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neonart said:
If a game developer said I'm making a really sweet game to run on PPC architecture, based on whatever we can squeeze from OpenGL, that takes advantage of the Velocity Engine and Dual processors, we would have an absolutely KILLER game. The last company to really get in the mindset of thinking of the Mac while making a killer title was Bungie*. We know how that worked out...

Heh. After your first sentence, I hit "reply" with the thought in my head "If it were ten years earlier, Bungie would've been that company". It was only while editing your quote that I noticed you'd already mentioned them.

Man, I miss old-school Bungie. We need something like Bungie Mk. II.

~J
 
I have a great idea for a poll: What do you think will be the next powerbook?

A) G5

B) G4

C) G4 other (i.e. dual, etc.)

D) G5 other (i.e. cooligy tech, etc.)

And for conversation, what do people think is going to come out next and when? My vote is for g5 at 1.75 ghz and very little new technology in a new darker casing.
 
invaLPsion said:
I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.
My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.
 
johnnyjibbs said:
My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.

I have no interest in games. Don't need to impress any friends, that would be wrong anyway. Owning a PC is not an option. Really want the performance of a G5, then I can get a 23" Cinema Display. Having the performance of a dual G5, dream dual 3.0, will also help Stanford with medical disease research and the MacRumors folding team.


a17inchFuture, I want Apple to continue with the current case. Am looking for Rev. B interior upgrades & increase standandard memory.
 
jettredmont said:
And the point I am making is that, no matter how you transport that heat through the case, the volumetric air flow to *remove* it from the case has to be the same no matter what.

Liquid cooling allows you flexibility in design, and the ability to avoid having multiple huge heat sinks. You only need to have *one* huge "heat sink"/radiator (whichever terminology you prefer; they perform identical functions in a near-identical manner). However, if you need 14 CFM blowing through your laptop to cool off your two 3GHz processors, moving that heat to a central location and blowing air across one heat sink doesn't change that fact: you still need 14 CFM of air blowing in!

That having been said, yes, air blowing across one properly-designed heat sink will emit a bit less noise than having the same amount of air blowing across the rather jagged and obstructed surface of a motherboard, heat sink, hard drive, etc space. I don't think most of the noise comes from this source, however; I believe (perhaps unjustifiably) that most of the noise is just from the fan operation itself. I base this solely on the experience of hearing an empty case's fans start up, which was fully as loud (perhaps even moreso) as a loaded case with its fans on.

Also, remember that your liquid cooling mechanism will generally have a pump instead of relying on convective flow (especially in a might-be-running-upside-down laptop environment). Such pumps tend to add more noise again. And they add a small amount more heat to be removed, for whatever that's worth.

What liquid-cooling buys is flexibility, not less heat generation, not magical transport of heat away from the case without moving air, etc.

Pumps are generaly silent, assuming you mount it properly to avoid vibrations and also insolulate it to minimise any noise but then again its only the high flow pumps that make any noise. As for the air flowing in this is decreased as all major heatsources are covered with water blocks hence they donot affect the ambient air in the chassis, iam assuming the radiator is external in this situation. Any remaining heatsources (RAM, mosfets, video card memory) i usally slap on large tall heatsinks (cut by myself from CPU heatsinks) to sort that out.
 
invaLPsion said:
Do you think a dual G5 with a PCI-express graphics card will be able to beat a 3.2P4 AGP 8x computer at game load times and gaming?
No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.

IF you want to play games a PC will provide more performance and a bigger list of titles It will also allow me to tweak/overclock, try different cooling techniques/components, use the latest components and generaly modify actual H/W, this PC i call this my experimental PC where I can try lots of different things.
 
actually kinda glad they are being delayed... i just bought a 15-incher.

i never intended on doing it, but the temptation was getting too great.

i was going to wait for the rev b powerbook g5. at least this new comp will make the wait less excruciating.
 
Apple Refurbs

Just wanted to let all of you know if you "need" a G5 Apple has had a lot of Refurbs on the Special Deals page lately. I was seeing just the singles 1.8s on lately and in the last few days ive seen the 1.6,1.8, and dual 1.8. Figured id just let you know.
 
johnnyjibbs said:
My advice: don't get a dual G5 just because you want to prove a performance point to your friend. You'll probably find that the G5 doesn't win games-wise for the aforementioned reasons, but it will beat it on all other intensive tasks. But, do you really want to spend $3k on that for a point? Save the money, buy a console or a cheap high performance PC (even a cheap Dell will do the trick) and then get a cheaper Mac as your next one.

I am getting a mac because I love and have used macs for my entire life. Beating my friend would be an added bonus... 😀
 
bah

When is anything by Apple not delayed anymore? Heck, the way things are going they tell you about something then it takes 6-8 weeks before you can buy it. Not to mention the delay prior to announcing it in the first place.....
 
invaLPsion said:
I am not a cutting edge gamer in any way. I am simply interested in making my friend eat his words about his 3.2 P4 kicking any G5s ass in gaming.

I know it is apples to oranges when comparing PCs and Macs in most applications but NOT in gaming. Frame rates can be measured and load times can be measured for the same game on different computers.
Yes, they can be compared, but you're not really playing the same game. At least for good ports (see neonart's and Kagetenshi's posts), the code must be very different. It's still apples to oranges as much as any other application IMHO. Several posters have spelled it out pretty well, and I'd like to add another facet of the unfair PC advantage: ATI and Nvidia design their GPUs for DirectX first and OpenGL second. And usually, MS reciprocates: my perception is that DirectX often supports cool new features in GPUs long before Apple's implementation of OpenGL does.
When I asked the original question I was merely asking for some fun speculation. It was taken way too seriously.
That's fine, but when trying to spark fun speculation, it really helps to say so, and to avoid phrases like "I'm seriously asking".
I hope that sorts things out... 🙄
Yup.

WM
 
army_guy said:
Pumps are generaly silent, assuming you mount it properly to avoid vibrations and also insolulate it to minimise any noise but then again its only the high flow pumps that make any noise. As for the air flowing in this is decreased as all major heatsources are covered with water blocks hence they donot affect the ambient air in the chassis, iam assuming the radiator is external in this situation. Any remaining heatsources (RAM, mosfets, video card memory) i usally slap on large tall heatsinks (cut by myself from CPU heatsinks) to sort that out.
Pumps aren't silent by any means. They aren't that noisy but unless you're deaf they aren't silent (exception would be the ones that have no moving parts of course).

Air flow doesn't change except to due to better overall design of the air coolers (improving your heat transfer coeffs). You can prove this very easily by just doing an energy balance over the system. What you can do is move where and how the airflow takes place but you can't change the need for it, the laws of thermodynamics demand it. All water coolers do is give you flexibility in how you design the air coolers in a computer so you can design them more efficiently.

army_guy said:
No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.
PCI-Express' development had absolutely nothing to do with DX8 or 9 and it offers absolutely nothing in terms of BW between CPU and RAM since the FSB will remain proprietary or on chip and PCI-Express doesn't connect the memory.

PCI-Express was developed because PCI and PCI-X didn't supply the bandwidth over the long term that was needed for expansion cards and was a pain to scale due to signal degradation and AGP was reaching the end of its rope as well. PCI-Express also offers a long list of benefits over current PCI, not least of which is point to point communications, full-duplex transfer, lower latency, hot-swapping, lower total cost and better power management. Gee none of that's useful in any way 🙄

AGP was specifically designed for graphics but even current graphics chips don't utilise all the downstream bandwidth AGP 8x has to offer. The areas PCI-Express will be stronger for graphics are the improvement of latency and upstream bandwidth, which OS X and Longhorn will both appreciate as will video editors, support for more power, 60W over 25W, and better signaling. The upstream bandwidth will be particularly of interest to farming more stuff off to the GPU from the CPU. All of the major strengths of PCI-Express come out of its design as a PCI replacement though and are just as useful for Macs as PCs.
 
I thought the pumps for liquid cooling ARE silent (check out the cooligy site), because (as mentioned) no moving parts - charged ions and the like. As for fan noise, wouldn't a large radiator with tiny channels be able to cool more efficiently than a regular heat sink using the same airflow, thus needing less airflow to do the same job? Obviously cooling a computer isn't JUST a question of airflow but of surface area / volume, unless the air coming out was the same temperature as the processor (which is impossible, of course, but you see what I'm saying?)

So liquid cooling would probably be slightly less noisy. Doesn't mean it's going to happen -- put it in the "quad processor" pile with the other things that people have been talking about for years that won't happen any time soon. At least, that's where my money is. Or will be. When the new G5 comes out. I'm betting some time between 5 days and 6 months, and that's my official prediction!
 
Telomar said:
The areas PCI-Express will be stronger for graphics are the improvement of latency and upstream bandwidth, which OS X and Longhorn will both appreciate as will video editors, support for more power, 60W over 25W, and better signaling.
I couldn't possibly comment on most of your post, but I'm pretty sure AGP 8X Pro is out there (like on the PMG5), with up to 75 W of power available. At this point, there aren't any Mac-compatible cards that take advantage of it AFAIK, and the G5 can only supply 90 W to all the expansion cards, total, so with a Pro card you'll only have enough power for one PCI card, I think...so it's not tremendously useful right now. 🙂 But it does exist.

FWIW
WM
 
History leads to this conclusion

A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.
 
Cloetus said:
A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.


Nooooooooo!!! 🙁
 
army_guy said:
No, the G5 is not meant to be a gaming machine, we have PCI-EXPRESS because AGP is running out of steam when it comes to DX8/9 games and also when using high resolutions/anti-aliasing/anistropic filtering etc.. hence more BW is needed to the CPU and RAM. As OSX games dont have DirectX theres no reason to use PCI-EXPRESS. PCI-EXPRESS for the MAC will be used for the video editing stuff and also due to the fact that the PCB design will be very simple comapared to AGP8X.

IF you want to play games a PC will provide more performance and a bigger list of titles It will also allow me to tweak/overclock, try different cooling techniques/components, use the latest components and generaly modify actual H/W, this PC i call this my experimental PC where I can try lots of different things.

The PM G5 is ment ot be the Best of the Best. In all areas, or so the price tag would suggest. While not owning a mac currently, I do belive OpenGL runs natively on the mac OS, and there are plenty of titles avaliable useing that code.

It's worth taking a look at www.ati.com for a full wrap on PCI-Express.

Also, it would seem odd to update the flagship model at this late stage, when the release of DDRII is so near.
An updated model in my opinion should have been released in late january just to tired people over before the release of a true Rev B machine with all the new bell's and whistles.
 
WM. said:
I couldn't possibly comment on most of your post, but I'm pretty sure AGP 8X Pro is out there (like on the PMG5), with up to 75 W of power available. At this point, there aren't any Mac-compatible cards that take advantage of it AFAIK, and the G5 can only supply 90 W to all the expansion cards, total, so with a Pro card you'll only have enough power for one PCI card, I think...so it's not tremendously useful right now. 🙂 But it does exist.

FWIW
WM

Well 60W isnt really enough for highend 3D cards so the higher power delivery of PCI express is obsolite allready (also considering the development of DUAL chip video cards and the current cards chew at least 50-70W). There is no 75W AGP standard its Apple's way of saying we can make our own. Theres AGP50 (provides upto 50W) mostly used for the WILDCAT cards and theres AGP110W (upto 110W) which powers high end cards from SGI and others.

As for DDR2 it will make systems (G5/P4/Opteron/FX) slower and has done allready for the P4, the latency is too high (CAS 4-5 vs CAS 2-3) and the clock speed is too low for it to out perform DDR1. Only when 667-800MHz DDR2 arrives will performance be higher. I should also mention the current price of DDR2.

512MB DDR2 400MHZ (CAS 5) $950 (it will drop, but IMO when INTEL releases ALDERWOOD/GRANTSDALE it will be around $600-$800.

VS

2048MB DDR1 400MHZ ECC Registered Crucial/Samsung (CAS 2.5-3) $999

and still the DDR1 will be noticibly faster.
 
AppleInsider posted a little report about PowerMac delays (duh) -- then followed up with a report that the XServes have been delayed, shipping no sooner than the end of the month.

If true, this is not good for those of us waiting on G5 updates. I would suppose that the earliest we could expect an announcement would be March 30th, with shipping several weeks after that.

I have to say that Apple continues to be Apple -- slow, poorly thought out product introductions. Think about MWSF. Jobs introduced a new iLife -- but it turns out that iDVD was not ready for prime time. Jobs introduced the new XServe -- but as of today the new servers are not shipping (two months after the announcement). Jobs promised new products and an exciting anniversary year. Well, the first quarter really sucks: no G5s, no laptops, no displays, no servers, no iMacs. Yikes, nothing but a mini iPod and a couple of very minor revisions to software.

IBM might be a better supplier than Motorola, but unless Apple changes it won't mean anything will really improve. I suppose that two months from now, when I have a new G5 under my desk I'll feel better about this.
 
numediaman said:
AppleInsider posted a little report about PowerMac delays (duh) -- then followed up with a report that the XServes have been delayed, shipping no sooner than the end of the month.

If true, this is not good for those of us waiting on G5 updates. I would suppose that the earliest we could expect an announcement would be March 30th, with shipping several weeks after that.

I have to say that Apple continues to be Apple -- slow, poorly thought out product introductions. Think about MWSF. Jobs introduced a new iLife -- but it turns out that iDVD was not ready for prime time. Jobs introduced the new XServe -- but as of today the new servers are not shipping (two months after the announcement). Jobs promised new products and an exciting anniversary year. Well, the first quarter really sucks: no G5s, no laptops, no displays, no servers, no iMacs. Yikes, nothing but a mini iPod and a couple of very minor revisions to software.

IBM might be a better supplier than Motorola, but unless Apple changes it won't mean anything will really improve. I suppose that two months from now, when I have a new G5 under my desk I'll feel better about this.

I agree -- aboslutely piss-poor so far. I think that Apple actual has somethign to be ashamed of with this showing. It is March, and if the rumor mills are correct, it seems we cant expect anything til the end of the month at earliest. And the fact their previously announced stuff has *kinda* shipped is pathetic.

Apple, you better give us some damn g5 pbooks soon, and no more g4 books. That is the only way you will be forgiven.
 
Cloetus said:
A new PowerBook is at least 2 months off -- shortest lifespan of a new PB is 6 months and the average is 8 months, with 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years between new architectures. That means a all-new PB is a good year away.

Its been more than the average "days since update"(check the buyers guide here), and its been almost a year and a half since jan. 2003, and will certainly be by the time anything PB ships.

So I guess my question is, what on earth are you talkin about? I strongly disagree with you and would like to point out that tehcnology controls the curve, not some prior history nonsense. And they have new tech, that would call for a new architecture. Apple doesn't sit on tech; new pb's will be here soon(ish).
 
Delays, what delays?

The way I understand it, nothing is actually delayed because Apple hasn't announced any new products yet! So their not late on delivering because they haven’t said they'll deliver. General feeling on this thread is that Apple has announced delays when they haven't even said what's coming yet.
 
army_guy said:
Dont forget that powerbook will not have the same number of fans as the Xserve. As for the 90nm, as I said before they are more difficult to cool due to the smaller contact area hence even though they dissipate less heat they will run at higher core temperatures. The solution is to use bigger heatsinks or faster fans hence this could be one of the reasons for the delays though I would of thought Apple would have it sorted allready if they wanted faster CPUS.

There is no 60nm its 65nm, the cooling problem is much worse here.

Why use fans ? Isn't liquid cooling the best for small foot prints ? Just a question, I'm no specialist..
 
As previously mentioned, unless your supply of liquid is large enough to not require any active heat exchange, which won't be the case in a small footprint, you still need a fan to move the heat. Liquid cooling just helps move the heat around so it can be removed more efficiently.

~J
 
Kagetenshi said:
As previously mentioned, unless your supply of liquid is large enough to not require any active heat exchange, which won't be the case in a small footprint, you still need a fan to move the heat. Liquid cooling just helps move the heat around so it can be removed more efficiently.

~J

Another quote from

http://www.theregister.com/content/3/33252.html

Intel, AMD and IBM could soon been shipping water-cooled processors to boost clock frequencies without putting extra strain on notebook, desktop and server heat management systems, courtesy of a new technique developed by Stanford University spin-off company Cooligy.

Doesn't that mean that the heatproblem looks like its resolved ?
 
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