PowerBook Updates in September?

[~Shard~]

I agree that once Macs become x86 based, the configurations will look nearly identical unless Intel is giving Apple a special chip or something that will set them apart in a different way. Seeing that as a lull chance, I would agree that we will see equal configs and therefore one could argue equal performance (save for OS differences). The internals will be the same, but the outside will always be soooo much nicer on the Macs. Even the latest pc counterparts still look like plastic and even though they come with "better" (can be argued either way) screens, the casing and quality feel sub-par in comparison. I would be willing to pay an extra $100 - $250 for a quality system that feels like it could potentially last me more than a year, and I would be willing to bet that all other things equal, there are some other users on here would pony up for the design and feel as well.

Good points. I guess that will be up to the individual user, as everyone has their own preferences, and what they put value in. As I mentioned above, many people love the OS, and are willing to pay more to have it. Other people like the look and design, as you say.

I think one issue that might come up is with regards to upgrades. If Macs truly become like PCs on the inside for all intents and purposes, how will Apple handle upgrades to their machines? In the PC world, once Intel releases a new chip, once there's a new video card out, once there's a new mobo to support faster RAM, or what have you, Joe Schmo can go to NCIX, Tiger Direct, wherever, and buy these individual components for his machine and upgrade it, keeping it as up to date as he may wish. With Macs though, what happens if Apple sticks with their "upgrades every x months" to their products? Will people be content in owning a Mac with the exact same guts as a PC and then being forced to essentially wait several months or buy a brand new Mac once their PC counterparts have access to a new ATI card, next gen memory, a new Intel chip, Blu-Ray drives, etc. which those PC users can just buy and pop into their machine the next day?

 

[~loserman~]

Thanks for the detailed reply ~loserman~, I appreciate it. You make some very interesting points, and seem to have given this matter a lot of thought. As you have eluded to, it will be interesting to see how things turn out with the move to Intel.

I would add, other peoples milage may vary.
I can see for many the move to X86 may make a more useful computer for the average Mac user.
Given that Macs will be able to dual boot Windows. Yes I know, many here find Windows an anathema but There are some things it just does better.
For example try ripping and burning a DVD on a Mac and try it under Windows. You can do it in one step under Windows while it is a 2 to 3 step process under OS X.
Also since it will be X86, Virtual PC will allow you to run Windows programs directly without emulation. Therefore you will get access to an enormous software library.
Even gamers will be able to run the latest games without having to wait an extra year or two for the Mac/ OS X ports.
And if your technically inclined things like WINE become an option.
It will also be more suitable for a corporate desktop since so many corporate applications depend on Windows.

But again for me personally, it's bonuses won't out way it's increased price.

 

[~loserman~]

I would be willing to pay an extra $100 - $250 for a quality system that feels like it could potentially last me more than a year, and I would be willing to bet that all other things equal, there are some other users on here would pony up for the design and feel as well.

Who wouldn't?
The problem is it won't be $100 to $250 different. To keep the same differences in design( plastic vs aluminum case) it will be $500 to $1000 or more different. For absolutely equal hardware. I personally don't find that attractive.
My argument is founded on just the Case/looks/etc. It is based on manufacturing costs vs volume. Apple doesn't sell enough machines to warrant the best pricing schedules or defray hardware costs over enough unit volume. Therefore their machine prices will be significantly higher( 25 to 30%) for equal hardware. It is simple economics.
Before the Intel change, Apple could always make the argument that their hardware was superior( whether it actually was or wasn't).
But now they won't have that argument to make.
Something else to consider....
Apple has historically maintained 25 to 40% profit margins on their computer sales.
PC vendors currently maintain about 5% profit. Apples profit WILL decrease on their machines on INTEL period, specifically for the reasons I have already outlined.

 

[~loserman~]

I think one issue that might come up is with regards to upgrades. If Macs truly become like PCs on the inside for all intents and purposes, how will Apple handle upgrades to their machines? In the PC world, once Intel releases a new chip, once there's a new video card out, once there's a new mobo to support faster RAM, or what have you, Joe Schmo can go to NCIX, Tiger Direct, wherever, and buy these individual components for his machine and upgrade it, keeping it as up to date as he may wish. With Macs though, what happens if Apple sticks with their "upgrades every x months" to their products? Will people be content in owning a Mac with the exact same guts as a PC and then being forced to essentially wait several months or buy a brand new Mac once their PC counterparts have access to a new ATI card, next gen memory, a new Intel chip, Blu-Ray drives, etc. which those PC users can just buy and pop into their machine the next day?

Or better yet....
Will Apple computers still rely on a bios that wont allow a Standard off the shelf video card to work.
Will ATI and Nvidia etc. still have to make Apple specific products that cost you and me more money than their true PC counterparts.
Will they use non-standard sockets on their motherboards and or surface mount their CPUs so you can't upgrade them to the newest chip that comes down the line.
Ad nausem

Can you imagine Apple trying to pull off a 30Mhz speed bump in the PC world.
OooooHHHH!!! New Power Macs Tuesday with 30Mhz more speed... Give me a break.
I don't know about you but I would just go out and buy a nice new shiny CPU from newegg or pricewatch and upgrade my old Mac.

 

[~Shard~]

Or better yet....
Will Apple computers still rely on a bios that wont allow a Standard off the shelf video card to work.
Will ATI and Nvidia etc. still have to make Apple specific products that cost you and me more money than their true PC counterparts.
Will they use non-standard sockets on their motherboards and or surface mount their CPUs so you can't upgrade them to the newest chip that comes down the line.
Ad nausem

Can you imagine Apple trying to pull off a 30Mhz speed bump in the PC world.
OooooHHHH!!! New Power Macs Tuesday with 30Mhz more speed... Give me a break.
I don't know about you but I would just go out and buy a nice new shiny CPU from newegg or pricewatch and upgrade my old Mac.

Yep, excellent points. As an Intel Mac user, I would like the flexibility that my PC counterparts have with regards to that. And sure, I'm fine with putting up with the way things are currently, but moving to Intel changes everything, and as you say, if Apple goes out of their way to customize (cripple?) their boxes so upgrades of this nature aren't possible, I think that's going to turn a lot of people off.

 

[~loserman~]

if Apple goes out of their way to customize (cripple?) their boxes so upgrades of this nature aren't possible, I think that's going to turn a lot of people off.

But not the true blue fanboy.

 

[~Shard~]

But not the true blue fanboy.

Fair enough.

... Is that a good thing?

 

[Danathar]

They have to be faster than an Intel Ibook

It would'nt surprise me if they boosted the powerbooks in speed. Assuming the Ibook comes out with Intel processors first they would need to have the new ibooks with Intel somewhat slower than powerbooks (so that people will still buy powerbooks!).

 

[~Shard~]

It would'nt surprise me if they boosted the powerbooks in speed. Assuming the Ibook comes out with Intel processors first they would need to have the new ibooks with Intel somewhat slower than powerbooks (so that people will still buy powerbooks!).

Or they could just make the next PowerBooks Intel machines themselves...

 

[aegisdesign]

Given that Macs will be able to dual boot Windows. Yes I know, many here find Windows an anathema but There are some things it just does better.
For example try ripping and burning a DVD on a Mac and try it under Windows. You can do it in one step under Windows while it is a 2 to 3 step process under OS X.

Huh? Last I tried it Windows XP doesn't come with DVD burning software at all. You have to install 3rd Party software like Nero.

Also since it will be X86, Virtual PC will allow you to run Windows programs directly without emulation. Therefore you will get access to an enormous software library.

No, You'll have access to exactly the same software library you had before going X86. It'll just run faster. You'll still need to buy a copy of Windows and copies of all the X86 software for Windows.

VirtualPC is not a Windows emulator.

Even gamers will be able to run the latest games without having to wait an extra year or two for the Mac/ OS X ports.

If they do that of course, there won't BE any OSX ports as all the gamers will have just ran the Windows versions. IMHO going X86 is going to be very, very bad for the Mac game software companies.

And if your technically inclined things like WINE become an option.
It will also be more suitable for a corporate desktop since so many corporate applications depend on Windows.

But again for me personally, it's bonuses won't out way it's increased price.

For the couple of Windows Apps I must run, I don't mind it but the transition will majorly suck if all we see in the future are poor ports from Windows because it's now easy to run WINE or other compatibility layers instead of developers writing decent Mac software.

 

[BGil]

Also since it will be X86, Virtual PC will allow you to run Windows programs directly without emulation. Therefore you will get access to an enormous software library.

It's still going to be slow. Have you ever tried running a copy of Windows in VPC on a Windows machine? It's still nowhere near native. What you want it something like WINE.

If they do that of course, there won't BE any OSX ports as all the gamers will have just ran the Windows versions. IMHO going X86 is going to be very, very bad for the Mac game software companies.

Exactly. If Mactels boot into Windows easily then lots of people will stop making Mac software and just tell you to boot into Windows if you want to use there stuff.

 

[BGil]

Who wouldn't?
The problem is it won't be $100 to $250 different. To keep the same differences in design( plastic vs aluminum case) it will be $500 to $1000 or more different. For absolutely equal hardware. I personally don't find that attractive.

Much of the plastic versus aluminum case debate is just marketing and looks. Plastic cases done correctly are far more durable than the aluminum PB. Just look at Thinkpads, Acer's, and HP's business line. They don't pit, warp, scratch, bend, or dent.

 

[D*I*S_Frontman]

Much of the plastic versus aluminum case debate is just marketing and looks. Plastic cases done correctly are far more durable than the aluminum PB. Just look at Thinkpads, Acer's, and HP's business line. They don't pit, warp, scratch, bend, or dent.

I loved the look of my old Pismo, and that sucker was near bullet-proof. High density polycarbonate is great stuff. I, for one, would sacrifice a few ounces in weight for a more durable case. And the "Batman's Laptop" curvy, sexy lines of the Pismo appeal to me more than the sterile minimalism of the Ti/Al Books.

But that's just me.

The design ethic of the current PBook line is beginning to become dated. I would hope that the Intel-based systems come with a completely new design direction, perhaps something a bit more organic.

 

[ammon]

It's still going to be slow. Have you ever tried running a copy of Windows in VPC on a Windows machine? It's still nowhere near native. What you want it something like WINE.



Exactly. If Mactels boot into Windows easily then lots of people will stop making Mac software and just tell you to boot into Windows if you want to use there stuff.

Don't forget that you will still need to purchase Windows to do that. Who would spend an extra $300 just to run some app?

 

[powerbook911]

Don't forget that you will still need to purchase Windows to do that. Who would spend an extra $300 just to run some app?

Well, I think a lot of people will make a dual boot machine, on their mac.

However, I agree, it would be silly, for developers to stop making Mac software. Mac users go months, without restarting, so we don't want to be restarting, whenever we need a particular application.

 

[*db*]

New Powerbooks

Hi
Now I'm by no means a Mac genius (even though I've been there since Mac Plus) and I was wondering if the next Powerbooks will see a total re-look at laptops in general from a HD point of view. I know its going to have a good hi res display, also a dvd burner (which shade HD is anyones guess), Intel chip, etc but from a HD point of view I wonder if flash ram is the way to go. I've seen that Samsung have said they'll be producing 32GB and 64GB chips next year and would figure 4x64GB chips would take up less room than a HD and that would make for a slightly thinner lighter and less power hungry machine or is it not possible.

Just my thoughts on a wet and windy Friday

db

 

[robbieduncan]

Hi
Now I'm by no means a Mac genius (even though I've been there since Mac Plus) and I was wondering if the next Powerbooks will see a total re-look at laptops in general from a HD point of view. I know its going to have a good hi res display, also a dvd burner (which shade HD is anyones guess), Intel chip, etc but from a HD point of view I wonder if flash ram is the way to go. I've seen that Samsung have said they'll be producing 32GB and 64GB chips next year and would figure 4x64GB chips would take up less room than a HD and that would make for a slightly thinner lighter and less power hungry machine or is it not possible.

Just my thoughts on a wet and windy Friday

db

A few thoughts:
1) The next PowerBooks will almost certainly be a slight PPC bump. No major new features.

2) Those are GigaBit not GigaByte capacities. You need to divide by 8. So you need at least 10 of these chips for a reasonable (80Gb) capacity. Also the cost will probably be massive.

 

[BGil]

Don't forget that you will still need to purchase Windows to do that. Who would spend an extra $300 just to run some app?

Why do you need to pay $300? XP Home is only $200 retail and Vista will come in several cheaper editions. The Home Starter edtion of Vista will be all you'd need to run apps and it should cost less than XP home does today ($130 or so?)
And OEM copies cost even less.

 

[Squire]

Why do you need to pay $300? XP Home is only $200 retail and Vista will come in several cheaper editions. The Home Starter edtion of Vista will be all you'd need to run apps and it should cost less than XP home does today ($130 or so?)
And OEM copies cost even less.

Add another $129.95 for Virtual PC 7. Maybe that's what he was referring to with the $300 comment.

Squire

 

[mddharma]

Or they could just make the next PowerBooks Intel machines themselves...

I just don't see that happening... too much software on a pro machine that would have to run in emulation. Apple realizes this, and I think they also realize that they need a GOOD update to the powerbooks to tide the base over until the intel and software fit.
Heres hoping they see the logic in this!

 

[~Shard~]

I just don't see that happening... too much software on a pro machine that would have to run in emulation. Apple realizes this, and I think they also realize that they need a GOOD update to the powerbooks to tide the base over until the intel and software fit.
Heres hoping they see the logic in this!

I agree, I was just joking (see the ?). It is much to soon to be seeing an Intel-based machine, so the new PowerBook will no doubt be a 7448 with other upgrades - substantial enough to get people by until the Intel PBs do indeed come out in 2006.

 

[BGil]

Add another $129.95 for Virtual PC 7. Maybe that's what he was referring to with the $300 comment.

Squire

I though VPC for Mac came with an copy of XP.

 

[Squire]

I though VPC for Mac came with an copy of XP.

Since VPC 7 (I think), they have made a standalone version. (I'm sure there's a bundled version with both XP and the emulator but I'm too lazy to check through the software on the Apple store to find the price.)

Virtual PC 7 - Standalone - For customers who already have their own legally licensed copy of Windows.

By the way, since the last time I checked, they've added a $30 rebate on it.

Squire

 

[~Shard~]

Since VPC 7 (I think), they have made a standalone version. (I'm sure there's a bundled version with both XP and the emulator but I'm too lazy to check through the software on the Apple store to find the price.)

Virtual PC 7 - Standalone - For customers who already have their own legally licensed copy of Windows.

By the way, since the last time I checked, they've added a $30 rebate on it.

Squire

VPC 7 also comes bundled with Office 2004 Professional.

 

[Squire]

VPC 7 also comes bundled with Office 2004 Professional.

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

Squire