Reddit has made it clear that they more focused on an IPO than the user experience (look no further than their own mobile app) and a good portion of users will abandon the platform because of this. They're on the Robinhood trajectory.
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Popular Reddit App Apollo Shutting Down on June 30
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I've made it obvious I'm against the change and I'm a lifetime subscriber to Apollo. That said reddit does have the right to change their policy on 3rd party apps, including eliminating them. I would characterize a choice like that to be a major mistake that could cost them users but it's a choice they can make. Where this goes off the rails is choosing to eliminate 3rd party apps with only 30 days warning (because obviously these prices ELIMINATE 3rd apps as paying the prices is untenable) ... that is unethical and makes them bad guys. It hurts people who have spent years working on apps that helped build their service and leaves them unemployed, owning money back to customers who prepaid them for services, and more. It hurts every customer of these apps who now has to relearn an inferior app to continuing use reddit, or hopefully make a choice to just not use reddit at all.
I'll reserve evil for things even worse than business decisions but I agree there is no way to look at their treatment of 3rd party apps and their customers who love them as anything less than wrong.
Not just an insane rate, but an insane rate with just 30 days notice before Christian would start getting charged. When Apple announced they were cutting off the Dark Sky API, they provided 30 months notice.
The actions of the Reddit CEO from what I'm reading are pretty bad too. Scroll down to the CEO parts.
Reddit BUILT THE API! They offered it for free! Why? Because the 3rd party apps helped their customers and brought more people to Reddit! How is that a free ride as if those developers were doing something wrong all this time? It was a mutual aid society. Reddit has the right to start asking for money if they want, but the 30 days notice and prices make this nothing less than a no warning, 1 month shutdown, of all 3rd party apps. That is ethically wrong. If Reddit doesn't want 3rd party apps I'd argue it is still a bad decision but they could have avoided the ethical issues by offering lets say a 12 month sunset of the API during which time long running reddit apps could notify their customers, allow subscriptions to end at their natural terminations, and allow developers time to find their next jobs.
It's really not.
He used an API Reddit was happy to offer for free. Reddit offered it for free because they benefitted from users engaging with the platform through third-party apps, much like Twitter did back in the day.
Nor was he ever asked to.
Arguably yes, his app made it easier for people to use Reddit, increasingly the likelihood that they use the app and contribute content (you know, the entire value prop for the platform).
Not an argument anyone is making, so I don't know why you think this is a valid argument.
It's not a bug if it's an intentional symbiotic relationship. Apollo benefited from Reddit, Reddit benefitted from Apollo (and all other third-party app devs).
The complaint isn't even that they're charging for the API, this is something most informed users agree should happen. The dev even acknowledges that it's in his best interest to pay for API use. The issue is with the pricing structure. Reddit is asking for more than 20x the amount they can reasonably expect to generate from an API call. Imgur, an example provided by the Apollo dev that sees similar API calls for arguably heavier traffic since it's all image-based charges $166 for what Reddit is proposing charging $12K for. This is basically straight from Musk's failed Twitter playbook. You can see it explained far better than I'm able to here.
It's blatant greed because they need to juice their numbers before they their IPO.
They also benefit from not paying moderators, etc to manage communities, many of whom rely on third-party tools using the API, and many of these tools will quickly go away.
To be clear, Reddit is a private company and they can charge what they like, but they themselves communicated to developers that their API pricing was going to be reasonable and based in reality. It clearly is not. As a result, end-users are being affected because the tools they use to interact with Reddit are going away, leaving only first-party options that are markedly worse. This is why most people are unhappy. It's a clear lack of care for the users whose content is the entire value of the platform.
There, now you can't feign ignorance and continue your bad-faith arguments. You're welcome.
How much do you think Apollo contributed towards user engagement on Reddit? How many new users signed up because the experience was better than what Reddit was willing to offer?
Christian utilized APIs provided by Reddit and now they're strong-arming him along with other app developers who helped contribute to the relevance of Reddit. This is about serving ads.
I agree with both sides. I think that Apollo was definitely getting the better end of the stick with the licensing arrangement, however, that was likely intentional to help Reddit grow. The transition to a model where Reddit needs to generate more revenue vs being focused on growth is understandable. However, the harsh hockey stick transition could have been done better.
All in all though, the harsh truth is that with Apollo being around 2.6% of the active daily Reddit users I doubt this will even be much of a blip on the radar for Reddit.
All in all though, the harsh truth is that with Apollo being around 2.6% of the active daily Reddit users I doubt this will even be much of a blip on the radar for Reddit.
Those recordings of the conversation about the threat was really smart.
I've read the post. I absolutely am on the side of the developer of Apollo however the actions you are describing about the Reddit CEO are him telling his employees that Apollo was blackmailing Reddit for $10 million to go away quietly. Having listened to the tapes provided I don't think the developer of Apollo was clear when he stated to the CEO that since Reddit feels the opportunity costs lost were $20 million a year he could make Apollo "go quietly" for $10 million. What he was saying (in an incredulous tone that probably I couldn't have avoided either, but should have been more professional) was why don't you buy Apollo for $10 million and you'll still make $10 million over the next year and everyone will be happy. While it was somewhat clarified on the call afterwards and in fact the CEO apologized for the misunderstanding I think the CEO was left feeling Apollo's developer was offering him a price to "go quietly away" vs. rile up the reddit users. In hindsight a more professional offer to sell should have been made, ie. "Because my app's revenue can't support the new API costs, I propose selling the technology stack of Apollo to Reddit, including my personal services in the transition for a period of 6 months, allowing you to incorporate services from my app into the native application to satisfy your many reddit users who rely on unique Apollo features. Is this something you would be interested in and if so we can discuss pricing?" Instead, because everyone is human, some of the comments made on the call by both parties were clouded by emotion and sarcasm.
Popular third-party Reddit app Apollo is shutting down as a result of Reddit's new API pricing | TechCrunch
The popular third-party Reddit app Apollo is shutting down on June 30, 2023, as a direct result of Reddit's recently announced new API pricing plans.
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if this isn't a wake up call for the suits at Reddit HQ, then they are in for a rude awaking
You can't have it both ways. You rejected all my points simply based on the argument that
1) The API is free
2) No one asked him to pay so therefore he is in the right
Good. In that is the case, then reddit is free to change whatever the **** they want. Since it was free and there was no agreed exchange of any kind. They outrageous pricing is only ridiculous if you interpret that to be a fee they want you to pay. It's clearly not the case. They don't want you to pay. They want to get rid of apps. Period.
And again it's entirely within their rights or even ethical to come out and say "NO I DONT WANT THIRD PARTY APPS NO MORE". That's fine.
There. Now you can finally understand how corporations work and what's considered legal and illegal in America.
Well that's the deal isn't it? You get to ride along for free (and generate 2.8M dollars for yourself) and in exchange I get to keep the users.
It's how commissions work isn't it? You hire a sales guy. He brings in a customer. You pay him, but you keep the customer for life. What's the issue here?
Apollo… Tweetbot
man this sucks
man this sucks
the unexpected and sudden termination of the deal that harms both the developer and the users of the app. reddit is making a mistake getting rid of 3rd party apps but where it because unethical and bad is doing it with 30 days warning to developers and users after it being standard practice for years and decades.
Why do you keep bringing up legality like that’s a point anyone is arguing?
Every time similar “complain” comes up this sort of narrative comes up. A fundamental and complete misunderstanding, or lack of understanding, of The true issue behind the app shutdown. Not to mention the comparison makes no sense and doesn't address the issue whatsoever. I’ve already seen enough of this narrative on Epic v Apple saga and hope this sort of baseless accusation will eventually go away.
As large as apollo? One man or a very small team (I have no idea about apollo dev team size) is considered “large” in your book? And “ride on the back of a larger company”? You have never checked how apollo goes to today I assume, and instead accuses dev team using “free resources” without proper way to monetise it, without realising the app has paid feature for users Who want more, at a reasonable price?
If you like first party app so much, good for you. Definitely not for most other people here.
exactly. just because something is legal doesn't make it right. reddit users are saying that ridding them of the apps they have grown to depend on for many years and harming the developers of those apps almost overnight is wrong and unethical. there are other obvious alternatives to ease this transition but the reality is reddit likely is trying to rapidly skew some numbers in preparation for an IPO where the leadership of reddit hopes to get very rich and soothe any little bit of guilt they feel in their new island vacation homes in the Maldives.
Except, Reddit will not keep those users because those users stay thanks to Apollo. Also, company offer free access on certain features all of the time, in reddit case years in fact. Instead of properly monetising this user base, they decide to rip off third party apps that brings those users in in the first place, hoping Them will use their own app instead. They won’t, at least some 200 of them commenting in this thread, and possibly more.
So, by your logic, that salesman brings, let’s say, 90,000 users to your company in the past few years while you offer him basic tools free of charge for him to work, and today you say “hey sorry you have to pay $900,000/day to use those tools”. Do you really think 100% of those 90,000 users he brings to you will continue to be your customer Despite that salesman being fired by your exorbitant tools rent charge?
Reddit changed the "deal" after reassurance there was no plan to. So they either lied or changed their mind and decided to give very little notice with new absurd terms. The hoops you're jumping through to defend Reddit acting in bad faith is a circus act.
Dude took free ride for years? Reddit has every right to charge Apollo API access in the first place. Why now?
Apollo dev technically doesn't pay for server costs, but why should he If Reddit think it’s ok for him to not pay?
Contributing content? How about contributing to bring a large user base to Reddit because of his app?
Sign any agreement? Ok I don’t know the full story but if anything, I blame Reddit for not negotiating their API EULA properly in the first place, or make any effort to revise it.
How long I can get away with “this bug”? What bug? Reddit didn’t ask for API charge initially, and didn’t follow up with revised terms of service for years and NOW THEY WANT TO CHARGE MONEY? What the heck Reddit is doing in the past few years then? Sleeping on the wheel and only today they wake up? Let me just assume that 8 year number is correct. This means in the past 8 years Reddit had spare no minute trying to figure out how much their API access should be charged. Isn’t this entirely Reddit fault?
I don’t use Apollo, heck, I don’t even use Reddit much because the community I participated in was extremely toxic. However, Reddit has them to blame the entire time and Apollo dev has nothing to do with it. It’s their fault to not revise their API access charge all these years. It’s their fault to not understand the value of Apollo. It’s their fault to not draft a better Terms of Service to third parties so those server costs can be accounted for. Reddit is wrong all along yet they choose to take down Apollo to cover Their own incompetence and negligence.
Dude get real. Thats the part where everyone is missing the point in this thread. The “sales guy” wasn’t provide free tools and basically got told to **** himself. He was paid a pretty penny. in fact so pretty, it was half a million dollars this year alone in his own words.
As for the users, they don’t care. Some will stay some won’t. Most will forget it’s an issue by the weekend.
Would you pay a million dollars for an Iphone? A business can charge whatever they want according to you, so would you fork up that money because Apple is charging whatever it wants? Businesses need to charge whatever gives them a competitive advantage for people to use their product. If you charge an enormously high fee, consumers are going to go to a product that charges much less.
Honestly, I am ok with going back to the Reddit app. I do not mind it's presentation just hate the adds. I predominantly used Reddit on the web via Arc Browser with some boosts implemented to remove the "bloat" I didn't care to see or interact with. Business is business, unfortunately.
I’m perfectly fine with that. Reddit can just die with all users moving to Digg. I don’t care. I just find it injustice to call reddit behaviour “unethical”