PowerMacs, iMacs and eMacs

[Anecdoter]

A Quirky Firewire Tidbit

Here's an interesting ray of light to shine on the current capabilities of Firewire 400: Apparently Denon (maker of high-end audio equipment) uses a Firewire connection between its DVD-Audio and SACD players and its receivers. The purpose of this connection (it uses proprietary software to get it to work) is to help the consumer minimize the number of cables between the receiver and the player (Both DVD-Audio and SACD players are mandated to provide only analog [six cables, one per channel] outputs to prevent piracy [as suggested by the paranoid folks at the the RIAA]). Thus, Firewire 400 (it has to be 400 as this audio equipment has been out for a while) is capable of moving 24-bit, high resolution 5.1 audio (in respect to DVD-Audio and multichannel SACD) using one cable and one controller. However, I don't know if this information is compressed by the player or not.
Of course, I've been saving for a year and a half to get a Power Mac, and I'm hoping they get Firewire 800 because I don't plan on retiring it for at least five years - future compatibility is a good thing!
What I don't understand is why Apple provides all the software one needs to transfer a VHS home video to a DVD, but refuses to provide any sort of video inputs on their Power Macs. Some optical audio inputs would be nice as well... perhaps the RIAA and Hollywood strike again.

Ancedoter TM - Confusing people since 1979

 

[eric_n_dfw]

Re: A Quirky Firewire Tidbit

Originally posted by Anecdoter
Here's an interesting ray of light to shine on the current capabilities of Firewire 400: Apparently Denon (maker of high-end audio equipment) uses a Firewire connection between its DVD-Audio and SACD players and its receivers. The purpose of this connection (it uses proprietary software to get it to work) is to help the consumer minimize the number of cables between the receiver and the player (Both DVD-Audio and SACD players are mandated to provide only analog [six cables, one per channel] outputs to prevent piracy [as suggested by the paranoid folks at the the RIAA]). Thus, Firewire 400 (it has to be 400 as this audio equipment has been out for a while) is capable of moving 24-bit, high resolution 5.1 audio (in respect to DVD-Audio and multichannel SACD) using one cable and one controller. However, I don't know if this information is compressed by the player or not.
Of course, I've been saving for a year and a half to get a Power Mac, and I'm hoping they get Firewire 800 because I don't plan on retiring it for at least five years - future compatibility is a good thing!
What I don't understand is why Apple provides all the software one needs to transfer a VHS home video to a DVD, but refuses to provide any sort of video inputs on their Power Macs. Some optical audio inputs would be nice as well... perhaps the RIAA and Hollywood strike again.

Ancedoter TM - Confusing people since 1979

As far as the home theater, Hitatchi and a bunch of other companies have been talking abount using the HAVI (www.havi.org) standard for connecting all of their equipment (maybe Denon is on that list too). That includes HDTV. In fact, some HDTV monitors come with a Firewire input already. It's coming, and I can't wait!

The reason Apple doesn't provide analog inputs on their current hardware is that it's one more piece of hardware that most people don't need. They'd either need to include a capture card or a Firewire/Analog converter. Many digital camcorders now-a-days provide that and there are also stand-alone boxes that do it to. (I have a Sony DVMC-DA1 for that used to use for converting SVHS to Firewire)
Most people who want to do home video editing can afford a $399 MiniDV camcorder or already have one.

 

[LethalWolfe]

Re: FW800

Originally posted by eric_n_dfw
DLD's will probably not be FW800 anytime soon as, like others have pointed out, no single, IDE hard drive today can even come close to saturating FW400.

Does anyone know, however, what kind of bandwidth an uncompressed SD or HD a/v stream would take up though? I wonder if uncompresed, pro-sumer camcorders are on the horizon.

Also, if you put a FW400 device on the FW800 bus, will it slow the bus down to 400mbit or will it just eat just to portion it needs? If so, then FW800 would be great for hanging lots of extra's off of it: MiniDV camcorder/deck, a few FW400 hard drives, FW400 scanner, etc...

The data rate for uncompressed SD I think depends on what format you are looking at (i.e. DigiBeta is probably higher data rate than BetaSP). I think FW800 could handle DigiBeta, but would choke hardcore on full blown HD (of course there are probably going to be compressed versions of HD). I don't see any uncompressed pro-sumer gear on the horizon just 'cause of the added cost of uncompressed (need SCSI, need hardware assistance to get RT abilites, etc.,). The difference between a DV only G4 and an uncompressed G4 is around $10,000 and up.


Lethal

 

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Dave K

Actually, there is DDR-400 for a double pumped 200mhz system bus, but it's limited in it's performance benefits and haggled by compatiblity issues because the exact spec. wasn't final yet last I heard...

I belive the problem is related the the availability of lower latency 333MHz DDR... well, at least partially.

Agreeing on AGP 8.0. Nothing currently really taxes the 4.0 Bus,

Well, AGP isn't actuall a BUS. It is technically a port... the distinction is directly related to why you can't have 2 AGP slots on a system.

skip 8.0 altogether and just move straight to PCI-Express which would play much nicer with the 900 Mhz system bus of the 970 and offers twice the bandwidth of AGP8...

I'm not sure about the PCI-Express stats but I'd be very surprised to hear it has twice the bandwidth of AGP 8x. AGP 8x is 533MHz at 64bits. It also had direct access to system memory without throwing a processor interrupt.
PCI-Express will be a BUS, with other devices sharing the bandwith. Even integrated devices like audio will have to share the PCI bus.

No one will come out and say it, but AGP as a spec is likely on it's last legs as PCI-Express makes it redundant and system manufactuers like to remove redundancies to save on costs...

I can't agree here. PCI, even PCI-Express has it's place. That place, IMHO doesn't include video anymore. AGP has done it's job well and I think it will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

... I looked up the PCI-Express spec and the figures are 2.5GB/sec... but there will be 2GB/sec of useable bandwidth due to overhead.
8x AGP will have 4.26 GB/sec bandwidth by my calculations.

 

[finchna]

Re: Re: G4 7457

Originally posted by Over Achiever

Well here's the Apple System Profiler for the 17" taken from MWSF...if you can understand it, cool.

Is this a stock PB17? If so, it has 512MB of RAM on a single chip so there's no more of the wasted RAM if you buy a 512MB machine (TiBook) and want to increase it. Nice that Apple finally did this--wish it was the same with the PB12.

Nathan

 

[ffakr]

Originally posted by pilotgi
I would be very surprised if Moto delivers a processor to Apple at 0.13 micron and a 200Mhz or faster bus speed.

If they do find a way to get the current G4 to 1430Mhz, with a 167Mhz bus speed, there won't be much of a performance increase.

Even at 1Ghz, a PPC970 with a 900Mhz bus would be faster.

Moto will deliver that part eventually. There are two reasons why you can bank on that.
First, Moto has the part in development with a good deal of R&D already invested. It has been on the road map for quite some time already and Moto has already said the product was in the pipe.
Second, DDR support would be beneficial to the embedded market, especially in Network Routers. Moto would finish the chip up if only for their embedded market.

You'll see a 7457 soon. It will be cooler, lower power, faster per clock, and clocked faster. The real world performance of a Macintosh will increase significantly when a dual 1.4 GHz 7457 based machine is released, especially with the 512K L2 cache on each G4.

I think the next 'big thing' for the Mac world will be 64bit pro machines and 32bit consumer machines. Next year, we'll have 2+ GHz 970s in the towers, and maybe the Powerbooks and we'll have up to 2GHz G4s in the consumer machines.

....ffakr.

 

[Shrek]

Originally posted by ffakr

I think the next 'big thing' for the Mac world will be 64bit pro machines and 32bit consumer machines. Next year, we'll have 2+ GHz 970s in the towers, and maybe the Powerbooks and we'll have up to 2GHz G4s in the consumer machines.

No, I think Apple is going to completely ditch Motorola and rely completely on the higher-performing IBM Power 970 processor. Trust me; it would be the best thing for Apple to finally ditch Motorola because it's Moto's fault that Apple is behind in the processor and bus speeds. Motorola is the one that cut it's R&D, not Apple.

 

[Dave K]

Originally posted by ffakr
I'm not sure about the PCI-Express stats but I'd be very surprised to hear it has twice the bandwidth of AGP 8x.

http://www.pcisig.com/data/specifications/PCIExpress10FAQ.pdf

"PCI Express is designed for use as a graphics I/O attach point. The initial graphics definition for PCI Express provides double the bandwidth of AGP8X."

And, just to be fair they go on to add: "but we can't predict which product will win"...

... I looked up the PCI-Express spec and the figures are 2.5GB/sec... but there will be 2GB/sec of useable bandwidth due to overhead.
8x AGP will have 4.26 GB/sec bandwidth by my calculations.

http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pciexpress

"PCI Express currently runs at 2.5Gtps, or 250MBps per lane in each direction, providing a total bandwidth of 16GBps in a 32-lane configuration. "

According to my copy of Maximum PC, standard PC's will be using 1 lanes for stock peripherals, and the initial graphic cards will be allocated 16 allowing for a dedicated 8 Gbps, justifying the "double AGP" above...

And the real scary news for AGP? PCI-Express is designed to scale to 10 Gbps per lane...

The honest truth is that AGP was the best kludge they could come up with at the time to deal with the fact that the PCI bus quite simply couldn't do the job for graphics cards anymore, and PCI-Express is a much more multipurpose solution that does the job better and will be far easier to scale...

 

[pyrotoaster]

Think cost...

Originally posted by Shrek

No, I think Apple is going to completely ditch Motorola and rely completely on the higher-performing IBM Power 970 processor. Trust me; it would be the best thing for Apple to finally ditch Motorola because it's Moto's fault that Apple is behind in the processor and bus speeds. Motorola is the one that cut it's R&D, not Apple.

Unless IBM can produce the 970, not just in volume, but inexpensivly, we won't see Apple replacing all Motorola processors at once.

Think of the cost problems! Why do you think the iBook still has the G3 in it? Apple will probably phase in the 970, starting with Powermacs and then Powerbooks. The iMac and the eMac are both too new for a revision as major as a new, 64-bit processor.

 

[Shrek]

Re: Think cost...

Originally posted by pyrotoaster


Unless IBM can produce the 970, not just in volume, but inexpensivly, we won't see Apple replacing all Motorola processors at once.

Think of the cost problems! Why do you think the iBook still has the G3 in it? Apple will probably phase in the 970, starting with Powermacs and then Powerbooks. The iMac and the eMac are both too new for a revision as major as a new, 64-bit processor.

Keep in mind that the PM is dual processor (that's expensive) and that the PB is a notebook computer (that's expensive too). But a single processor in a desktop machine? Cheap. I can see the iBook moving to a high-performance G4 within the year.

 

[yosoyjay]

Originally posted by Centris 650



Ahhh...welcome to the real world! Just kidding! The only mac I've ever owned that seemed to last forever was my Centris 650. It last 5 years before I had the need to upgrade. My PB150, iMac revA and ibook SE have all had short life spans. (2-3.5 years)
The one thing that makes my machines old so fast is either 1) the OS or 2) games. I can live without the 2nd but the first...? I like having an up to date OS.

Having a computer last 2-3.5 years is pretty damn good in my book. I have a 366 Celeron that I still use for Kazaa/file storage/Civ3 purposes and it is the longest I've ever had/kept a computer, a whopping 4 years. To me that is nearly incomprehesnisble, but it also suggests that people don't really need new stuff. I also have a 500 iBook that is absolutely wonderful but it never really felt quick until about last August.

Anyway, I sense the need to buy a new tower when/if the 970 stuff comes out with integrated Bluetooth, FW800, SuperdriveX2, Airport X and at least a 160GB harddrive.

 

[Malus120]

For me to even consider the curent PM's they would need to have(on the low end $1699 model):
A TRUE DDR Bus at 266 or abouve
Dual G4 1.25+
OR
Single 1.4+
FW 800


Things that after the forementioned were availible would really help seal the del:
SuperDrive
8X AGP
400Mhz+ DDR bus
Even Faster Procs
Better Video card Standard(such as Geforce 4TI 4200 or Radeon 9500PRO)

However it this point it looks like i will be buying a G3 800 Upgrade from PowerLogix for my blue and white as well as a larger HD and Video card. With this i will probably just hold out til PPC 970 comes(can you say APPLE'S SAVIOR!)

 

[pyrotoaster]

I still don't think 970s across the board is feasible.

Here's how I see it playing out:

First, G4 iBooks (this year)
Then, Powermac 970s (within a year)
3. Powerbook 970s (around the same time as the Powermac, maybe a few months later)
4. iMac 970 (around a year later)
5. eMac 970 (a bit after the iMac)
6. iBook 970 (After the iMac, depends on cost...)

That's just what I think Apple would do, although I'd love to see 970s in all the machines at once (as long as the prices don't sky rocket!), but I see a staggered release as the more likely option.

 

[Shrek]

I have the freedom to be a dreamer and a promoter anyway. Who cares about costs? I want features!

 

[pyrotoaster]

I respect your optimism, it's too bad I have to be a real-world pessimist...

 

[Shrek]

lol

 

[ffakr]

Originally posted by Dave K
"PCI Express currently runs at 2.5Gtps, or 250MBps per lane in each direction, providing a total bandwidth of 16GBps in a 32-lane configuration. "

According to my copy of Maximum PC, standard PC's will be using 1 lanes for stock peripherals, and the initial graphic cards will be allocated 16 allowing for a dedicated 8 Gbps, justifying the "double AGP" above...

The spec is designed to scale. it's likely that desktop machines would not support a very large number of channels as I'm sure cost would be prohibitive (even though the spec is touted as cheaper than PCI). Be careful with your letters also... 8Gb is Giga-Bits, not Giga-Bytes... that would be GB. AGP 8x is much faster than 8Gb/sec.

And the real scary news for AGP? PCI-Express is designed to scale to 10 Gbps per lane...

The PCI standards group is far more conservative. They only state in their FAQ that it could scale faster.

The honest truth is that AGP was the best kludge they could come up with at the time to deal with the fact that the PCI bus quite simply couldn't do the job for graphics cards anymore, and PCI-Express is a much more multipurpose solution that does the job better and will be far easier to scale...

Actually, it could be argued that AGP was forward thinking. At the release of AGP 1X, PCI66 and 64bit PCI (both available in the Blue and White G3) had the same bandwith. AGP not only scaled past PCI, it also brought features that were uniquely designed for video.

The reality of PCI Express is that sample silicon won't be available until the second half of 2003. It will need to go through a development cycle, and then it will need to gain market acceptance. Unlike AGP, it can't (as far as I can tell) be shipped alongside PCI in a system. At the very least this would defeat the cost advantage.
PCI Express not only requires vendors to design entirely new peripherals, it also requires end users to abandon existing hardware. It will also require the basic redesign of the familiar slot laden computer case (no real need for slots after all). Right now, the design group doesn't even know how the devices will be physically designed.

I'm sure that PCI Express or a similar technology will reign. It won't happen soon though. They not only have to finish the technology, but they have to over come existing market forces AND they have to play 'chicken or the egg' with peripheral vendors. No one will buy PCI Express motherboards if there aren't devices for it.
To give you an idea about when this will actually be available, the web site you mentioned states (over and over) that PCI Express was designed to support [among other things] 10GHz CPUs.

I expect that there will be PCI Express Server products in 2004. I figure the technology will filter down into the personal computer market in late 2004 to early 2005.

...just my humble opinion, Ffakr.

 

[dguisinger]

You guys are complaining too much when it comes to Apple's 12" notebook. Apple's notebooks are their most competitive lines.

Take a Dell Latitude X200, Dell's smallest and lightest laptop.

800MHz
12.1 XGA TFT
256MB Ram
EXTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
30GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
Windows XP
11Mbps WiFi Ready (adapter not included in price)
2.8 Lbs ** EXCLUDES CDROM WEIGHT
(Battery Life Unknown)
$2126.00


Apple PowerBook

867MHz
12.1 XGA
256MB RAM
INTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
40GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
FireWire 400
Bluetooth
54Mbps Airport Extreme Ready (adapter not included in price)
4.6Lbs
5 Hours of Battery Life

$1799.00


The Apple 12" PowerBook makes better sense than the Dell 12" Latitude....which Dell advertises as their smallest notebook.

 

[dguisinger]

Actually the PCI Express, if i remember correctly which is the PCI 3.0 spec and Intel's 3GIO bus technology (Am I right, am i thinking of the right specs?).......it has backwards compatability, it is designed to be bridged to put normal slots next to it, infact both signals can go to a single slot.....PCI 2.1 and PCI Express. They add a small extension to the end of the current slots so boards can be used in both PCI 2.1 and Express systems.

 

[beud]

Originally posted by dguisinger
You guys are complaining too much when it comes to Apple's 12" notebook. Apple's notebooks are their most competitive lines.

Take a Dell Latitude X200, Dell's smallest and lightest laptop.

Everybody knows dell laptop is junk. Apple should try to compete with the best, aka Toshiba.Check out the 2010 portege instead.

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by beud


Everybody knows dell laptop is junk. Apple should try to compete with the best, aka Toshiba.Check out the 2010 portege instead.

Forget the Toshiba, the Toshiba is not in the same class as the PB since it doesn't have a built-in optical drive, so it cannot be considered a "full-featured" laptop.

If you want to see the PB 12's REAL competition, check out the Fujitsu P2000, which at 3.4 lbs with internal combo drive is definitely the "lightest full-featured laptop", though Apple can still claim the "smallest full-featured laptop", since the Fujitsu is 1.59" thick versus the PB12's 1.18". The Fujitsu competes quite well on price, too, starting at $1499.

Here's the link:

http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2

 

[Abstract]

Yes, and the newer models are coming out with 2 batteries, providing a 8-9 hour battery life. I have used a fairly new Fugitsu laptop, and it's fast and reliable, and has a 4.5 hour real world battery life. They're probably the best laptop makers on the planet, no offense to Apple or anything. Apple is a very close 2nd, but with things like battery life and portability, Fugitsu owns all. And yes, I realize that they don't come with Firewire, but that isn't an extremely important issue in the PC, is it. If it were, Fugitsu would have it in their laptops.

I still love iBooks best, though.

 

[beud]

Originally posted by Abstract
And yes, I realize that they don't come with Firewire, but that isn't an extremely important issue in the PC, is it. If it were, Fugitsu would have it in their laptops.

Well Fujtsu aleardy put 1394 and usb 2.0 in it. There is even a spdif out for high quality audio output.

http://www.fujitsu-pc-asia.com/products/lb_p2120.html

I wouldn't dare to mention they managed to fit a PCMCIA port in the package

 

[wallinbl]

Originally posted by dguisinger
You guys are complaining too much when it comes to Apple's 12" notebook. Apple's notebooks are their most competitive lines.

Apple PowerBook

867MHz
12.1 XGA
256MB RAM
INTERNAL CDRW/DVD drive
40GB Hard Drive
10/100 Ethernet
56K Modem
FireWire 400
Bluetooth
54Mbps Airport Extreme Ready (adapter not included in price)
4.6Lbs
5 Hours of Battery Life

$1799.00


The Apple 12" PowerBook makes better sense than the Dell 12" Latitude....which Dell advertises as their smallest notebook.

Let's do this fairly and compare it to the right Dell. The Latitude C400:

1.2 GHz
12.1 XGA
256MB RAM
INTERNAL DVD/CDRW
30GB Hard Drive
56K Modem
11/54 Mbps Wireless ready (adapter not included)
3.6Lbs
3 Year Warranty (PowerBook has 1 Year)

$1798

So, it's basically the same deal. With the Dell, you'd have to get a Bluetooth adapter and a Firewire adapter. With the Apple, you'd have to buy AppleCare. Argue battery life all you want. Mine lasts as long as I have ever needed it to.

Don't be fooled - Apple is not the only company that does 54Mbps 802.11g. On Monday, I will receive shipment of my 802.11g cards and access point at work. A PC doesn't have to be "ready" for it. Any PCMCIA card will work in it.

Don't be confused - I'm not trying to be a Mac basher. If I had the money, I'd buy one. I'm just trying to clarify this comparison.

 

[lmalave]

Originally posted by Abstract
Yes, and the newer models are coming out with 2 batteries, providing a 8-9 hour battery life. I have used a fairly new Fugitsu laptop, and it's fast and reliable, and has a 4.5 hour real world battery life. They're probably the best laptop makers on the planet, no offense to Apple or anything. Apple is a very close 2nd, but with things like battery life and portability, Fugitsu owns all. And yes, I realize that they don't come with Firewire, but that isn't an extremely important issue in the PC, is it. If it were, Fugitsu would have it in their laptops.

I still love iBooks best, though.

Yeah, man, iBooks still rock!! At $999 to $1299 the iBooks are still the best value in the market right now, IMHO. And I love how rugged they are - never think twice about tossing it in my backpack. And of course the Fujitsus don't run OS X

Correction: If you follow the product link I posted you'll see that the Fujistu P2000 actually has a FireWire port.