representative of everyone else, when it’s apparent that different people have different workflow, and there certainly are people using the iPad for productivity.

The only people I see doing that in this thread are the Apple-can-do-no-wrong defenders who can't seem to accept that other people have workflows that don't work so well on iPads or ultrabooks with USB-C ports.

The Tim Cook quote behind some of this frustration was, I believe, "Why would you buy a PC anymore?" (where, in context, PC meant 'conventional laptop/desktop' rather than Windows) - no understanding about different workflows was apparent there.

No one here is yelling "scrap the iPad" or "stop working on iOS/MacOS interoperability". I have an iPad. It's great for some things, like browsing the web from a comfy chair, taking notes in meetings without hiding behind a huge laptop and various other tasks that work well with touchscreens or the pencil (since Apple refuses to incorporate touchscreens in Macs based on the false dichotomy that you'd then have to use touch/pencil for everything). However, if I (e.g.) see a post that I need to reply to, or an email that needs an extensive answer I get up and go to my desktop with a proper keyboard, trackpad and mouse and dual displays where it is vastly quicker, easier and more efficient to type, edit, select/cut/copy/paste, pop up other windows for reference etc.

 

[LordVic]

they were small & light enough and the work they were doing with those systems hasn't gone away or changed that much.

this is the key point. Apple has attempted redesign when and how you use a computer.

most of the world doesn't work the same way. There's nothing wrong with the thin and lights being thin and light for general consumer usage

the problem is they also made the pro devices thin and lights. Removed capabilities and options. Apple's computer lineup tends to feel more like "Consumer THin and Light, Consumer Plus thin and light".

When apple used to call something "pro", it used to mean pro. Not necessarily in pure power, But in scalability. To me slapping the pro/professional moniker on an item implies that the use of that device is modifiable and capable of being scaled and geared to the work it's being intended for. The cheese grater mac pro was the pure definition of this with it's customization options and dependability. This way the pro machines can be adapted to thousands of different workloads.

Today's "pro" machines are just slightly fancier upscaled version of their consumer lineup.

 

[Naimfan]

Let's just say that Apple's hardware offerings do not match up with what I need. And that its lineup used to.

I don't give a damn that the new MBP is thinner and 8 ounces (15"), but I do care that every single one has seen the keyboard fail due to an inability to dissipate heat. I don't care that the tcMP takes up 1/8 the volume of the cMP; I do care that it cannot be expanded, uses proprietary graphics cards that were **** even when new (and that fail regularly), etc.

Macs are now, sadly, abysmal value.

 

[Frank Dalton]

To all the MacBook Pro users here, is the touchbar really that without merit for you?

The touchbar aggravates me to no end. It ticks me off *every single day* because I *just want a physical escape key and my function keys*. It's a gimmick. I don't care about controlling FaceTime or any of the other stupid (to me, at least) use cases they have for it.

Combined with the mindbogglingly stupid arrow key layout, the overall craptastic keyboard feel, the fact that I had to shell out over $150 in dongles to actually connect non-USB C peripherals (which literally *all of them are*) and to be able to plug in the meeting room HDMI projectors at work, well... for me the writing is on the wall. Folks with PC notebooks can just stroll into the room and connect with their HDMI port but I had to head to the Apple store before my presentation to donate money to Tim Cook so I could connect a "professional" notebook to a standard HDMI projector.

Apple's WWDC keynote didn't help alleviate any of my fears about the declining state of the Mac either with 75% of the presentation spent on nonsense like new iOS emoji features. And the Mac - barely rating a mention all the way at the end - well, it's big new "pro focus" is... a dark mode and desktop file stacks? Huh? Other operating systems have been themable for decades and people are fawning over the dark mode scraps Apple is throwing at the crowd. Hell, pre-OS X we had great system extensions like Kaleidoscope to theme the system to our heart's content. You could have a "dark mode" on System 7.5 in 1998 but 20 years later I'm supposed to be impressed with Federighi's "pro focused" dark mode?

So I bought a ThinkPad for myself. I installed a Linux distro with KDE (there is nothing I really need Windows for, though I am able to run it with excellent performance in a VM in case I ever do). As soon as I'm done with the iPhone app development project I'm tasked with at work and go back to my usual web app duties, I will chuck the MBP in a drawer.

/end rant
[doublepost=1529772572][/doublepost]

The problem here then comes when one assumes that their use case is representative of everyone else, when it’s apparent that different people have different workflow, and there certainly are people using the iPad for productivity.

Who is assuming anything? Some of us are just describing why Apple no longer makes professional computers *for our use cases*, not anyone else's. I'm sure Tim Cook uses his iPad perfectly well for his own productivity tasks, which is probably a large contributor to Apple's inability to see that they aren't actually making professional computers anymore.

 

[KPandian1]

I do agree that touchbar adoption seems to have been lacklustre at best.
To all the MacBook Pro users here, is the touchbar really that without merit for you?

The best and worst description of the Touch Bar is easily that "it's a gimmick". On a "Pro" machine, no less!