Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
PowerBook Updates -- As Early as Next Week?
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
That seems unlikely...the 12" is too small and the 17" is too big for me and for many, I am sure. The 15" is the perfect fit for so many things and I do not see how Apple could consider killing it no matter how much acid they might drop...
Fear not: 15" is traditionally the laptop sweet spot and I can't imagine Apple will go for any length of time without a product in that category. At the least I should think they'll keep the existing TiBook form factor until they transition to the aluminum design.
Re: Re: "New" PBs
Have you seen the heatsinks on G4 desktops? It's huge. But that certainly doesn't mean you can't have a G4 in a laptop.
For starters, the G5 case has room for two CPU's. Next, we can assume that the laptop G5 will have a slower clock on the CPU than the desktops, so it won't need that huge heatsink.
I don't know why everyone is having such a hard time believing in the G5 powerbook this year. Maybe it is that we are so used to lame, slow update cycles from Apple, that we just can't believe that things could possibly move so quickly? All the tech is there now. If Apple was smart, they'd have been designing the laptop motherboards/chips concurrently with the desktop G5 motherboards. Which would mean G5 powerbooks this year.
Let's raise our expectations of Apple a little bit.
Have you seen the heatsinks on G4 desktops? It's huge. But that certainly doesn't mean you can't have a G4 in a laptop.
For starters, the G5 case has room for two CPU's. Next, we can assume that the laptop G5 will have a slower clock on the CPU than the desktops, so it won't need that huge heatsink.
I don't know why everyone is having such a hard time believing in the G5 powerbook this year. Maybe it is that we are so used to lame, slow update cycles from Apple, that we just can't believe that things could possibly move so quickly? All the tech is there now. If Apple was smart, they'd have been designing the laptop motherboards/chips concurrently with the desktop G5 motherboards. Which would mean G5 powerbooks this year.
Let's raise our expectations of Apple a little bit.
But if G5 powerbooks come this year, wouldn't that kinda hurt the G5 desktop series? Sure, it's a dual processor, but giving that up for ultra super technology that's highly portable might not be too farfetched for ppl. Why would they hurt their desktop series in order to sell more laptops when both desktops w/a G5 and updated G4 laptops would sell?
For one thing.... Powerbooks are ALOT more expensive, even though you get a display included in the deal...
Second, the Powerbooks are necessarily going to be single CPU AND at a slower clockspeed across the board. In fact I won't be surprised if the G5 PBs don't come in at nearly the same clockspeed as their G4 predecessors (1 to 1.4 Ghz) though they of course will have the FSB beauty and full DDR support.
I'd bet that Apple is simply waiting for people to hear the word on the street about how much more performance the G5 architecture brings relative to it's clockspeed (ie: you get a lot more for your money). If the G5 PBs come in at a lowish ghz then they will be harder to explain to people who've never experienced the new G5 architecture. Unless IBM gets the .90 nm process down for manufacturing this is what will happen cause at the current size the chips are too hot to give PBs any higher clockspeeds than 1 - 1.4 Ghz.
G5 PowerBooks certainly wouldn't help the sales of the G5 desktop. And for those video/graphics professionals with the funds, it's conceivable that with all the high-end power in the desktop, they'll buy both the G5 desktop and a G4 PowerBook. Some people do need or at least really look forward to the extra power in the G5, but also require portability.
It was a year and three months between the announcement of the G4 desktop and the G4 PowerBook. Could be awhile before G5 PowerBooks. When someone at Apple said the G4 would remain in the PowerBooks for a long time, I don't think he meant six months.
And forget heatsinks and power consumption. Has anyone seen the die size on the G5? It's huge. They'd have to make it a 30" Cinema G5 PowerBook. Might as well for the space you'd need to hold the G5 processor.
But it won't hurt either, as foniks2020 points out.
As I said, we are used to lame and slow update cycles from Apple. Hopefully from now on this will change and we will see decently performing machines released at the right time.
Taken from Ars Technica (http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/02q2/ppc970/ppc970-1.html):
So as we can see here, the G5's die size is only a little bigger than the G4e, and smaller than the P4. Shouldn't be a problem.
Also note the power consumption. The 1.8 GHz G5 is 42W compared to 30W on the G4e. A 1.2 GHz G5 is supposed to dissipate only 19W--less than the G4e. This is according to this IBM paper.
And finally keep in mind that existing powerbooks already have DDR266 and DDR333 memory. A G5 powerbook has the same memory requirements, although of course in the case of the G5 we would actually see DDR266 and DDR333 memory speeds (actually, twice those speeds in dual bank configuration). So there would be little or no additional power drain from memory requirements, between the current powerbooks and the hypothetical G5 powerbook.
So what this all means is that all the pieces are in place for a G5 powerbook. There are no excuses left, and no technical reason why we should have to wait until "next year" to see them. The chips are there, the memory is there, and all of it works within the power requirements of a laptop. The only remaining question is whether Apple has had the foresight to design the machine.
I won't argue that it's not technically possible to make a G5 notebook, but I will argue that Apple is probably interested in getting the die size and power consumption down to better fit their design standard's and battery-life ambitions.
But the bottom line is that Apple's marketing strategy is not governed by what is technically possible. First, the cost of a G5 notebook introduced right now would probably be around $4,000. That will push most potential buyers back down to the G4 notebooks. Second, as long as the G4 PowerBook line continues to sell well, they'll drain every dollar of profit from that architecture they can before introducing its successor.
I understand you'd like to have a more powerful notebook now; and that drives you to proclaim Apple's update schedule as "lame" compared to the PC industry. But, also compared to the PC industry, Apple still retains a pretty clearly delineated product line. You know what you're getting. Some PC lines are so muddled with numerous models it's hard to tell one product from the other, complicating the selection process. People buy Macs for various reasons, but by and large, I don't think raw power is a primary requirement. If Apple determines that small scale upgrades to the G4 series will hold the PowerBook line for 12 months or more, they'll wait.
Based on the information I have collected above, it appears that the components for a hypothetical G5 powerbook already satisfy or exceed Apple's battery-life and power consumption requirements.
It doesn't have to be. Apple might choose to price it there, certainly, if they don't want to make it price-competitive. In that case we would end up with the same situation we have now--too much money for the performance. But at least in that case, there would actually be a hi-performance Mac laptop.
Indeed. That's the real problem isn't it. Better for Apple in the short term, but worse for us. And worse for Apple in the longer term, methinks.
No. What drives me to say that Apple's update schedule is lame is that Apple's update schedule is lame. Objectively, compared to the competition, and considering the price, we have two problems. (1) the laptops are very overpriced from the perspective of raw performance, and IMO still pretty overpriced even after the MacOS advantage is included in the calculation. (2) There is no really hi-end (performance-wise) powerbook at all, at any price.
Orthogonal issue.
Yes, there are other reasons to get a Mac, which is why the Mac still exists. Namely, MacOS X. And also case aesthetics, etc. But I would say for most people, including the email-and-web folks, power it still one of the primary requirements. Otherwise, why are people so excited about the rumored updates in this thread? Sure there are other new features rumored (USB2, etc), but people are also quite excited about the perceived increases in speed.
How is that an orthogonal issue, as it relates to one of Apple's potential motives for delaying introduction of a PowerBook G5? At the price point of a PB G5, Apple would almost surely have to retain a selection of G4 PowerBooks. Or push the G4 down into the iBook line, which doesn't seem likely any time soon. Thus you have a line of iBooks, a line of G4 PowerBooks, and a line of G5 PowerBooks, further complicating the Mac lines, which are probably already more jumbled than they'd like.
I can't imagine how the email-and-web folks would have any use for a G5 in any form factor. Now the email-and-web Mac enthusiast or hobbyist would probably love a G5, desktop or notebook. But the people posting to this thread are not Apple's mainstream customer base. They are either hobbyists, enthusiasts or people on the verge of buying a new notebook who are doing a significant amount of research.
I'd count myself as a Mac enthusiast. Apple's products really interest me, though I'm not given to tinkering with them as a hobbyist might be. However, when my daughter goes back to school next week, I'll go back to work and will likely only follow Apple's product developments peripherally. I guess I'll slip back into that mainstream customer base, as will others who make a buying decision or decide to put it off indefinitely. Those in the IT industry, and core enthusiasts/hobbyists, will stick around and continue to demand more substantial upgrades.
I think Apple excels in two areas: innovation (FireWire, Airport, etc.) and refinement (iTunes Music Service, iPod, LCD displays, etc.). But in the end, all that really means to me is that I can plug my iPod into a fast connection and enjoy an easy to use portable music player. I'm more more taken with the Apple mystique; and if given to buy a new desktop right now would pick an iMac over a G5, a new notebook, the 12" PowerBook.
But I really didn't mean to turn this into a you're wrong and I'm right debate. You're right for your wants and needs, and I'm right for my wants and needs. Apple's marketing strategy probably lies somewhere in between our individual perspectives. But I'm as sick and addicted to Apple products as anyone else. I'm always looking for excuses to buy something from Apple. Indeed, this weekend will be especially tough as I've had my eye on the 12" PowerBook and Monday is my deadline for buying anything new for awhile -- I find new toys too distracting when I should be working. The miserable fact is that I would save vast amounts of money by switching to Windows. I would just use the PC until it was falling apart and catching fire, then just buy a new, cheap PC; but Apple always makes me want to step up long before I need it.
Yeah, for me, they're great. Comparing my 667 TiBook to one of the 17" G4s, I don't perceive any real difference in performance. I know logically there is a difference, but I don't perceive it. If I were to buy one, it would be for that whacking big screen. Likewise for the 12": the convenience of hassle-free portability.
I understand your frastration to an extent - I have a 12" PB and it is doing fine for me speed wise especialyl since I am using the 7B28. However do you really believe that a 1.2GHz G5 will compete with a 10 pound P4 at 3GHz in raw performance? I mean I wouldn't be surprised if the Wintel laptop industry in their hunt for the absolute desktop replacement fit an actual 9800Pro in there by making their cases a couple inches taller still .I said it before that I saw the newest Toshiba and it was a monster I would hate to carry this thing from one room to the other how much more from my house to my work to a trip or whatever.
I think G5 or not better FSB or not the fact that Apple is inclined to form and factor simplicity and practicality rather than raw power at any cost you will still feel a PB is an overpriced underpowered laptop. They won't fit the latest fastest processor they wont fit the fastest latest graphics cheap they wont fit huge hard drives. All these sacrifices you are making in order to actually have a "portable" laptop. I would like to see a PC laptop in the form factor of the 12" PB that comes close to their specs and price. I checked an IBM, a Sony and a Dell.
12" PB from Apple
12.1" 867MHz G4
256MB DDR SDRAM to 640MB
40GB to 60GB
WiFi/Bluetooth
DVD/CDRW to DVDR/CDRW
32 Geforce 420 Go
As configured 1698+tax
The little one from IBM it is the ThinkPad X31
12", 1.4GHz Pentium-M
256 DDR SDRAM to 1GB
40GB to 60GB
Wifi/Bluetooth
Ultrabay+dvd-cdrw
16MB Radeon mobility M6
as configured above is at 2227$+tax
Positives: It has better battery life, it might be slightly faster it can take up to 1GB memory, it is much more configurable on order.
Negatives: It is much more expensive, it is more bulky since the ultrabay and DVD/CDRW are not integral parts, only 16MB Video RAM, cannot take DVDR
Sony V505 customised as well
12", 1.8GHz Celeron to 2GHz P4
256 DDR SDRAM to 1GB
40GB to 60GB
Wifi (802.11b)
dvd-cdrw
16MB Radeon mobility
as configured above is at 1449$+tax
Positives:1GB max memory, it is more configurable on order.
Negatives: no bluetooth, no DVDR option, no 802.11a or g, only 16MB RAM
note:speed wise i never liked celerons they were very slow so i dont expect it to be any faster than a 867MHz G4 (my previous sony the R505 used a 1.2GHz P3 and it was SLOWER than the PB)
So for 250$+tax more would you take the sony or the PB (for me it was a no brainer)
Dell Inspiron 300m
12", 1.2GHz P-M
384MB DDR to 1.1GB
40GB to 60GB
WiFi
DVD/CDRW to DVD+RW/+R
Up to 64MB shared intel 855GM
Price as configured 1527$+tax
Positives: More memory, more configurable, can get DVD+RW/+R
Negatives: SHARED MEMORY!!! and an intel graphics chip, slower(?), the DVD/CDRW is external, no bluetooth
173$+tax difference hm still not even close for me.
So my conclusion against all this competition - the quality(IBM), the style(SONY) and the popular choice(DELL) for me it comes on top. Price wise it competes very well, spec wise it is just fine, and it has plenty of style and quality. And RAW POWER well Celeron will never beat it 1.2GHz P-M is on par if not slower, the only one that can come on top is the 1.8P-M from IBM but it costs 550$ more.
The IBM is the only one I would consider as a viable alternative but I would have to pay extra 550$ and use XP. No thanks.
I think G5 or not better FSB or not the fact that Apple is inclined to form and factor simplicity and practicality rather than raw power at any cost you will still feel a PB is an overpriced underpowered laptop. They won't fit the latest fastest processor they wont fit the fastest latest graphics cheap they wont fit huge hard drives. All these sacrifices you are making in order to actually have a "portable" laptop. I would like to see a PC laptop in the form factor of the 12" PB that comes close to their specs and price. I checked an IBM, a Sony and a Dell.
12" PB from Apple
12.1" 867MHz G4
256MB DDR SDRAM to 640MB
40GB to 60GB
WiFi/Bluetooth
DVD/CDRW to DVDR/CDRW
32 Geforce 420 Go
As configured 1698+tax
The little one from IBM it is the ThinkPad X31
12", 1.4GHz Pentium-M
256 DDR SDRAM to 1GB
40GB to 60GB
Wifi/Bluetooth
Ultrabay+dvd-cdrw
16MB Radeon mobility M6
as configured above is at 2227$+tax
Positives: It has better battery life, it might be slightly faster it can take up to 1GB memory, it is much more configurable on order.
Negatives: It is much more expensive, it is more bulky since the ultrabay and DVD/CDRW are not integral parts, only 16MB Video RAM, cannot take DVDR
Sony V505 customised as well
12", 1.8GHz Celeron to 2GHz P4
256 DDR SDRAM to 1GB
40GB to 60GB
Wifi (802.11b)
dvd-cdrw
16MB Radeon mobility
as configured above is at 1449$+tax
Positives:1GB max memory, it is more configurable on order.
Negatives: no bluetooth, no DVDR option, no 802.11a or g, only 16MB RAM
note:speed wise i never liked celerons they were very slow so i dont expect it to be any faster than a 867MHz G4 (my previous sony the R505 used a 1.2GHz P3 and it was SLOWER than the PB)
So for 250$+tax more would you take the sony or the PB (for me it was a no brainer)
Dell Inspiron 300m
12", 1.2GHz P-M
384MB DDR to 1.1GB
40GB to 60GB
WiFi
DVD/CDRW to DVD+RW/+R
Up to 64MB shared intel 855GM
Price as configured 1527$+tax
Positives: More memory, more configurable, can get DVD+RW/+R
Negatives: SHARED MEMORY!!! and an intel graphics chip, slower(?), the DVD/CDRW is external, no bluetooth
173$+tax difference hm still not even close for me.
So my conclusion against all this competition - the quality(IBM), the style(SONY) and the popular choice(DELL) for me it comes on top. Price wise it competes very well, spec wise it is just fine, and it has plenty of style and quality. And RAW POWER well Celeron will never beat it 1.2GHz P-M is on par if not slower, the only one that can come on top is the 1.8P-M from IBM but it costs 550$ more.
The IBM is the only one I would consider as a viable alternative but I would have to pay extra 550$ and use XP. No thanks.
@vrapan:
Besides the overall very shiny specs
D) of PB's; another important consideration for me is the OS i will be using.
For now, i would get Windows XP if i buy a pc laptop.
Next to come: Microsoft will bring out the Longhorn. I'm not sure if everybody is fully informed about the specs of this new OS, but i only needed 30 secs to decide i really need to get on Mac OS.
If i buy an laptop or computer, i want to controle it, I am the boss.
With Longhorn there's a good chance the OS will tell you what you may or may not do. A huge influence of the DRM (Digital Rights Management) will be strongly implemented in this animal.
Another example; last weekend i've been busy for over an hour (too long anyway) to properly find way to properly remove an user in Windows XP. Having built up piles of frustrations; i finally found a back-door in WinXP and finally (dirty) removed the user...
Conclusion again: I don't wanna be on a OS which tells me what or what not to do. (At least nothing that seems logical...)
When deciding whether buying a Mac, i must say Mac OS X is one huuuge Pro for switching. It's becoming the only friendly OS on the market which still wants to be friends with its customers.
Personally, i'm determined to buy a Powerbook 12'' as soon as they are being updated. Whether or not i get Panther with it.
Besides the overall very shiny specs
D) of PB's; another important consideration for me is the OS i will be using. For now, i would get Windows XP if i buy a pc laptop.
Next to come: Microsoft will bring out the Longhorn. I'm not sure if everybody is fully informed about the specs of this new OS, but i only needed 30 secs to decide i really need to get on Mac OS.
If i buy an laptop or computer, i want to controle it, I am the boss.
With Longhorn there's a good chance the OS will tell you what you may or may not do. A huge influence of the DRM (Digital Rights Management) will be strongly implemented in this animal.
Another example; last weekend i've been busy for over an hour (too long anyway) to properly find way to properly remove an user in Windows XP. Having built up piles of frustrations; i finally found a back-door in WinXP and finally (dirty) removed the user...
Conclusion again: I don't wanna be on a OS which tells me what or what not to do. (At least nothing that seems logical...)
When deciding whether buying a Mac, i must say Mac OS X is one huuuge Pro for switching. It's becoming the only friendly OS on the market which still wants to be friends with its customers.
Personally, i'm determined to buy a Powerbook 12'' as soon as they are being updated. Whether or not i get Panther with it.
This year or next?
Steve Jobs said this was the year of the laptop.
If new G4 Powerbooks come out this tuesday and G5 powerbooks come out next year then shouldn't next year be THE YEAR OF THE LAPTOP?
I have my hopes up. Only problem:
if G5 PBs comes out tuesday then the ibook line is also going to have to be updated.
Steve Jobs said this was the year of the laptop.
If new G4 Powerbooks come out this tuesday and G5 powerbooks come out next year then shouldn't next year be THE YEAR OF THE LAPTOP?
I have my hopes up. Only problem:
if G5 PBs comes out tuesday then the ibook line is also going to have to be updated.
Year of the laptop could mean any combination or all of these:
a)laptops mroe popular than desktops
b)laptops generate more revenues - profits than desktops
c)major flood of new models of laptops across the PC world
But i don't think that a whole year of the laptop is defined as laptops from apple will run on G5 - come on people !!!
Year of the laptop
yeah but we had G4 laptops last year! What makes this year so different? a 12" and a 17"? If that is the case then
2002 was year of the ibook because Apple introduced a 14" iBook and 2002 was also the year of the iMac because Apple released a 17" imac.
What makes this the YEar of the Laptop??
yeah but we had G4 laptops last year! What makes this year so different? a 12" and a 17"? If that is the case then
2002 was year of the ibook because Apple introduced a 14" iBook and 2002 was also the year of the iMac because Apple released a 17" imac.
What makes this the YEar of the Laptop??
PB G5 next Tuesday, propably not...
I agree that it's quite inlikely Apple will present Powerbooks with G5's in it... (i'd be happy if we'll see an update, anyway. It's still guessing for all of us...)
Major argument for this point of view is: some Mac official (i forgot his name) declared that the relation with Motorola will be continued and that the G4 will play a significant role for the Powerbooks.
My guess is that we'll see a faster G4 in the PB's for now, and the G5 somewhere next year... Besides, it's quite early to introduce G5's in an laptop... It was just introduced in a desktop computer.
I'll pray and hope with you all, but i'm affraid hoping for a G5 PB now is no more than wishful thinking.
:/
I agree that it's quite inlikely Apple will present Powerbooks with G5's in it... (i'd be happy if we'll see an update, anyway. It's still guessing for all of us...)
Major argument for this point of view is: some Mac official (i forgot his name
) declared that the relation with Motorola will be continued and that the G4 will play a significant role for the Powerbooks. My guess is that we'll see a faster G4 in the PB's for now, and the G5 somewhere next year... Besides, it's quite early to introduce G5's in an laptop... It was just introduced in a desktop computer.
I'll pray and hope with you all, but i'm affraid hoping for a G5 PB now is no more than wishful thinking.
:/