PowerMacs and PowerBooks Delays?

[Vlade]

The larger die size will actually make cooling easier as the heat is more spreadout and not so concentrated, think of it as Watts/mm^2. As for the max power dissipation it is much higher than you think. The 3GHz prescot last time I heard was around 115-120W with the 3.4GHz at 140-150W, whether or not these are accurate is another matter, however in my experience values provided by manufacturers are lower.

The 3.2GHZ EE machine uses 95 watts I think, if not its close to there (within 10)

What i'm saying about die size is what you are saying, but it isn't as important as many people say, because as long as you have good thermal grease heat transfer to the heat sink isn't the problem, its the sink to air.

 

[Voiteur]

ejecting options

other options for ejecting with a mac (if you own a keyboard):
-highlight the icon of what you want to eject and hit command E (as in eject) on the keyboard.

and sure there aren't two buttons on the mouse but you can get the same effect by:
holding control on the keyboard while you click...
or holding the mouse click and tugging down slightly on it
both should result in the menu of various options

using two hands may be difficult during certain internet experiences... and then I guess the pc mouse is better

 

[satty]

Xserve G5

There seems to be quite a wait for a G5 Xserve.... Are they even shipping yet?

I tried a number of web searches, but didn't find any that said that an Xserve G5 had arrived. Xserve G5 hands-on reviews are hard to find as well.

Perhaps supplies of the PPC970FX are constrained at all speed levels?

I mentioned it already yesterday, that I never heard of shipment of G5 Xserves so far. And here is a new article from appleinsider:

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=383

 

[klaus]

using two hands may be difficult during certain internet experiences... and then I guess the pc mouse is better

explain that a bit more in detail, cause seriously, I have no idea what you are talkin' about 😀
at second thought..maybe you shouldn't tell..there's an audience..

back on topic now...

Since i've been waiting quite a while on the updated Powermacs, a month or perhaps 2 will not make a huge difference, to me that is off course, I rather have them pop out a decent, high quality machine, than one with a few bugs still in them... and hopefully they'll have a bigger stock when they do launch, cause I know a few people who're finger tricky..ready to place order on the rev B machines.. and they won't be the only ones (wild guess 😛 )

cheers

 

[a17inchFuture]

....You absolutely can't buy a mouse made by anyone else but apple because obviously apple hardware is not compatible with anything.

Don't know where this convo started, but the above statement is wrong. I have a mac, and a i have a kensinton mouse, three buttons, with a scroll wheel. All I had to do was install software.

Oh, and you can "wrong click" which i am taking to mean right-click, with the standard one button mouse by pressing and holding control before clicking

 

[Kagetenshi]

Someone missed a /sarcasm tag.

~J

 

[jwhitnah]

I mentioned it already yesterday, that I never heard of shipment of G5 Xserves so far. And here is a new article from appleinsider:

http://www.appleinsider.com/news.php?id=383

It's like the 1999 G4 500 MHz all over again. No uprade in nearly a YEAR (discounting the dual 1.8). Ain't no way we're gonna get to 3 GHz by September. I am soooo bitter!

 

[jettredmont]

Of coarse you need fans but depending on your radiator your not gona be using numersous 45db 80mm fans but a couple 120mm each at 15-25db depending on the fan. The point that Iam trying to make is that liquid cooling will get you lower temperatures without the noise no mater how big or how loud that HSF combination of an air-cooler will be.

And the point I am making is that, no matter how you transport that heat through the case, the volumetric air flow to *remove* it from the case has to be the same no matter what.

Liquid cooling allows you flexibility in design, and the ability to avoid having multiple huge heat sinks. You only need to have *one* huge "heat sink"/radiator (whichever terminology you prefer; they perform identical functions in a near-identical manner). However, if you need 14 CFM blowing through your laptop to cool off your two 3GHz processors, moving that heat to a central location and blowing air across one heat sink doesn't change that fact: you still need 14 CFM of air blowing in!

That having been said, yes, air blowing across one properly-designed heat sink will emit a bit less noise than having the same amount of air blowing across the rather jagged and obstructed surface of a motherboard, heat sink, hard drive, etc space. I don't think most of the noise comes from this source, however; I believe (perhaps unjustifiably) that most of the noise is just from the fan operation itself. I base this solely on the experience of hearing an empty case's fans start up, which was fully as loud (perhaps even moreso) as a loaded case with its fans on.

Also, remember that your liquid cooling mechanism will generally have a pump instead of relying on convective flow (especially in a might-be-running-upside-down laptop environment). Such pumps tend to add more noise again. And they add a small amount more heat to be removed, for whatever that's worth.

What liquid-cooling buys is flexibility, not less heat generation, not magical transport of heat away from the case without moving air, etc.

 

[jettredmont]

XP uses the Win2K behaviour if standard user/password login is selected. Since this is the norm in the business world, I'm 88.38217% sure that your 99%+ figure is inaccurate.

First, I'm in a business environment and none of our XP computers have the "standard" user/password (we use the default XP logins). Granted, though, my experience is likely not reflective of the larger trend. We don't use NT domains here either, and perhaps use of domains requires the "ugly" password screen instead of the "pretty" screen, I don't know.

Given, however, that last I heard XP was a significantly bigger hit at home than at businesses, I do believe it is unjustifiable to say that the "average" XP user does things as you say.

Second, in general, when someone says "99%+" it is shorthand for "just about all". Did you really have some odd belief that my number was a reflection of a formal user survey? Giving five digits past the decimal, though, would imply some incredible statistical precision. I am happy that you are able to judge the concensus of your mind with such precision!

"99%+" apparently is incorrect. "More than half" is probably about as accurate as I can give you right now, while I'd guess that the number of people who don't see the drop-down list is probably significantly higher than that.

What was it like on 9.0, 10.0, 10.1, 10.2? Is this new behaviour, or old?

The right-click/eject has been here since at least 10.0. I think it might have shown up in one of the 9.x releases, but it's been too long since I've had to use 9.2 so I can't say for certain. The Panther addition is the visible eject button next to the drive name/icon in the Finder.

And, how can you wrong-click with Apple hardware? The mouse has no buttons! 😱

At which point any reasonable person would shake their head and walk away. But who said I'm reasonable? As you know, Apple works with any USB mouse out there, containing 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, or 101 buttons or more. Moreover, the control key plus a mouse click is exactly equivalent to right-clicking on the Mac OS.

 

[DHagan4755]

Here's my 2¢

I think that Power Macs and PowerBooks are, as has been stated somewhere else, awaiting for the 10.3.3 version to go final before we'll see revisions to these two products.

 

[clr900]

Don't know where this convo started, but the above statement is wrong. I have a mac, and a i have a kensinton mouse, three buttons, with a scroll wheel. All I had to do was install software.

Oh, and you can "wrong click" which i am taking to mean right-click, with the standard one button mouse by pressing and holding control before clicking

I was being sarcastic, I guess it can sometimes be hard to detect when you can't hear a tone of voice.

 

[neonart]

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but... what's your point?
Are you implying that because the above-mentioned machine is a faster gaming machine Apple should not use the best/fastest technology available?

 

[invaLPsion]

Not trying to be a jerk or anything, but... what's your point?
Are you implying that because the above-mentioned machine is a faster gaming machine Apple should not use the best/fastest technology available?

No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?

 

[WM.]

Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?

No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?

Say it with me now: aapppplleess toooo oorraannggeess.

Ain't no way to predict. I'd go so far as to say that there's no such thing as an unbiased, comprehensive benchmark when you're talking about either of the following:

• Different OSes
• Different chip architectures (PPC vs. x86)

With this kind of a comparison, you're talking about both. Plus, if you're really serious about gaming (to the point where you're spending $3k [!] on gaming machines), you probably shouldn't be using a Mac--at least, not for the games. If you have other high-performance computing needs, get the next graphics card option down and use the money you save for a console. If your computer usage consists of a) surfing the web and b) playing games, get an eMac or something and a fancy, custom-built Alienware or whatever.

I think PC People™ often discount the used Mac market more than they should. If you really are looking at a current eMac, a Digital Audio or newer Power Mac will get you exactly the same features (after a processor upgrade) and a ton more expandability for about the same price. So look into that as well. (This is all assuming you're a prospective switcher.)

WM (non-gamer)

EDIT: Blargh, it would be nice if sigs showed up in the Preview Post thing. (Maybe it should be an option?) I didn't see that you already have an iMac (G3). In which case I would say, a used PMG4 would still give you an upgrade and a lot more expandability. I still don't think a PMG5 is quite what you want. Plus, I'm not sure what "game load times" are anyway...

 

[HiRez]

if you're really serious about gaming (to the point where you're spending $3k [!] on gaming machines), you probably shouldn't be using a Mac--at least, not for the games. If you have other high-performance computing needs, get the next graphics card option down and use the money you save for a console.

I agree, after years of putting an emphasis on having the very fastest PowerMac/PowerBook for the games, I found it was getting way too expensive. So, now I don't worry about buying Mac games, I got a PS2 and found a ton of great games for it, many under $20 now. They still look good, have smooth framerates, and I can play them on my 31" television with great audio through the stereo. There are zero configuration/upgrade/patch/compatibility woes to worry about, as all console games must work out of the box on identical hardware. Furthermore, I can rent games I'm not sure about at the video store. The best thing is I now save a lot of money and don't feel the Mac "second-class citizen" envy or upgrade guilt anymore.

 

[PretendPCuser]

INtel has the upper hand

They've been having to cool those bitches off for such a long time, they have more R&D dollars sunk into that than Apple. Lease the technology!

Just kidding.

Bundle a water cooler with any new G5 and be done with it.... Powerbook, well, uh, i don't know about that one.

 

[Kagetenshi]

I, on the other hand, am a semidedicated Mac gamer, and I disagree with your statements. Well, it depends greatly on the types of games you enjoy; I play Myth and its sequels, the Marathon series, the Doom and Quake series, and the original Unreal Tournament fetishistically; you can be serious about gaming without having to play every single new game that comes out. If you game professionally on something other than Quake III or UT, then maybe you need to write off the Mac platform, but otherwise it just comes down to how much variety you need.

~J

 

[WM.]

I, on the other hand, am a semidedicated Mac gamer, and I disagree with your statements. Well, it depends greatly on the types of games you enjoy; I play Myth and its sequels, the Marathon series, the Doom and Quake series, and the original Unreal Tournament fetishistically; you can be serious about gaming without having to play every single new game that comes out. If you game professionally on something other than Quake III or UT, then maybe you need to write off the Mac platform, but otherwise it just comes down to how much variety you need.

Right. But I assume invaLPsion is a pretty serious, cutting-edge gamer (or wants to be one), because he's asking about the prospective top-of-the-line Power Mac vs. a top-of-the-line PC. And even for the games that are on the Mac...I guess this was kind of my point with the first part of my post: there's no way to know how a G5 Rev. B will compete with a high-end PC. If I really had to guess, I might say that the PC will still win, because the PC version of whatever game is going to be more heavily optimized and MS has probably made darn sure that DirectX makes all the top games as fast as possible. Apple, on the other hand, has to work within the bounds of OpenGL to some extent (though I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to games on any platform, so feel free to jump in, everybody).

In any case, I don't disagree with you. 🙂

WM

 

[AidenShaw]

We don't use NT domains here either, and perhaps use of domains requires the ...

If it isn't required, it's probably the default. Domain security policy overrides local security policy.

I checked one of my XP systems that's part of the domain, and the screen for choosing between logins does not even appear as an option.

Just like your "99%+ meant 'almost all'", my absurdly precise number meant "this statistic is BS".... 😉

And of course I said "Apple hardware" because I knew that industry standard mouses work on a Mac. (My personal requirement is a 5 button wheel mouse, anything less cuts into productivity....)

Cheers!

 

[Deltan]

I just bought a 1Ghz 12" PowerBook on the weekend to replace my piece of crap iBook 700. Was that not a good idea? I will kick myself if they come out with G5 PB's this year. Mannn is there any time of the year where it's safe to purchase Apple hardware? 😀

Not that I wanna get into the iBook thing, but basically it died a year ago, Apple Logic Board Replacement program fixed it once in early Feb, then it died again and I just said screw it and they bought it from me at a decent value. I also had 3 batteries under warranty as well as a new hard drive outside of warranty. It was a total lemon. 🙁

 

[invaLPsion]

Right. But I assume invaLPsion is a pretty serious, cutting-edge gamer (or wants to be one), because he's asking about the prospective top-of-the-line Power Mac vs. a top-of-the-line PC. And even for the games that are on the Mac...I guess this was kind of my point with the first part of my post: there's no way to know how a G5 Rev. B will compete with a high-end PC. If I really had to guess, I might say that the PC will still win, because the PC version of whatever game is going to be more heavily optimized and MS has probably made darn sure that DirectX makes all the top games as fast as possible. Apple, on the other hand, has to work within the bounds of OpenGL to some extent (though I don't really know what I'm talking about when it comes to games on any platform, so feel free to jump in, everybody).

In any case, I don't disagree with you. 🙂

WM

I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.

I know it is apples to oranges when comparing PCs and Macs in most applications but NOT in gaming. Frame rates can be measured and load times can be measured for the same game on different computers.

When I asked the original question I was merely asking for some fun speculation. It was taken way too seriously.

I hope that sorts things out... 🙄

 

[greenstork]

Amen! I have been complaining about Apple's focus on iTMS and iPods for a couple of months now. Since the Super Bowl the front page of Apple.com was the Pepsi promotion for three weeks. Right up until the week before the mini launch. Now it has been the mini since. Apple is becoming a Digital Music company. It is fast approaching six months since they have offered a new computer (the G4 iBook). While I am sure that Apple is making money, I don't think this the best thing for loyal Apple customers. I love my iMac and am looking forward to Apple offering a reasonable priced replacement, but I have no interest in spending $250+ on an MP3 player.

Everytime Apple talks about marketshare and profits lately, it is related to the iPod and iTMS. We have heard claims that the iPod and iTMS for Windows were supposed to get people to switch to Macs, but other that anecdotal evidence on these boards. Has anyone see seen any real numbers to back this up?

Meanwhile, Apple has "the fastest personal computer ever" and what most people agree (even Windows fans) the most rock-solid OS on the market, but they are not marketing them at all. Where are the G5 commercials with dancing silhouettes or heck maybe even a nice OS X spot.

Hey Steve, it's the computers, stupid!

Thank god you're not running Apple because you haven't a clue. The iPod makes so much damn money that it allows Apple to continue to exist and be profitable. It's not like they will, all of a sudden, drop personal computers from their lineup. That said, a long term strategy of profitability will ensure that they continue to produce great computers. Many stock market analysts agree as noted by Apple's stock price:

Apple's iPod Could Transform Company

 

[Barham]

Yes, that G5 will keep up with the PC. I can't say whether it will beat the pc or not, but I do know that it will stick with it. The PC will certainly not "kick any G5's ass". That particular person doesn't know what they are talking about. From what I've seen, games that are truly built for and optimized for OSX (Warcraft III in particular) run much better with a lower end system. War III on my Quicksilver G4 867 with a Geforce 3 runs many games just as smoothly as self proclaimed "Gaming PC's" and at the same detail level.

The problem with Macs for games is absolutely not performance (especially with games built for Mac OSX), rather it is the lack of games that is the problem. Most Mac games are ports and thus inferior code. A great amount of popular games aren't even published for Mac at all, and ports come out as far as a year later than their PC counter parts. If every company was like Blizzard, it wouldn't be a problem. Sadly that is not the case.


Your friend is wrong about the G5.

-Hasta

 

[neonart]

No, I'm seriously asking. Do you think that the new G5 would beat that computer?

OK. Cool. Sorry if I jumped a little on that one.
I would venture to say that a High End PC will have a gaming advantage over a Mac at least for some time to come. The reason is not the hardware- it's software. We've seen how the dual G5's have killed in independent PS tests. We've seen G5's make an evil supercomputer on a budget (so to speak @ $5+Mill). But there's nothing we can do about bad ports, unoptimized games, and weak video card drivers.
If a game developer said I'm making a really sweet game to run on PPC architecture, based on whatever we can squeeze from OpenGL, that takes advantage of the Velocity Engine and Dual processors, we would have an absolutely KILLER game. The last company to really get in the mindset of thinking of the Mac while making a killer title was Bungie*. We know how that worked out...

But regardless. When It comes to gaming on the Mac, it's not about who you can beat in FPS. It's about gaming on your platform of choice and enjoying it. That's why I love it. But I realize it'll be long before my Mac will out FPS my friends 6.9Ghz P7 with an ATI R9900.

It's funny though how these threads seem to always get into the gaming topic...

*Games like Warcraft, UT, Quake, and a few others are pretty good Mac games, but certainly not designed with the Mac in mind first.

 

[Borg3of5]

Cooligy+Apple=PB G5

I may be a newbie around here, and probably the closest anyone here will ever be to being a 'dumb jock' type, but here goes.

Tonight, 02 March 2004, on TechTv's "The Screensavers," co-host Patrick Norton had a good 10 minute spot with an associate professor at Stanford University (20 miles or closer to Cupertino [read Apple HQ]). This professor displayed and discussed models, mock-ups, and chalk-boarded inner workings of the concept behind Cooligy.

Although the professor didn't mention Apple per se, the whole technology goes along the 'Think Different' campaign that Apple touts. The whole thing smells of Apple. The prof. also advised that he and his students at Stanford have been working with 'major' companies in developing the technology, and that a product featuring Cooligy will be released within the year.

I smell PM G5 rev.B, and PB G5's. Something is being water-cooled in the R&D section in Cupertino. 🙂

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/shownotes/story/0,24330,3626775,00.html