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Originally posted by MacBandit


I agree with you by the specs and I am not trying to flame you butt as I have been told the PCMCIA bus is capable of a max throuput in the real world in/out of 2-3MB/s. This is very close to the real world throuput of the 802.11g standard. It could be that the tests of the 802.11g cards have been tested using the PCMCIA bus and therefore is being limited to that number.

All I know is that Apple went with there own interface which is very similar to a compact PCI slot because of the limitations of PCMCIA. There slot is supposed to be much faster in real world throuput. I don't have any numbers for you and we won't be able to test this theory until someone receives a new powerbook and tests it using a Airport Extreme station. It will be interesting to see how the numbers come out as compared to the pcmcia 802.11g cards.

Lastly who is using card bus? It's not in use yet is it? Maybe this is what the slot is that Apple is using. I do know of card bus and know that it has a much higher throuput then PCMCIA and you are correct is basically a mini-PCI slot.

Well, I'd like to talk to whoever you got your information from because the 16bit PCMCIA is not that slow. Perhaps what they meant to say is that 802.11g only goes that fast, which would be a much more reasonable number considering the nature of wireless communications. Card Bus is used by many things- special, high end 10/100 cards (which our lab uses), Firewire cards, anything that needs a super fast transfer rate uses Cardbus.

I do not know what interface that the 802.11g card uses because, quite frankly, I haven't seen it yet. I do know that the older airport cards were indeed just PCMCIA cards.
 
Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Bregalad


The fact that Blue & White G3's are still commanding $400 is proof that Mac users all over the world have more money than brains. There is no reason for Macs to depreciate so much slower than PCs. Heck you can put a faster G4 upgrade into a PowerMac 8500 than you can into a B&W. Anyone think the 8500 should still be worth $400?

My B&W, even without the G4 400 I dropped it it, still runs OS X and Final Cut Pro 3. In fact, the only software a stock B&W can't run is iDVD and DVD Studio pro. (Drop a G4 and Pioneer DVD-RW in and iDVD2 works - I know from experience!)

The only two things newer PowerMacs have that I wish I could add are: AGP video cards and dual processors.
 
Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw


My B&W, even without the G4 400 I dropped it it, still runs OS X and Final Cut Pro 3. In fact, the only software a stock B&W can't run is iDVD and DVD Studio pro. (Drop a G4 and Pioneer DVD-RW in and iDVD2 works - I know from experience!)

The only two things newer PowerMacs have that I wish I could add are: AGP video cards and dual processors.

macs are built ford tough:D

my ibook, nearly as old as your b and w is doing well, too
 
Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by PROZAKY
Are you sure that the 7457 will still be at a disadvantage with DDR the way the current processors are now?

According to the Motorola roadmap I saw the 7457 will only support a single data rate bus. There was a 7457RM or some such thing mentioned in the late 2003/early 2004 timeframe that would have DDR capabilities, but I think we're all hoping that the PPC 970 will be out before that chip sees the light of day.

To the person who actually priced out upgrades to a PowerMac 8500, I can't help but laugh. Of course the 8500 isn't worth $400, but neither is the B&W.

Remember folks $600 gets a brand new 1.8GHz PC or a used 350MHz G4. Tell me the Mac buyer gets the better deal in that equation and I'll be recommending you spend the rest of your life in a padded room where you can't hurt yourself or anyone else.
 
Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
My B&W, even without the G4 400 I dropped it it, still runs OS X and Final Cut Pro 3. In fact, the only software a stock B&W can't run is iDVD and DVD Studio pro. (Drop a G4 and Pioneer DVD-RW in and iDVD2 works - I know from experience!)

The only two things newer PowerMacs have that I wish I could add are: AGP video cards and dual processors.

The 1999 era 466MHz PC I have collecting dust still runs the latest operating systems and software available for it too. Unlike contemporary Macs it has a 2x AGP slot and room for more than one internal optical drive. For non-Altivec enhanced applications it probably outperforms your G4 upgraded B&W too yet I'd be lucky to get $200 for it. On that basis a comparably equipped B&W is worth, at most, $300.

Of course if prices were based solely on performance, the dual 1.25GHz PowerMac would have to be around $1600 to compete against PCs with equal video editing performance. We all know that pigs will fly to the moon under their own power before Apple releases a competitively priced tower.
 
Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Bregalad


The 1999 era 466MHz PC I have collecting dust still runs

Most 1999 era PCs do not.


For non-Altivec enhanced applications it probably outperforms your G4 upgraded B&W too yet I'd be lucky to get $200 for it. On that basis a comparably equipped B&W is worth, at most, $300.

That would be true, save for a few things. You can buy a 3 year old Mac, and expect it to run for 3 more years. I just retired my last 9600 (circa 1997) to eBay. It was running OSX 10.2.3 (yes, a hack was necessary), with decent performance for mainstream tasks. It
'll prolly be used for 2-3 more years. I had both a G3 500, and a 604e, and BOTH ran Jag acceptably. You can eek a lot of life out of an older Mac.

Back to B & W's, I have a B & W 400, running as a dev server, with Jag, Apache (38 individual sites), MySQL, WebObjects, and a whole boatload of server strength software. It may not get good frame rates in Quake, it may not have the horespower to stream video to world+dog, but it works, and it works well & reliably (something Windows has yet to acheive, and Linux can't offer a non geek).

Furthermore, for someone like my [insert non tech savvy relative here], it would be a great and usable machine for the next 3 years. The OS is current, the software is current, etc.

Lemme know in three years if you are still using your PC.


Of course if prices were based solely on performance, the dual 1.25GHz PowerMac would have to be around $1600 to compete against PCs with equal video editing performance. We all know that pigs will fly to the moon under their own power before Apple releases a competitively priced tower.

Since I read all these great comparisons about how PCs are x seconds faster, I do wanna point out one thing.

If you have to spend 100-150 minutes per week dealing with:
500 pop up windows
1 critical update
4 BSODs
2 .dll conflicts
5 virus scans
5 spyware checks
10 unnecessary reboots

...but your Mac is 50 minutes slower (in raw procesing time), the Mac user still does 50-100 minutes more per week of work.

I've seen the same thing happen around many offices (as a consultant, I've done a lot of hardware site, upgrade, rollout, and installation planning for small & large companies). The brains in accounting give the creatives a bunch of shiny new Dell's.

The creatives laugh at the UI, fight the system, don't want to tinker with their registry's, then have to tinker with their registry's, break things, call IT (cause they can't fix it anymore), and fail to produce. They are still earning money while failing to produce, as is the IT monkey doing the repair.

After 30-90 days of this, they get their old Macs back (missed dealines + recent change == undo), and accounting get a bunch of 'almost' new Dells.

As has been said a million times before, the better something works, the more it costs. In a market where people are earning $75+/hr whether their machine is running or not, it's best to keep the machines running, no?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Nipsy

Since I read all these great comparisons about how PCs are x seconds faster, I do wanna point out one thing.

If you have to spend 100-150 minutes per week dealing with:
500 pop up windows
1 critical update
4 BSODs
2 .dll conflicts
5 virus scans
5 spyware checks
10 unnecessary reboots

...but your Mac is 50 minutes slower (in raw procesing time), the Mac user still does 50-100 minutes more per week of work.

What if I told you that I spend 0 minutes a week dealing with that stuff? Show me 1 person that has those problems and I'll show you 2 that haven't upgraded their OS (one is running original 9.0.4, the other 10.0.4) because their teachers at school told them they shouldn't. Seem ridiculous? So is your statement. Both the PC and Mac market are composed of 10-15% worth of idiots- just because the PC has a larger market share (and thus more idiots) doesn't mean the entire market is. And, no, I am not making that up about the gals that won't upgrade their OS- even though I've told them everything about it and how it is safe, they still won't do it based on their art teacher's advice from high school.

FWIW, my 1999 PC is the following:
Dual Celeron 500
544 Megs Ram
GeForce 2 GTS (the original, not mx)
Total of 110 GB of 7200 RPM Disk Space
10x DVD
8x4x32 CDRW

It runs any OS, be it Windows or Linux, with ease. I made that system in September, 1999, and have been doing incremental upgrades (such as the ram) ever since. Just as a 1999 B/W will not run X without a ram upgrade, neither will a 1999 PC run XP without a ram upgrade.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Nipsy


Most 1999 era PCs do not.

I totally have to agree here. I've junked two PCs in the same time my friend has had her Beige G3. I bought a Pentium 200MHz in 1996 - lasted 3 years. I replaced it with an AMD K6-2 466MHz, which also lasted 3 years (died just recently). Now I scavenged the parts from that machine and built a 3rd PC with an Athlon XP 1700+. My friend's Beige G3? It's running OS 10.2.3 like champ.

And let's not even talk about her 1994-vintage PowerBook 520c (100MHz), which runs OS 8.6, allowing it to run modern apps like IE5, the latest version of Fetch, etc. With a good text editor, Fetch, and an SSH client, I actually borrowed her machine to work remotely (I'm a datase/web developer). And the PowerBook 520c is small, light, and beautiful even by today's standards. I was dumbfounded that such a machine could've been built in 1994.

The experience with her Macs convinced me to buy a Mac for my next purchase. When my Dell laptop's display started dying a couple months ago I looked at models from Dell, Sony, Fujitsu and compared them to the iBook. At $1300 the iBook was by far the best value in terms of mobility and ruggedness, my two top criteria. There's really no reason why I can't still be using my trusty little iBook for the rest of the decade. It's great for everything I do - all I really need in a laptop is a lightweight machine that I can use to run internet apps (browser, FTP, SSH, telnet, etc.). And also it makes a great portable DVD player :)

So don't even try to compare a PC's durability with a Mac. It's great that your PC's been running since '99, but show me a PC twice that old and then I'd be impressed....
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by lmalave

So don't even try to compare a PC's durability with a Mac. It's great that your PC's been running since '99, but show me a PC twice that old and then I'd be impressed....

Built my freshmen year of high school, August '96:

486-100
64 megs of ram (max is 128)
4 gb hard drive
2 meg VLB video card
SB 16
ISA 10 BT network card
Windows 95, IE 5.0, Office 97.
CTX 14" monitor that still works just fine

It sits in the basement and makes for a fine online cribbage and spades machine for my sisters.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by locovaca


Built my freshmen year of high school, August '96:

486-100
64 megs of ram (max is 128)
4 gb hard drive
2 meg VLB video card
SB 16
ISA 10 BT network card
Windows 95, IE 5.0, Office 97.
CTX 14" monitor that still works just fine

It sits in the basement and makes for a fine online cribbage and spades machine for my sisters.

Ok, ok, I'm impressed :)

That's the right attitude! Personally, I only throw away machines when I have to, not because I want the coolest/latest machine. I mean, I'm not a gamer (not an action gamer anyway), so I really have very little incentive to do any gratuitous upgrades.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by locovaca


Built my freshmen year of high school, August '96:

486-100
64 megs of ram (max is 128)
4 gb hard drive
2 meg VLB video card
SB 16
ISA 10 BT network card
Windows 95, IE 5.0, Office 97.
CTX 14" monitor that still works just fine

It sits in the basement and makes for a fine online cribbage and spades machine for my sisters.

as a pc techie, i have to also say i am impressed
 
ANY computer, save super cheap ones, will last for a long time if you just take care of it! The reason you see so many macs running longer is that people take care of them- it's the same reason you don't see rusty lexus out in the dump. The difference is that there are so many people that buy e-machines or the Dell Deal of the Month and just let them sit around- they don't blow out the 3 inch dust bunnies that accumulate, they don't worry about pop spilling in their keyboards, etc. Mac users care, partially because they are things of beauty, partially because they pay more money for them, but mainly because they care for their computers! You'd be surprised how many people take their laptops, put them into laptop cases, and literally throw them into the back of the car! Then they wonder why they get all these dead pixels, and in one case, a dead hard drive.
 
Originally posted by locovaca
- they don't blow out the 3 inch dust bunnies that accumulate,

dust bunnies are on my list of nightmares

once my town was invaded by them in 1902 and they ate the mayor:p :p :p

on the personal maintenance front...and this advice goes out to non techies to...it is good to always clear out the dingleberries at least once a week:eek:
 
Originally posted by locovaca


Well, I'd like to talk to whoever you got your information from because the 16bit PCMCIA is not that slow. Perhaps what they meant to say is that 802.11g only goes that fast, which would be a much more reasonable number considering the nature of wireless communications. Card Bus is used by many things- special, high end 10/100 cards (which our lab uses), Firewire cards, anything that needs a super fast transfer rate uses Cardbus.

I do not know what interface that the 802.11g card uses because, quite frankly, I haven't seen it yet. I do know that the older airport cards were indeed just PCMCIA cards.

They were definitely talking about the limitations of PCMCIA. I guess I'll have to wait and see the tests with 802.11g.
 
Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Bregalad


According to the Motorola roadmap I saw the 7457 will only support a single data rate bus. There was a 7457RM or some such thing mentioned in the late 2003/early 2004 timeframe that would have DDR capabilities, but I think we're all hoping that the PPC 970 will be out before that chip sees the light of day.

To the person who actually priced out upgrades to a PowerMac 8500, I can't help but laugh. Of course the 8500 isn't worth $400, but neither is the B&W.

Remember folks $600 gets a brand new 1.8GHz PC or a used 350MHz G4. Tell me the Mac buyer gets the better deal in that equation and I'll be recommending you spend the rest of your life in a padded room where you can't hurt yourself or anyone else.

A 350MHz G4 is basically nothing more then a B/W G3 with a different color case and a G4 in it. When it came out it was the stepping stone to the real G4s.
 
Re: A Quirky Firewire Tidbit

Originally posted by Anecdoter
Thus, Firewire 400 (it has to be 400 as this audio equipment has been out for a while) is capable of moving 24-bit, high resolution 5.1 audio (in respect to DVD-Audio and multichannel SACD) using one cable and one controller. However, I don't know if this information is compressed by the player or not.

Do the maths - assume 24-bit resolution, 192kHz per channel, and 6 channels in total as the worst case.

That is a total of 27000 kbps, or just over 3 MB/s of bandwidth. Firewire provides 50 MB/s of bandwidth.

Hence the Extigy can drive 5.1 channels at 16-bit / 48kHz over a USB connection without a single problem.

Audio is not bandwidth intensive.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by MacBandit
A 350MHz G4 is basically nothing more then a B/W G3 with a different color case and a G4 in it. When it came out it was the stepping stone to the real G4s.

My point exactly (although there were 350MHz G4's with the Sawtooth AGP motherboard). Why is that piece of "junk" worth as much as a brand new PC? Face it, Mac users have more money than brains.

Oh and for PC longevity, my former employer was stingy when it came to buying new equipment. Last month I was still using a PIII 450 from 2000 as my main computer and most of the Windows NT and Novell test servers around the place were 1998 and 1999 era machines. They've run around the clock with little or no maintenance for more than 4 years. In the past 5 years of owning and using PCs at work I've seen exactly 4 components go bad: 2 cheap cooling fans, one modem card and a CD-ROM that read some discs and not others. All of the above were in "white box" PCs. According to my former IT department there were other failures that I never saw and name brand machines failed just as often as the clones.

And even if a PC dies in 3 years and a Mac lives for 6, the PC only cost half as much and will only cost half as much to replace. For those who think Windows is good enough, that argument alone will keep them away from Apple.

Now I'll quickly note for all you people who think I'm a troll that this message was composed in Safari 0.81 on a PowerMac G4 that I was fortunate enough to get at a clearance sale two years ago.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Nipsy


Most 1999 era PCs do not.

Why not?

Probably because the owner has upgraded the machine because PC hardware is so cheap this isn't an issue?

There are tonnes of people running PCs from 1999 - I would guess that over 50% of the computer market is still running on old 1999 era PCs.

If you have to spend 100-150 minutes per week dealing with:
500 pop up windows
1 critical update
4 BSODs
2 .dll conflicts
5 virus scans
5 spyware checks
10 unnecessary reboots

Well, running IE is a fault of the owner, not the computer. Running an old version of windows is the fault of the owner, not the computer.

Yes, Windows PCs in corporate environments SUCK. As a programmer, I didn't want a 1.5GHz P4 coupled with SDRAM - and that was 13 months ago. Dell and other OEMs like to sell crippled hardware for corporate use. At least the Apple hardware is good quality, especially the laptops which I think are Apple's best hardware product at the moment.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Small changes coming soon

Originally posted by Hattig


Why not?

Probably because the owner has upgraded the machine because PC hardware is so cheap this isn't an issue?

There are tonnes of people running PCs from 1999 - I would guess that over 50% of the computer market is still running on old 1999 era PCs.



Well, running IE is a fault of the owner, not the computer. Running an old version of windows is the fault of the owner, not the computer.

Yes, Windows PCs in corporate environments SUCK. As a programmer, I didn't want a 1.5GHz P4 coupled with SDRAM - and that was 13 months ago. Dell and other OEMs like to sell crippled hardware for corporate use. At least the Apple hardware is good quality, especially the laptops which I think are Apple's best hardware product at the moment.


Going in order:
I would estimate that 90% of 1999 era Macs are still running strong. I would further estimate that 50% of 1999 PCs have experienced a failure, often Windows, but sometimes harware, which has relegated them to disuse.

I'm basing his solely on what I've seen in corporations, and at equipment auctions.

Umm...you don't need to be running IE to get pop ups on Windows. There are some lovely holes which allow you to run a pop-up daemon on the desktop. The trojan in through some seemingly harmless web pages & shareware downloads.

Furthermore, there are some issues with XP. You still need to run AdAware and your virus package daily. It still requires frequent rebooting. It is still updated weekly (which would be great if it were updated BEFORE exploited). It is still easy to break. And it still BSODs alot more than OSX.

In one recent company I worked with (an advertising agency), the split was about 50-50 Mac/PC, with about 200 machines of each flavor. There were 3 overworked full time IT guys for the PCs, one leisurely IT guy for the Macs. Hmmmm....

XP is better than previous versions of Windows, but it is no holy grail.

Coroporate machines are set up the way they are because the run Office, accounting software, etc. perfectly. Phil in business development should NOT be checking his frame rates at work. Developers and artists on Windows should be using workstation class hardware. Again, the brains in accounting rarely know this...
 
Obsolete

My Mac
450 Mhz Grapite iMac
128 mgs of RAM
13 gig drive
DVD Drive and External Lacie CD-RW burner
Mac OS X 10.1.5

My Friends PC
450Mhz Something or other
20 gig drive
256 Meg of RAM
Cd Drive
Windows 98(because XP died then 2000 died then ME died)

Both were purchase 1999ish. There is nothing more pleaseing then to be talking to him on MSN and to see a single f-word apeear and then not hear from him till the next day...I've been running for 2 days 23 hours and there was a lightning storm 3 days ago so I wonder which one of these computers was really the better buy?
 
Re: Obsolete

Originally posted by newworldempire

My Friends PC
450Mhz Something or other
20 gig drive
256 Meg of RAM
Cd Drive
Windows 98(because XP died then 2000 died then ME died)

Both were purchase 1999ish

note that its the 99 era pc above with windows problems

as a pc tech, it is rarely a hardware problem which brings a computer down and a lot of hardware problems are usually traced to a software driver problem or just a problem with windows

but that being said, it doesn't matter if the pc hardware is as good or almost as good as a mac...if the operating system is so problematic

i do fix macs from time to time, but the operating system is so clean that i rarely have to come back...with windows, there is always an issue, and money, waiting for me

i don't fix pcs because i love them;)
 
Of course, the other problem is the huge amount of crap that gets written for windows and it's just that- crap. Bonzi Buddy, Gator, et all. People install this stuff then can't figure out why it takes 30 years to load up Windows and why it crashes unexpectedly. One benefit of having a smaller market share is that this stuff isn't written for macs. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen installed on computers and then they don't work. One guy had 6 alarm programs because he couldn't wake up in the morning to his normal clock. 6 shareware or freeware programs taking up a total of 10 of his 64 megs of ram.
 
Originally posted by locovaca
Of course, the other problem is the huge amount of crap that gets written for windows and it's just that- crap. Bonzi Buddy, Gator, et all. People install this stuff then can't figure out why it takes 30 years to load up Windows and why it crashes unexpectedly. One benefit of having a smaller market share is that this stuff isn't written for macs. You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I've seen installed on computers and then they don't work. One guy had 6 alarm programs because he couldn't wake up in the morning to his normal clock. 6 shareware or freeware programs taking up a total of 10 of his 64 megs of ram.

macs have such good quality control that the mac techs i know are either out of work, work for low wages, are shut down, or scaling back by reducing store front size or number of stores

the mac techs are like the maytag repair men with nothing to do

my mac and my maytag work beautifully, thank you:D
 
Where have all the iMacs gone?

Ah, this might explain why there's no stock of iMacs and all the lower models are on 2 week delivery. Is the line being retooled or the pipeline emptied? Apple Retail stores claim ignorance.
 
Re: Where have all the iMacs gone?

Originally posted by nc_Frodo
Ah, this might explain why there's no stock of iMacs and all the lower models are on 2 week delivery. Is the line being retooled or the pipeline emptied? Apple Retail stores claim ignorance.

Of course they claim ignorance, that's the official company line. Apple's wholesale distributors still had piles of iMacs and eMacs at Christmas. Apple is eager to clear the channel so updated models can be introduced without having to offer deals on the remaining old ones.

Expect to see updated iMacs and (hopefully fixed) eMacs within a month. Updates to the XServe and PowerMac may take another month after that. Apple is waiting for faster processors from Motorola so they can increase the clock speed at the same time they put FireWire 800 on the "Pro" motherboards.
 
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