Privacy Whistleblower Edward Snowden and EFF Slam Apple's Plans to Scan Messages and iCloud Images

[IIGS User]

The false positive rate is not the probability that Apple will report you for an innocent photo.

How many paedophiles are stupid enough to want to backup their collection to the cloud? Versus how many people would think it funny to mess with someone by adding flagged images to their library?

This could start a new era of digital swatting.

Maybe I’m overestimating the intelligence of paedophiles but if they’re successful enough to buy Apple products and subscribe to iCloud it seems like they’d know enough to turn off auto upload.

On one hand, you would be really surprised at how sloppy kid touchers and consumers of this flotsam are at times. Sometimes it amazes me when I see investigative reports that reflect criminals who deal in this stuff getting pinched on file sharing sites thinking no one will catch them because they're doing it from a game console. Using limewire for crying out loud.

On the other hand, some of them are very intelligent, successful, and most importantly manipulative and conniving. They can play the long game and understand how to "work the system". A lot of them have extensive tech prowess and are anything but stupid.

The majority of them DON'T get caught. Ever. The ones that do are usually pretty bad at it, like any other criminal.

Underestimating sex offenders and pedophiles invites manipulation and obfuscation. Some are them are clearly and openly not packing a lot of intelligence, but the majority are pretty smart.

I've dealt with a lot of them as part of my job for almost a quarter century now. It leaves mental and emotional scars.

When someone tells you what as been seen can not be unseen, that's no BS. 😢

 

[wyarp]

Yep! It is so symbolic of the mental illness that is modern American sensibilities.

Sharing false information about diseases on social media or downloading files so you can 3D print a gun? All good!

Looking at pictures of Michelangelo’s David one of the greatest works of art ever created? ALERT ALERT ALERT!

I think you seem to (intentionally) miss the point here. I'm not sure the statue of David would be on the list of known child porn images to reference against.

 

[LiE_]

Apple could be forced to do it, and this now proves it is practically and technically possible.

It's always been possible.

 

[macpanzer]

Or if you have a Mac, just don't upload them to iCloud and it becomes a moot point and you can continue to store all your photos and videos on your phone and back them up to Photos on your Mac instead of iCloud.

I think you have missed something - what Apple is planning, is to start scanning on your device - on your phone, iPad, Mac. They even pointed that out as a privacy aspect of it - the database of definitions of "bad stuff" is delivered to your device and scanning happens on your device so nothing is sent out for scanning.

Today they say "bad stuff" is CP images. There is nothing stopping that tomorrow it includes selfies with Donald (not the duck) ... and so on.

 

[Shirasaki]

No, that photo would not be flagged because it's not a "known" child abuse image. Same thing goes for your 2nd situation with the video.

What will stop that very photo become “the known child abuse image”? You do know the database is under constant update right?

They said there's a certain number that have to be both flagged AND uploaded to iCloud before they review them.

What number? 2? 20? 200? 2000? No word in that slide. Just “certain”. Also, even if Apple gave that number now, they could adjust it in the future without publishing it. So 2000 could become 30 or 1. Nobody outside of Apple knows.

I think people really haven't bothered to read much around this. Just the headline, then cracked their knuckles and went full tinfoil hat keyboard warrior.

This image is on the main page of Mac rumours.

I suggest you take a free beginner course for Neural Network and Machine Learning before throwing this image over and over. Here is a very good one.

 

[ColdShadow]

You sound a bit out there. Snowden is an enemy of the government because he is a traitor. Any government in human history would feel the same way. Russia is harboring him to act like they’re better than us, not because they agree with him. If he did to them what he did to the US then he’d simply be poisoned to death.

But no, he’s not going to be written out of history. You need to wake up and get a grip.

Shut up man,I couldn’t care less about Snowden.as a person he is 100% right.
This simplyis the start of surveillance on your private data.
if you want to be an exposed,obedient sheep,that’s your choice.

 

[hasanahmad]

I think you have missed something - what Apple is planning, is to start scanning on your device - on your phone, iPad, Mac. They even pointed that out as a privacy aspect of it - the database of "bad" is delivered to your device and scanning happens on your device so nothing is sent out for scanning.

Wrong . The photos lose their encryption when iCloud is enabled. They don’t open a back door and scan your photos. YOU as a user remove the encryption from those photos when you choose iCloud photos. Why is this so hard to understand ??

 

[Somian]

Shipping a closed-source OS to customers that contains spyware that can send stuff to Apple/government against your will is not acceptable. No matter the cause, no matter that it will first be automatically processed. No matter how unlikely hash collisions may be. No matter that they say, for now, that this is only against child abuse.

It always starts like this.

Apple's solution is, admittedly a very smart one with a lot of safety nets. But In the end it doesn't change the fact that they scan for undesired content on the user device.

 

[Apple2GS]

Apple is creating a process to scan all private files on your iPhone looking for whatever the bot is told to look for.

It takes no skill to change all documents so that the hash will not match a list of known hashes. Will Apple then use the iPhone's AI chip to scan the contents of the document?

What scans will they run before the next pandemic or election?

 

[LeadingHeat]

You know, I have to say I agree with these slippery slope arguments. This “technology” (code?) can definitely be used/tweaked in the future to scan for other items. (Guns, anti-government speak, etc).

The thing is, anyone who is even remotely involved in child exploitation deserves a special place in hell in my opinion. What’s bad about this, is now if they back off the privacy crowd will cheer but the predators will come flooding in in droves to iOS as a safe haven. (I’m sure many already are with the privacy features of iOS/iPhone..) damned if they do, damned if they don’t sort of thing now. 😕

 

[DanTSX]

I think people really haven't bothered to read much around this. Just the headline, then cracked their knuckles and went full tinfoil hat keyboard warrior.

BbbbnnnnBut but but but the arrival said…..

I’ve been lied to enough times by big tech over this type of stuff over the years to reasonably assume that there is a bit more going on than initially disclosed where the threat to privacy is cleverly omitted until pressed under congressional testimony.

The article is likely accurate, but some other surveillance sillyness is likely occurring. Stay tuned for 3-5 years and we can see which of the two of us get to eat the crow….

 

[wyarp]

I don't follow this slippery slope thought process. He is essentially saying he doesn't trust Apple not to abuse this functionality. You could literally apply this to anything if you believe Apple has ill-intentions.

If we believe Apple has some master plan to abuse this then this opens open every part of their ecosystem to the same "it could be abused if they want to" statement.

EXACTLY!

This has ZERO relation to what corrupt governments or those with dubious human-rights/censorship tendencies (such as China) may WANT to do. This is something APPLE (who as far as I am aware, for all it's fault are trying to do something genuinely GOOD here with good intentions) are instigating for their own systems. They wouldn't even unlock phones for the FBI for peat sake so they're not going to just open up their systems for China (or other nefarious governments) to do 'evil' things. People in the USA in particular it seems appear in a perpetual state of fear and mistrust. It's what help Trump rise to power and continue to hold sway with millions of delusional followers.

 

[DanTSX]

Please delete your macrumors account too. Ty

That is unreasonable. Why silence a voice?

btw im keeping my Apple stock. Dividends are nice

 

[hasanahmad]

Apple is creating a process to scan all private files on your iPhone looking for whatever the bot is told to look for.

It takes no skill to change all documents so that the hash will not match a list of known hashes. Will Apple then use the iPhone's AI chip to scan the contents of the document?

What scans will they run before the next pandemic or election?

Wrong again. Your photos lose encryption when you enable iCloud photos . It’s how it’s always been. How is this hard to understand ?

 

[usagora]

I think you have missed something - what Apple is planning, is to start scanning on your device - on your phone, iPad, Mac. They even pointed that out as a privacy aspect of it - the database of definitions of "bad stuff" is delivered to your device and scanning happens on your device so nothing is sent out for scanning.

No, it's you who have missed something. I understand that the scanning and flagging is happening on the device itself, but Apple doesn't know about that unless you then upload those images to their iCloud servers. If you don't upload anything to iCloud, then nothing happens with the flagged images. Their only concern is you uploading these illegal images to their servers.

 

[Bonte]

Google awaits your photos for full scanning

On device, before uploading?

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The tool designed to detected known images of child sexual abuse, called “neuralMatch,” will scan images before they are uploaded to iCloud. If it finds a match, the image will be reviewed by a human. If child pornography is confirmed, the user’s account will be disabled and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children notified.

Separately, Apple plans to scan users' encrypted messages for sexually explicit content as a child safety measure, which also alarmed privacy advocates.

 

[hasanahmad]

On device, before uploading?

----
The tool designed to detected known images of child sexual abuse, called “neuralMatch,” will scan images before they are uploaded to iCloud. If it finds a match, the image will be reviewed by a human. If child pornography is confirmed, the user’s account will be disabled and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children notified.

Separately, Apple plans to scan users' encrypted messages for sexually explicit content as a child safety measure, which also alarmed privacy advocates.

Wrong again. Once your device has iCloud enabled your photos lose their encryption. The scan occurs the moment the upload is about to begin because at that point the encryption is gone for the photos. It’s not that hard to understand

 

[Apple2GS]

Wrong again. Your photos lose encryption when you enable iCloud photos . It’s how it’s always been. How is this hard to understand ?

Wrong again? Are you stalking me? I'm going to ask Tim Cook to scan your life and find out who else you are stalking.

You are clearly not understanding the big picture. The good news is that you are in the minority here.

 

[hasanahmad]

Wrong again? Are you stalking me? I'm going to ask Tim Cook to scan your life and find out who else you are stalking.

I’m just correcting the dumb assumption posts

 

[usagora]

What will stop that very photo become “the known child abuse image”? You do know the database is under constant update right?

Sure, if it starts getting passed around and distributed online, it will eventually be added to the database. But it won't be there initially. But why would we object for minors getting in trouble for sending nudes? That's illegal. They OUGHT to get in trouble for it if they're stupid enough to 1. manufacture and distribute child porn and 2. upload it to iCloud.

What number? 2? 20? 200? 2000? No word in that slide. Just “certain”. Also, even if Apple gave that number now, they could adjust it in the future without publishing it. So 2000 could become 30 or 1. Nobody outside of Apple knows.

Sure, we don't know. And? The stated chance of even ONE false positive is less than 1 in a trillion. You're talking about at least TWO of those (and I'm almost positive the threshold is more than just two). In other words, it's a non-issue.

 

[Rigby]

Apple is creating a process to scan all private files on your iPhone looking for whatever the bot is told to look for.

It takes no skill to change all documents so that the hash will not match a list of known hashes. Will Apple then use the iPhone's AI chip to scan the contents of the document?

They already do this. They use a perceptual hash that is based on features of the image, not a traditional file hash.

 

[giggles]

So if i want to cause troubles to someone is enough to make an apple account with its infos and fill icloud with child porn. easier and cheaper than sending drugs from deepnet to someone's home...

Camera roll swatting.
Also, a malicious app that asked you access to the camera roll could do this too, I think.
Even if we assume that in the end all is explained, you would still lose access to your iCloud account for days/weeks/months. This could also be weaponized against dissidents, journalists, etc.

iCloud Photo Library is dead to me and my close relatives, I guess.
The surface area for disaster scenarios (again, losing our iCloud accounts) is too big.
We put our whole lives on these iCloud accounts and on these iPhones.

On the other hand, people should at least concede that this is not scanning what’s on your device, but pre-scanning (on your device, ok, but would people prefer this to happen in the cloud on unencrypted pics?) what you want to upload to Apple servers. The difference is subtle, but there’s a difference. It’s a blind bouncer guarding the gates of iCloud, he will smell your pics only if you want to get in the club. Given the circumstances, this is the most privacy-respecting way to do this.

Also, I hope the threshold is 100 CSAM pics or a big number anyway. If Apple made this clearer, I would be less concerned about the “swatting” risk. (although a malicious app probably could pump hundreds of CSAM pics in your camera roll)

Back to using iCloud Backup instead of iCloud Photo Library (or whatever it’s called nowadays)..

 

[J___o___h___n]

I don’t like this. Apple is meant to be about Privacy. Scanning my photos and my children’s messages is not private.

This should be and opt-in choice, not a forced change

 

[hasanahmad]

Wrong again? Are you stalking me? I'm going to ask Tim Cook to scan your life and find out who else you are stalking.

You are clearly not understanding the big picture. The good news is that you are in the minority here.

What exactly is the big picture. NOTHING mechanics wise is changing . iCloud photos were unencrypted before and after this
Apple scanned your iCloud data before uploading and after uploaded before and after this
Apple shared iCloud data before and after this with police

tell me . Apart from the functionality to scan for child porn on unencrypted data. What has changed that will give foreign government ideas they already had

Give me one example . Just one .

 

[Shirasaki]

Sure, if it starts getting passed around and distributed online, it will eventually be added to the database. But it won't be there initially. But why would we object for minors getting in trouble for sending nudes? That's illegal. They OUGHT to get in trouble for it if they're stupid enough to 1. manufacture and distribute child porn and 2. upload it to iCloud.



Sure, we don't know. And? The stated chance of even ONE false positive is less than 1 in a trillion. You're talking about at least TWO of those (and I'm almost positive the threshold is more than just two). In other words, it's a non-issue.

Do you have any idea how the database is being updated? How often it would be? What would stop law enforcement to add those photos immediately after the case? Sure, If those individuals are stupid enough, they deserve to get caught. Still doesn’t invalidate the huge potential of overreach.

As for second point, I would not believe 1 in trillion is the real number. It got to be much smaller. Also, what trillion they are referring to? Photos? User? Either way, it’s vague and unclear how it is being designed and leaves plenty of room for close door manipulation.

What you’d better realise is this will be an ongoing issue forward, and situation will change and evolve, rather than standing still. What might not happen NOW might happen LATER.