PowerBook 970s at WWDC?

[3G4N]

yeah, yeah -- big what if

Originally posted by cb911
...but considering that Moto may not be making G4's for much longer... (good point suzerain, i didn't think of the news about Moto selling the semiconductor dept. in that way.)

...also considering recent developments like Moto putting the semiconductor dept. up for sale...

and as a bonus, if Moto or anyone else isn't producing G4's then Apple might be forced to move the iBook and iMac lines to the 970 sooner as well.

What if -- after Apple moves to the 970, making a clean break of Moto, and serves the (rumored and deserved) lawsuit papers, with the aim to settle the lawsuit for the chip division. Apple then has a plan B in the unlikely event IBM pulls "a Moto" -- (a tthe very least) all of the IP, patents, tech, etc, to own and license, AND the assets to do top notch R&D and production, should the need arise. All this for the price of a lawsuit.

I admit it is a little far fetched, given Job's "software company" focus and the immense resources required to maintain such a "processor intensive" effort (why Moto is crumbling, and why nobody is itching to buy them).

 

[NeXTDev]

Originally posted by illumin8
You know, I didn't believe it until I saw it, but I just got one of those new 120 GB 7200 RPM, 8MB on-disk cache hard drives with an ATA133 controller, and it performs nearly as fast as a 36GB 10K RPM SCSI Ultra160 drive! With seek times at 8.5 ms this thing really rocks and I can see why people aren't buying SCSI any more. For 5 or 10 times the price, getting an extra 5 % increase on performance is not worth it...

Yes, the new ATA designs are pretty quick, but certainly the SCSI and FC solutions are still faster. As with most things in the computer universe, the curve of performance/price is exponential.

The truth is that as a general platform vendor to consumers, single user professional machines and low end servers, Apple probably doesn't see much demand for SCSI solutions. The Xserve is served well with ATA on board and SCSI/FC optional. There are many 3rd parties that can take up the slack, as it should be.

The big move now is Fibre Channel, and Apple's $500 HBA price is amazing. That's about 1/3 to 1/5 the price of everyone else. It would be interesting to see FC on a PowerBook. After all, if you can bypass the slow on-board hard disk when you are at work and can directly tap into the SAN, the PowerBook would be a terrific pro workstation. You just need some background sync process for the local hard disk. Pushing more IEEE-1394 for networking and SAN usage might also be an interesting move.

 

[dongmin]

Originally posted by Ensoniq
Regarding the 15" PowerBook speculation:

Apple introduced the 12" and 17" PowerBooks in January...the 15" should have been updated shortly thereafter. All 3 Aluminum PowerBooks would have been designed simultaneously. Apple probably planned to put the 15" into production last so that they could get rid of Titanium stock first. But there's no doubt that the DESIGN of the 15" Aluminum PowerBook was done BEFORE the 12"/17" were announced.

Now 5 months later, nothing. What can explain that? Why would Apple leave the middle child stuck looking different with lesser features than it's siblings for so long? The ONLY thing that makes any sense is that just as Apple was getting ready to put the 15" into production, IBM informed them that PPC 970 production was far exceeding expectations. And that caused a dilemna (albeit a good one) for Apple.

Besides the fact that all of your thinking is based on rumors, you forgot to mention the small detail that the 15" was updated in mid-November. THAT is the reason why you didn't see a new 15" released simultaneously with the 12" and 17", not because of some fiction you've concocted. It has now been 7 months since the 15" was last updated. Yes, an update is due, but 7 months between updates is not without precedent.

 

[GroundLoop]

Re: Re: references concerning heat

Originally posted by dongmin

PPC970:
16W (typical) @ 1.0 ghz (1.1v)

Also for reference:

MPC7457:
7.5W (typical) @ 1.0 ghz (1.0v)
16.6W (typical) @ 1.3 ghz (1.3v)

Can you post a reference for your PPC 970 @ 1GHz info?

As far as the MPC7457 goes:
Full power mode:
15.8W (typical) @ 1 GHz
22.0W (max) @ 1 GHz
18.7W (typical) @ 1.3 GHz
26.0W (max) @ 1.3 GHz

(page 15)

http://e-www.motorola.com/brdata/PDFDB/docs/MPC7457EC.pdf

Just more facts from the mouths (well docs) of Motorola.

But you were correct, the IBM PPC 970 numbers within that document are estimates as stated below the table in the referenced document.

Hickman

 

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by SuzanneA
The AlBooks are 'Aircraft Aluminum' (at least, thats what was said at release, the apple site just refers to it as Aluminum Alloy now) which is actually an alloy of a variety of things, not just 'raw aluminum', I believe it (often [1]) even includes some titanium to lend it some strength.

Either way, it would have to be clear/natural anodized, beacuse even in an alloy, aluminum oxidizes fast. Your nice 'shiny' AlBook would be dull and blotchy within a few days

[1] 'Aircraft Aluminum' is a very generic term, there are a few thousand different alloys of aluminum used in aircraft manufacture, and apple's choice, like any other 'Aircraft Aluminum' could be any of them.

We use alot of aluminum in rockets. The most common is 6061-T6 which is a treated material gfor hardness. 7075 is stiffer yet but a bit more brittle. Aluminum can crack under srress.

We also do alot of anodizing. My favorite color is purple but for general consumer products we normally do blue or black or clear. Clear is the issue raised for Appple and it makes sense because when you scratch it it looks less scratched than any other color.

But there are so many alloys of aluminum it is hard to predict what someone "insanely great" might choolse. Probably not good old 6061-T6 like everybody else.

My "avatar" image has us trying to first explode, then bend at Mach 5 some 6061-T6. That stuff survives!

Rocketman

 

[freundt]

Originally posted by dongmin
Besides the fact that all of your thinking is based on rumors, you forgot to mention the small detail that the 15" was updated in mid-November. THAT is the reason why you didn't see a new 15" released simultaneously with the 12" and 17", not because of some fiction you've concocted. It has now been 7 months since the 15" was last updated. Yes, an update is due, but 7 months between updates is not without precedent.

What was the november update again? Wasn't it a speed bump + cost decrease?

Or have I forgotten something?

 

[Hattig]

Originally posted by wwworry
ok this is stupid but


1.8 GHz 970 x 1.5 = 2.7 speed
1.4 Ghz dual G4 = 2.8 speed

so why no dual processor configurations?

what's stupid is my processor math (full of holes) but still it would be nice to have dual 970s.

The second processor in a system hardly ever doubles the performance. I'd call a dual 1.4GHz G4 something around 2.1 speed at most (I remember someone writing in another thread that the second G4 gives a ~50% performance gain, and a second 970 would give a ~75% performance gain)

 

[mactastic]

Originally posted by freundt
What was the november update again? Wasn't it a speed bump + cost decrease?

Or have I forgotten something?

November was the introduction of the 1ghz tibook, along with the radeon 9000 mobility w/64mb. Oh and the superdrive in a laptop option was introduced then too i believe.

 

[crayzaysean]

if i'm not mistaken, those specs are for the 7457 aimed toward embedded uses, right? Wouldn't the power usage be different when the altivec units are enabled and used as well as whatever other changes go into making it the desktop version. Also, apple would be able to drop the system controller with the 970 right?

 

[stompy]

Originally posted by freundt
What was the november update again? Wasn't it a speed bump + cost decrease?

Or have I forgotten something?

I believe the Radeon 9000 was also added in Nov., up from the 7500.

Edit: Right on both Mactastic. (Also, min. HD went up from 30 to 40 GB)

 

[Hattig]

Originally posted by gezzas525
Cheaper err I dont think so? Its a 64-bit chip, much higher transister count definetly not cheaper. And wheres the other 512Kb of cache? I want the FULL 1Mb!! its suppose to be a workstation chip for gods sake !!

Enough to go round thats what IBM says, maybe but not enough fot the chips to be used in both the desktops and powerbooks?

Why use slower memory? You want to create bottlenecks DUH!!
It has 6.4Gb/s bandwidth YOU HAVE TO USE DDR 400 AND IN PAIRS FOR DUAL CHANNEL OPERATION!!!

90nm need for lower power and feasible use in a portable platform.

Sun was an example!!

SCSI would be likely, why would you want to use IDE in a 64-bit workstation? Again your creating bottlenecks.

Hello Mr I WILL USE CAPS TO SHOUT MY ARGUMENT, HOWEVER BADLY FORMULATED.

The 1.8 GHz 970 has 7.2 GB/s of bandwidth, 6.4GB/s effective. The concensus is that the processor interconnect runs at half the clock speed of the processor, and a 1.2GHz 970 (19W power use) would therefore have a 600MHz bus, which is 4.8GB/s of bandwidth, or around 4GB/s effective bandwidth. Dual channel PC2100 would handle that without a problem in a new PowerBook, or single channel PC3200 would be adequate enough (you do not have to match memory speeds with bus speeds).

The 970 is rumoured to be cheaper than the G4 - mainly because the G4 is currently very expensive. It also runs cooler - another advantage of using 130nm manufacturing. The 7457 130nm G4 is not going to be available until Q4 this year either.

I would fully expect Apple to use FibreChannel before SCSI.

 

[copperpipe]

If this rumor is true

If this rumor is true I wil sh*t diamonds. But I'm not counting on that happening.

 

[fpnc]

PowerBook __G4__ at WWDC

I suspect that the only new hardware that will be introduced between now and the end of WWDC __will__ be a 15.4" PowerBook. But, it will have a G4 not a PPC970. The keynote will go something like this:

"Good morning...The year of the notebook...the 17" PowerBook, still the one and only...the 12" PowerBook the smallest PowerBook ever...our new 15.4" PowerBook redefines the notebook product space once again... the new gold standard...and now our developer preview of Panther..."

And that's it. No PPC970's at WWDC. I believe that many people are setting themselves up for a major disappointment if they think PPC970-based Macs are going to be introduced at WWDC. So in two weeks I'll either be eating crow (and admitting it) or thinking -- perhaps saying -- I told you so.

 

[illumin8]

Originally posted by NeXTDev
You can take any design and call certain things "hacks." It's all a matter of perspective. Obviously you're not an engineer of any sort.

Who says a consumer processor can only have 512k of cache? The Intel Pentium M has 1mb of L2 cache on die. So is that a hack?

FYI, my post was not meant to be a troll, just a statement of my personal opinion...

You bring up a very good point about the mobile Pentium-M which Intel is now using in notebooks.

Intel actually found that battery life was much better when the processor was clocked down at 1.4, 1.6, or 1.8 and the L3 cache was increased to 1MB. But also, the Pentium-M was a completely redesigned chip and was designed to take advantage of things like variable FSB.

I personally believe that Intel looked at the PowerBooks and realized they were getting their ass handed to them in that market, and copied a lot of the power saving features from the PowerBooks.

Of course they added a new one, that variable FSB, which I hope to see in the next iteration of the PowerBooks as well. Competition is a good thing...

 

[illumin8]

Re: Re: references concerning heat

Originally posted by dongmin
The 970 motherboard will most certainly cost more, especially if it has all these new goodies like AGP 8x, Hypertransport, DDR400, etc. as they've been rumored.

All of those features you mentioned as arguments that the PowerBook will not receive a 970 processor yet are features that will only be in a desktop computer in the first place.

Let me debunk them one by one, as you seem so fond of doing:

• 
  1. First of all, AGP 8X is only necessary for high-end desktop graphics cards. AGP 4X is considered the high end of the notebook markets, and there are several existing chipsets that support it.
  2. Hypertransport is only necessary on dual processor motherboards as a way of maintaining cache-coherency between processors and allowing each processor to access the other processor's dedicated banks of memory. Therefore, it is a desktop only feature, unless you believe the unlikely rumor that we will see dual processor notebooks.
  3. As mentioned many times before, dual channel DDR400 is only necessary for the 1.8 ghz. 970 processor with a 900 mhz. FSB. Dual channel DDR333 should feed the 600 mhz. FSB of a 1.2 ghz. PPC 970 just fine.

I think it is very feasible that Apple could quickly retrofit the 15" PB's system board with a simple 970 chipset and a dual DDR 333 memory configuration. This would not require any of the HyperTransport chipset or AGP 8X.

 

[RHutch]

Distinguishing the PB's

I think that it would make some sense to introduce the 970 in the 15" PB's now. It's time for them to be updated, but it would also add a distinguishing feature (a very big one) to the PB line. If the big screen is what you want, you have to buy the 17". You could wait until the 17" gets a 970 as well, but who knows when that will be? Same thing for the 12". The size (and other features, perhaps) of those two models might be enough reason for people to continue buying them now. Putting a 970 in the 15" would be a reason for people to buy the 15 incher NOW.

 

[astray]

fpnc, i came across this at macuser uk

"A MacUser.co.uk source reports that WWDC will be the 'biggest ever' and will feature significant hardware announcements"

almost everybodys source is saying the 970 will appear at wwdc. Whilst this is not fact, there is alot of convergence in the rumours, for people to fully discount them.

 

[soggywulf]

Originally posted by illumin8
I personally believe that Intel looked at the PowerBooks and realized they were getting their ass handed to them in that market
<snip>

Uhh...in what sense?

Sales? I kind of doubt that. Does anyone have recent laptop sales figres for Apple and, say, Dell?

Performance? I kind of doubt that too.

 

[3.1416]

Re: PowerBook __G4__ at WWDC

Originally posted by fpnc
And that's it. No PPC970's at WWDC. I believe that many people are setting themselves up for a major disappointment if they think PPC970-based Macs are going to be introduced at WWDC.

I'm up to 90% certainty that 970s will be announced. The recent C&Ds from Apple just about clinch it. And I still firmly believe that Apple didn't push WWDC back a month and move it to Moscone so they could have a slightly more complete Panther.

So in two weeks I'll either be eating crow (and admitting it) or thinking -- perhaps saying -- I told you so.

Likewise

 

[tcolling]

Originally posted by Rocketman
We use alot of aluminum in rockets. The most common is 6061-T6 which is a treated material gfor hardness. 7075 is stiffer yet but a bit more brittle. Aluminum can crack under srress.

We also do alot of anodizing. My favorite color is purple but for general consumer products we normally do blue or black or clear. Clear is the issue raised for Appple and it makes sense because when you scratch it it looks less scratched than any other color.

But there are so many alloys of aluminum it is hard to predict what someone "insanely great" might choolse. Probably not good old 6061-T6 like everybody else.

My "avatar" image has us trying to first explode, then bend at Mach 5 some 6061-T6. That stuff survives!

Rocketman

It's just a case. Hey, you know we're not talking rocket science here...oh, wait, I guess we are

 

[yzedf]

eFunda is the answer

Originally posted by cb911
you don't have to worry about the current TiBooks, or any Macs with G4's not being optimised. sure 10.3 will have certain optimizations for the 970's, but i'm sure that it will also have some speed increases on G4's. after all, even with the 970 a big part of Apple's line will still be G4 & maybe even G3.


and on the subject of anodizing... i recall reading that if you anodize something like a PB case, then contact with the skin will mean that eventually the coating will corrode and wear away. this can't be the case with the current AlBooks, right? i might be getting a bit technical here, but is it only anodizing with dye that makes it corrode with skin contact... or is there a different process that the AlBooks go through?

Here:

Anodizing is produced by electrochemical conversion. The anodizing process, usually performed on aluminum for protection and cosmetic purposes, builds up both on the surface as well as into the metal. Thin coatings, 2 µm to 25 µm (100 µin to 1000 µin) can be coated on most aluminums. Thick coatings from 25 to 75 µm (1000 to 3000 µin) are more durable and abrasion resistant than above chemical conversion oxide coatings. This oxide layer can be made in different colors depending on the post chemistries that are employed. The anodized parts are quite durable and do not tarnish and maintain their cosmetic appearance for a long period of time. Anodized coatings are usually dielectric in nature.

http://www.efunda.com/processes/surface/conversion_coatings.cfm?search_string=anodize

Human contact (oils and such) will not harm a good anodized material, or the finish for that matter.

 

[ZildjianKX]

All the powerbooks and power mac are still shipping same day except the dual 1.42... doesn't look good...

 

[JBracy]

Originally posted by ZildjianKX
All the powerbooks and power mac are still shipping same day except the dual 1.42... doesn't look good...

Yes but Apple are selling almost their entire line (Except 17"PB, 12" PB and 1.42 PM) to employees at ridiculous prices - to clear them out before WWDC. (including iMacs, eMacs, iBooks, PBs, PMs and Displays)

 

[moosecat]

It is very interesting that this thread/item remains up, while another thread, concerning some chip to be included in some computer and announced at some event has been removed at the request of Apple legal.

What does that say about the reliability of this one?

 

[ColoJohnBoy]

Originally posted by gezzas525
There will be no POWERBOOK 970's at WWDC PERIOD!!!

TRUST ME

Why should we? What position of omniscience and authority do you hold that enables you to state with such surety that not a chance exists for such an introduction to take place?

I personally hope PPC970 PowerBooks will be introduced, but I'm not completely expecting it. I do expect some sort of announcement regarding the PPC970, but not necessarily anything specific. Again, I merely hope.


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