Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
In summary, I just can see any government telling any company how to run its business model.

not sure if this is a US thing, but in a lot of markets around the world, Enterprise/business doesn't run government and Government is there to protect the people and consumers.

many countries often have laws / regulations in place to ensure that businesses can't take unfair advantage over their customers.

(not stating that this is the case here, just repsnding to the one line i quoted).

So yes, in many nations, it's expected that a Government can decide to dictate business models to corporations.

For Example: In Canada, the CRTC just ruled that cell phone providers are no longer legally allowed to lock phones. And fi they do lock phones, they must unlock them for free. So this is very much a situation where a government stepped in and made private enterprises change business model.

believe it or not, the rest of the world generally doesn't have the same mindset of the US where capitalism should be unrestricted and is the purest bestest thing in the world.
 
  • Like
Reactions: kdarling
I’ve noticed over the past


As an IT manager, this would be a complete nightmare. The last thing I want is for people to bring their iOS devices to me and bitch about poor performance or worse a compromised device. Apple would never make such a compromise.

Apple is slowly opening up their ecosystem in a way that makes sense to Apple. The next step would be to allow users to assign default apps in iOS. If a user really needs to download a program outside of the App Store, they should learn how to sideload apps.
As an IT manager it's your job to fix and or advise k maintain isn't it ?
 
not sure if this is a US thing, but in a lot of markets around the world, Enterprise/business doesn't run government and Government is there to protect the people and consumers.

many countries often have laws / regulations in place to ensure that businesses can't take unfair advantage over their customers.

(not stating that this is the case here, just repsnding to the one line i quoted).

So yes, in many nations, it's expected that a Government can decide to dictate business models to corporations.

For Example: In Canada, the CRTC just ruled that cell phone providers are no longer legally allowed to lock phones. And fi they do lock phones, they must unlock them for free. So this is very much a situation where a government stepped in and made private enterprises change business model.

believe it or not, the rest of the world generally doesn't have the same mindset of the US where capitalism should be unrestricted and is the purest bestest thing in the world.

I am actually from Europe and yes they try to protect the consumer from being taken advantage of.
Locking a phone which a consumer paid for fully would be such a thing in Europe as well as in Canada.

Making sure cables and plugs can connect via adapters if necessary, extending warranties to a countries overall laws etc.

I just can't see that because Apple provides an iOS it would be possible to force them to accept responsibility for side loaded apps, without being able to check whether the apps /developer plays by the iOS rules, which make the devices safe.
 
believe it or not, the rest of the world generally doesn't have the same mindset of the US where capitalism should be unrestricted and is the purest bestest thing in the world.

I agree with your whole post except this part. Anti corporation is very big in the us......except when it comes to apple. Huge double standard. Bells busted, microsoft sued. Anti trust laws get used except for when it comes to apple. The same people worshiping apple are mostly against any other corporations.
 
I agree with your whole post except this part. Anti corporation is very big in the us......except when it comes to apple. Huge double standard. Bells busted, microsoft sued. Anti trust laws get used except for when it comes to apple. The same people worshiping apple are mostly against any other corporations.

Sorry, Hard for me to know what the current sentiment is in the US (i'm not in it), and right now the media reporting out of the US is a *********, no matter what side is publishing anything.
[doublepost=1498594192][/doublepost]
I am actually from Europe and yes they try to protect the consumer from being taken advantage of.
Locking a phone which a consumer paid for fully would be such a thing in Europe as well as in Canada.

Making sure cables and plugs can connect via adapters if necessary, extending warranties to a countries overall laws etc.

I just can't see that because Apple provides an iOS it would be possible to force them to accept responsibility for side loaded apps, without being able to check whether the apps /developer plays by the iOS rules, which make the devices safe.

I agree. I think Apple should make the option available, But I do not believe Apple shuold be responsible for any harm that someone brings to their own devices should they do it.

Make it obscure and hard to discover, but available for people who really want to.
[doublepost=1498594341][/doublepost]
I’ve noticed over the past


As an IT manager, this would be a complete nightmare. The last thing I want is for people to bring their iOS devices to me and bitch about poor performance or worse a compromised device. Apple would never make such a compromise.

Apple is slowly opening up their ecosystem in a way that makes sense to Apple. The next step would be to allow users to assign default apps in iOS. If a user really needs to download a program outside of the App Store, they should learn how to sideload apps.

as a Fellow working in IT who has his own teams and overseas infrastructure and architecture, this is a moot point as we are able to fully, succesfully and easily support all forms of devices from iOS, android, Blackberry, etc without such issues, even with Anrdoid users who sideload. it's just not as big a deal as you make it out to be. Especially if you've got the right tools in place to support all those additional devices.

I wouldn't let users who are using company devices do it, But I wouldn't stop users on their own personal devices.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeforeTheMeds
I wish I knew how many people actually need to step outside the App Store and for what reason.
Most apps certainly do not have killer prices, compared to desktop apps.
I don't see many high price apps with trial periods/money back guarantee. Also, I de-test in app purchases.

Other than that I get everything done and with an iOS file system coming and hopefully customizing which stock apps to leave on my iPhone I really fail to see the problem.

1st price for most annoying = Game Center
 
Sorry, Hard for me to know what the current sentiment is in the US (i'm not in it), and right now the media reporting out of the US is a *********, no matter what side is publishing anything.
.

Nothing to be sorry about. I'm not in the US either, In mexico though so not that far away. :) The US is far and away harder on corps than here.

I agree with your whole post. People are trying to create problems where there would be none.

For those spewing "its apples product, they can do what they want" take a look. Google was just hit with a fine for their search engine. Now say "Its google's search engine, they can do what they want". Anti trust laws say that doesn't mean anything.

https://m.androidcentral.com/eu-hits-google-27-billion-fine-abusing-its-market-dominance-search

A Bloomberg report from yesterday suggested Google could be hit with a record fine by the European Union's antitrust regulator over the company's alleged manipulation of search results. The regulator has now announced that it is levying a $2.7 billion fine on Google for abusing its dominance as a search engine by giving an "illegal advantage" to its own comparison shopping service.


Now change google to apple.

"The regulator has now announced that it is levying a $2.7 billion fine on apple for abusing its dominance over ios devices by giving "illegal advantage" to its own app store". See how that works, there is a whole world out there.
 
Last edited:
I wish I knew how many people actually need to step outside the App Store and for what reason.
Most apps certainly do not have killer prices, compared to desktop apps.
I don't see many high price apps with trial periods/money back guarantee. Also, I de-test in app purchases.

Other than that I get everything done and with an iOS file system coming and hopefully customizing which stock apps to leave on my iPhone I really fail to see the problem.

1st price for most annoying = Game Center

I think the request and complaint that is driving this is more coming from the developer side of the fence.

With Apple controlling the rules by which you can have your software on the App store, Apple can deny entry onto their platform for whatever reason Apple decides (whether legit or morally valid or not). In Addition Apple takes 30% cut of all App purchases and in-App purchases.

if you're a small time developer, this can be daunting. You can spend a lot of time and money developing a program that you believe to be the best thing ever, only to find out that Apple has decided you're not allowed having that in the App store. Examples being that Apple has policy that you cannot release through the App store an App that reproduces functionality that Apple gives you in their stock Apps (with some exceptions such as music and maps).

As for the 30% off the top that Apple takes, can cause developers from being hesitant to the platform as well, especially if their creating a low margin App that relies on volume of sales in a highly competitive market. If there are 2 companies selling a similar 0.99c application, a larger, already established company is going to be able to eat that cost far 30c cost far greater than a smaller independent developer.

These are just some of the reasons I can see Developers wishing for Apple to remove their App store restriction. (Please don't take this as me agreeing / disagreeing with the premise, this is just me putting on different hats to come up with potential reasons for this). IMHO, if Apple's App store doesn't provide the financial motiviation or incentives, like any other market, they should then move on to other platforms.

My big beef, with Apple, and other manufacturers is locking down the hardware so that you cannot install, nor develop 3rd party operating systems. IMHO, if you don't like the app store model, and think they can do better, Create your OWN OS that can sideload as desired. The hardware should allow that since legally, the hardware is owned by the purchaser, not Apple/Samsung/Insert your favourite vendor here
 
Difference is you can make any Xbox game without giving Microsoft a cut
No you can't. XBox, like all game consoles since the 8-bit Nintendo (1983) have had lockout chips that prevent unauthorized software from running. If the console manufacturer doesn't approve (and get a royalty from you) then your game will only run for people who have hacked their consoles.

You can use free ones now? I thought you had to have one in the paid iOS Dev program.
It's been that way for quite a while.

You need a paid up account to distribute your app (via the App Store) or to sign it with an Enterprise certificate (for distribution in a corporate environment), but every copy of Xcode can self-generate a personal certificate which you can use to install what you compile for yourself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sudo1996
I think the request and complaint that is driving this is more coming from the developer side of the fence.

With Apple controlling the rules by which you can have your software on the App store, Apple can deny entry onto their platform for whatever reason Apple decides (whether legit or morally valid or not). In Addition Apple takes 30% cut of all App purchases and in-App purchases.

if you're a small time developer, this can be daunting. You can spend a lot of time and money developing a program that you believe to be the best thing ever, only to find out that Apple has decided you're not allowed having that in the App store. Examples being that Apple has policy that you cannot release through the App store an App that reproduces functionality that Apple gives you in their stock Apps (with some exceptions such as music and maps).

As for the 30% off the top that Apple takes, can cause developers from being hesitant to the platform as well, especially if their creating a low margin App that relies on volume of sales in a highly competitive market. If there are 2 companies selling a similar 0.99c application, a larger, already established company is going to be able to eat that cost far 30c cost far greater than a smaller independent developer.

These are just some of the reasons I can see Developers wishing for Apple to remove their App store restriction. (Please don't take this as me agreeing / disagreeing with the premise, this is just me putting on different hats to come up with potential reasons for this). IMHO, if Apple's App store doesn't provide the financial motiviation or incentives, like any other market, they should then move on to other platforms.

My big beef, with Apple, and other manufacturers is locking down the hardware so that you cannot install, nor develop 3rd party operating systems. IMHO, if you don't like the app store model, and think they can do better, Create your OWN OS that can sideload as desired. The hardware should allow that since legally, the hardware is owned by the purchaser, not Apple/Samsung/Insert your favourite vendor here

Agreed that it is probably developer driven.

But, let's say that a developer does want to sell outside the Apple Store. They would still occur distribution costs, web hosting, order system, credit card fee charges. How much is the difference between those costs vs. the 30% Apple infrastructure fee.

Smaller developer could then get together and create another store, but they would then have the same cost problems.

I don't know if a developer should be in the penny business where volume makes the profit.

Except for gaming, I don't see a ton of apps out there which are needed. To me this is. alit bit like a gold rush mentality and the deliver want a free spot at the river where the land is owned by somebody else.
 
Agreed that it is probably developer driven.

But, let's say that a developer does want to sell outside the Apple Store. They would still occur distribution costs, web hosting, order system, credit card fee charges. How much is the difference between those costs vs. the 30% Apple infrastructure fee.

Smaller developer could then get together and create another store, but they would then have the same cost problems.

I don't know if a developer should be in the penny business where volume makes the profit.

Except for gaming, I don't see a ton of apps out there which are needed. To me this is. alit bit like a gold rush mentality and the deliver want a free spot at the river where the land is owned by somebody else.

it all really comes down to whether or not the developer believes that 30% cut is reasonable for the services Apple is providing with the store. For some, yes. For some, No, and for some. that 30% could drive them out of business.

I think ultimately they are just looking for choice. Something they don't hvae right now (other than to develop iOS apps or not)
 
Agreed that it is probably developer driven.

But, let's say that a developer does want to sell outside the Apple Store. They would still occur distribution costs, web hosting, order system, credit card fee charges. How much is the difference between those costs vs. the 30% Apple infrastructure fee.

Smaller developer could then get together and create another store, but they would then have the same cost problems.

I don't know if a developer should be in the penny business where volume makes the profit.

Except for gaming, I don't see a ton of apps out there which are needed. To me this is. alit bit like a gold rush mentality and the deliver want a free spot at the river where the land is owned by somebody else.
Yeah, I think it's actually more of an issue for big developers that have their own websites anyway. Spotify, for example, wants to sell their membership without giving 30% to Apple.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shamino
So the Macintosh is less secure than iOS because it "allows" you to choose to install any software you want? Should I be more paranoid on my Mac than on my phone? Personally, I'd never run banking or other apps on my phone. I bought a Mac specifically because it has the lowest or close to the lowest malware of any computer system. That's partially due to Unix and partially due to low market share. iOS has high market share. That makes it more of a target regardless of whether they allow you to "choose" to install software from other sources. But if that alone were a huge risk, why is the Mac still using open software? Closed software systems are generally unpopular. The Mac App store gets 23% of the market share. Clearly people prefer more choices and lower prices over supposed more security (plus any flaw in their App store might apply to everyone).

So the mac is immune to ANY form of malware then? Is it much more common on macs than iOS? Yes, macs do get malware. Yes, there are some bad apps in the app store here and there. It is much easier to get a mac infected than an iOS device.

Macs give me the ability to download a corrupt FREE Photoshop program from site XYZ. I cannot do than on my phone.

Your phones are much more personal than your computer. It has tracking information on where you are and your schedule. I do not know about you, but I am more concerned about my phone getting hacked than my computer.
 
Last edited:
Agreed that it is probably developer driven.

But, let's say that a developer does want to sell outside the Apple Store. They would still occur distribution costs, web hosting, order system, credit card fee charges. How much is the difference between those costs vs. the 30% Apple infrastructure fee.

Does that entitle Apple to a monopoly on distribution? On the Mac, if I'm going to buy a game, I normally can pick between the Apple App Store and Steam. Let me tell you that Steam gets 95% of my business. It's more than distribution. They have significant sales with discounted prices up to 80%. They ensure compatibility and host games in multiplayer with PCs and Linux. They normally give you the PC/Linux versions for free so if you switch computers at some point or have more than one you don't have to buy the same games twice! All that is possible ONLY because Apple doesn't have an App Store monopoly on the Mac side. App Store for Mac gets like 23% of Mac software sales. That should tell you how popular it would be on iOS if consumers had a CHOICE other than jailbreaking. Having a monopoly on distribution leads to laziness (what App store game ever worked with a PC one?), stale support and generally not listening to developers wishes, all of which have been leveled against Apple before.

I'd go one step further even. I don't think Apple should be allowed to have a monopoly on Macintosh hardware either. Macs are just basic PCs that can obviously run Windows on them (Boot Camp). Pretty little cases is about the only thing that makes them unique. If anything, there are too few models that are updated far too infrequently and if not already obvious to most cost WAY TOO MUCH. Hackintosh shows that macOS will run just fine on a PC. It's only Apple that purposely blocks it so once again, they can have a monopoly on macOS hardware sales. My biggest problem in finding a replacement for my 2012 Mac Mini Server is that Apple's hardware options are UTTERLY INADEQUATE. They have only updated the Mini ONCE since 2012 and it was a HUGE STEP DOWN (no quad-core; no i7s; no dual hard drives and a case that doesn't allow modifications or adding another drive). That is something only happens when the hardware maker has a monopoly on their operating system's hardware! Decisions like that would put a company out of business if it had even ONE competitor!!! People that prefer the Mac operating system are forced to use Apple's hardware or play with Hackintosh hacks. There is NO DIFFERENCE here than with the software side. They are two separate markets! Hardware and Software are NOT the same thing! Apple should have to compete for hardware sales for macOS like companies have to compete now even against Microsoft (who is now making/selling some PC models) for hardware sales.

It doesn't take a genius to see how these virtual monopolies within a given system (not the system or OS themselves which are NOT monopolies) hurt the consumer. I have no good hardware choices to upgrade my Mac server at any price. I'd have to change to an iMac or Macbook which simply aren't really server replacements and the Mac Pro is massively overpriced for that function and totally out of date to boot! Apple is creating a headache and limiting its own sales by not providing PROPER timely (UP not down)-grades to even their own existing models, let alone offer something like the "X Mac" that many have wanted ever since they got rid of the PowerMac models.

Smaller developer could then get together and create another store, but they would then have the same cost problems.

Most people I get Mac software from have their own web sites and distribute directly with PayPal. Yes, PayPal gets a cut. It's not 30%. It is 2.9%.

Except for gaming, I don't see a ton of apps out there which are needed. To me this is. alit bit like a gold rush mentality and the deliver want a free spot at the river where the land is owned by somebody else.

Much of my software is open source project stuff that is free. It's distributed directly and Apple would NEVER approve it for their App store (anything from Blu-ray rippers (MakeMKV) and movie encoders (Handbrake) to media players (Kodi). Utilities like AdbLink for FireTV side-loading management to editing meta data programs like Subler. Music transcoding software like XLC. Emulators anywhere from Atari 2600 to Commodore Amiga. NONE of those would EVER be allowed on Apple's App Store. So if the Mac started forcing a closed system, you can bet I'll be abandoning the Mac platform as much of my software library would become extinct on the Mac platform because Apple doesn't approve of those programs.

Now how many similar type programs aren't available for iOS??? How can an iPad Pro possibly replace a Mac or compete against a Surface Pro when it CANNOT run REAL utility software? It'd be pretty hard to manage your home theater setup with an iPad when none of those utilities are available (unless the only thing you ever use is AppleTV + iTunes which I'm sure Apple would love for you to do). It can't even use its own filing system directly! It's nanny-watched from start to finish. That's a TOY, not a computer.

Apple wouldn't even let another browser on iOS for YEARS (and they're still using a Safari backend even so I believe) because they COMPETE against Apple's own software, which would be a good thing for the consumer, not a bad one. I'm sure most companies would prefer having monopolies on market segments and sub-markets categories. That means PURE PROFIT because they can charge almost anything they want (short of driving their customers to an entirely different incompatible system, even if that means replacing their entire software library). Hence the reason Apple has SO MUCH MONEY. They get 100% of iOS hardware profits. They get at least 30% of all iOS software profits (and 100% of all fees). They get 100% of all macOS hardware profits.

Yet they only get 6.9% of macOS software profits (30% of 23% software sales share excluding Apple's own titles like Logic X or Final Cut X where they get 100% for those titles) and that's because that is the ONE AREA they don't have a total lock/monopoly...YET. They've been gently pushing more and more towards making the Mac App Store more convenient (by making it harder and harder to install non-approved software), but thus far they clearly are afraid that the Mac would DIE if they forced users to only get software through them. Do you think Apple would sell you Leisure Suit Larry Enhanced? That would violate their decency guidelines whereby all software should be rated the equivalent of PG-13 or less. Do you think they would start ensuring multiplayer compatibility with PC versions? They haven't yet. In fact, they've traditionally shown almost ZERO interest in gaming period. If it weren't for Steam and Valve, there would be almost NO GAMES WHATSOEVER for the Mac. Apple is not doing its users any favors with these walled gardens. It limits their software which can limit hardware sales as well. They should be careful how far they go down that street, especially on the Mac. I would not hesitate to leave. My old Macs would run older versions of software and most of my gaming library is already ready for download on the PC (and an increasingly substantial amount for Linux), making it less painful to switch back to Windows or to Linux. I stay on the Mac only as long as it benefits *ME* (not Apple) to do so.
[doublepost=1498668141][/doublepost]
So the mac is immune to ANY form of malware then? Is it much more common on macs than iOS? Yes, macs do get malware. Yes, there are some bad apps in the app store here and there. It is much easier to get a mac infected than an iOS device.

Don't confuse malware with hacking, phishing and other forms of getting at your data or money. iPhones are FAR more lucrative to hack than a given Mac because there are so many more of them out there and things like banking apps are common. The NSA was able to listen to any conversation it wanted to (still can I'd wager) on any cell phone in the country. Malware may be less frequent than the Mac (which is still massively low for anything but worms which are typically only found on phony/free hacked software), but the sheer number of iPhones make them a more valuable kill if they can slip one by in the App store.

Macs give me the ability to download a corrupt FREE Photoshop program from site XYZ. I cannot do than on my phone.

You're right. There is no proper Photoshop App available for your phone to download.... The idea an iPhone cannot be jailbroken is ludicrous as it happens all the time (hacked). If it can be jailbroken, pirate software COULD be installed on it. But as I said, there is no full Photoshop for iOS (Apple probably wishes there was for its ailing iPad Pro which is struggling to get ANY "Pro" software made for it).
 
You're right. There is no proper Photoshop App available for your phone to download.... The idea an iPhone cannot be jailbroken is ludicrous as it happens all the time (hacked). If it can be jailbroken, pirate software COULD be installed on it. But as I said, there is no full Photoshop for iOS (Apple probably wishes there was for its ailing iPad Pro which is struggling to get ANY "Pro" software made for it).

You are arguing the wrong point. I can install ANYTHING I want on a mac. Even a corrupt Photoshop file. On my phone WITHOUT jailbreaking, I cannot. The argument is not a lack of a full Photoshop program (who needs to use a FULL Photoshop on a 5.5" screen anyway?!), the argument is there are no hacked/cracked/illegal versions you can install without jailbreaking. On the mac, I can. And it will most like contain malware.
 
it all really comes down to whether or not the developer believes that 30% cut is reasonable for the services Apple is providing with the store. For some, yes. For some, No, and for some. that 30% could drive them out of business.
Keep in mind that this is actually a pretty good deal compared to other avenues.

Other app stores (and download stores for music, videos and books, for that matter) charge more. And those who want to distribute the old fashioned way (boxed CDs distributed in physical stores) can end up giving up 80% or more of the retail price to the publisher and distributor.

There's a reason developers have flocked to the App Store. Not just for iOS (where there aren't any other viable options) but for Mac, where there are many great alternatives.

Yeah, I think it's actually more of an issue for big developers that have their own websites anyway. Spotify, for example, wants to sell their membership without giving 30% to Apple.
For a company that is big enough to host its own distribution channel, then yes, the equation changes somewhat. But you would still have to compare the total cost. How much does it cost to run a web site, pay companies like Akamai to keep heavy loads from killing your servers, handle payment processing securely, etc., etc.?

If you're selling a cheap app (say, $0-20), Apple's 30% cut is probably a bargain. If you're selling something much more expensive (say, a productivity app for $100-500 or a server app for $1000+) then that 30% is probably way too much to make sense.
 
Keep in mind that this is actually a pretty good deal compared to other avenues.

Other app stores (and download stores for music, videos and books, for that matter) charge more. And those who want to distribute the old fashioned way (boxed CDs distributed in physical stores) can end up giving up 80% or more of the retail price to the publisher and distributor.

There's a reason developers have flocked to the App Store. Not just for iOS (where there aren't any other viable options) but for Mac, where there are many great alternatives.

For a company that is big enough to host its own distribution channel, then yes, the equation changes somewhat. But you would still have to compare the total cost. How much does it cost to run a web site, pay companies like Akamai to keep heavy loads from killing your servers, handle payment processing securely, etc., etc.?

If you're selling a cheap app (say, $0-20), Apple's 30% cut is probably a bargain. If you're selling something much more expensive (say, a productivity app for $100-500 or a server app for $1000+) then that 30% is probably way too much to make sense.

oh i'm just making comments from both sides here, these are not my own personal opinions on the matter.

it's going to always be a cost v revenue breakdown. the 30% could be fine for many and might not be for others.

however, comparing to real stores isn't really great since there's a lot more variables involved, (real stores have inventory, and real world space concerns with real estate etc etc that it's just not easy to straight up compare)

but as you said, depends what you're selling and whether or not the cost from Apple is worth it.

Using the spotify example.

Spotify only uses Apple for the initial app distribution (similar to all other apps). But, Apple demands if userse sign up for Spotify subscription, a % of that cost of the recurring payment goes to Apple. (I believe it's 15% now). Apple is not part fo the equation anymore. once that app is on your device, your communication to spotify is direct. Apple's services and servers are no longer involved, nor are they taking any of the load of the streaming services. So what does 15% of the recurring payments buy spotify?

Payment processing.

When you realize that after initial first month, 15% of the cost is being given to apple for payment processing only, is when the App store model starts making even less sense. The typical non-Apple payment processor (Visa, Mastercard, etc) only takes 1-2%.

So continuing to provide payment options via Apple's store is going to cost Spotify 13% extra percent off their revenues than they would get if they just sold subscriptions elsewhere.

If the companies get frustrated enough, Like Amazon for example, they'll stop providing the capabilities of IAP for some of their services (like Kindle). Making other platforms better if you're a heavy kindle user (it's just easier to purchase directly on your device without having to remember to go the a website, or some other pay location).

again, i'm just looking at all the possible "if" scenarios and none of these are absolutely true or happening. just potentials or has happened. lots of speculation, so nobody read this as me saying "EVERYTHING IS BAD! HATE HATE HATE!" :p
 
For a company that is big enough to host its own distribution channel, then yes, the equation changes somewhat. But you would still have to compare the total cost. How much does it cost to run a web site, pay companies like Akamai to keep heavy loads from killing your servers, handle payment processing securely, etc., etc.?

If you're selling a cheap app (say, $0-20), Apple's 30% cut is probably a bargain. If you're selling something much more expensive (say, a productivity app for $100-500 or a server app for $1000+) then that 30% is probably way too much to make sense.
Spotify still has to host their own music servers, so really the only thing to host is the app. Like many apps nowadays, it's free to download, and they make money from subscriptions. Problem is Apple takes 30% of the subscription fee since it's considered an IAP. I'm pretty sure that 30% of the subscription price, times the fraction of people who actually buy it, is still a lot more than the cost to host downloads for the small app bundle itself. It's a similar story for a lot of other things.

With this being said, I still take Apple's side on this. I'm just saying, I think all the big developers are not in favor of using the App Store.
 
Last edited:
You are arguing the wrong point. I can install ANYTHING I want on a mac. Even a corrupt Photoshop file. On my phone WITHOUT jailbreaking, I cannot. The argument is not a lack of a full Photoshop program (who needs to use a FULL Photoshop on a 5.5" screen anyway?!), the argument is there are no hacked/cracked/illegal versions you can install without jailbreaking. On the mac, I can. And it will most like contain malware.

No, I got your point. I was making fun of it because it's ridiculous. YOU are the one that seems to be missing the points. ALL of them.

I'm saying THERE IS NO FULL PHOTOSHOP on ANY Apple App Store PERIOD so WTF is the point of bringing up Photoshop on the Mac when it's not available from ANY Apple App store??? You TWIST the argument into you can get a hacked malware laden Photoshop because Apple allows you to do anything you want implying therein that if the Mac was a walled garden you wouldn't have this malware laden illegal software even as an option. But there is no Photoshop on the Mac App Store so it would be MORE ACCURATE to say you would not have Photoshop on your Mac PERIOD. You would have NO professional software because companies that charge large amounts of money don't feel like giving Apple $333 out of $1000 just for hosting the fracking file on their miserable fascist App Store (or raising their price by OVER $333 to compensate for it which pisses off consumers). If Apple creates a walled garden for Mac, you have no Photoshop at all (malware laden or legit).

Other points you ignore or missed:

1> You cannot install unapproved software and this means anything from a Socialism/Communism/Fascist Nanny State where the government (this case Apple) decides what's good for you instead of treating like you an adult that can make their own decisions (You call this hacked/illegal Photoshop versions with malware on them. I called it everything from Handbrake to Emulators to Subler to Adblink to about 50% of ALL software on my computer and those aren't illegal malware ridden programs).

2> The apps store doesn't offer PC compatibility or PC versions at no extra charge like Steam. This saves you from having to buy all new software if you switch platforms. You buy a license for the GAME not the platform.

3> The App store doesn't offer sales like Steam. These are HUGE a couple of times a year. I've saved up to 80% on 1st tier games before and 25-40% is common during these sales. I've NEVER seen a significant sale on the Apple's Mac App Store EVER. This is possible due to COMPETITION. If there is no Steam, you pay FULL PRICE every single time or put up with some miserable thing like "ad ware".

4> The App Store represents a monopoly for the iOS platform's SOFTWARE. This means NO COMPETITION. This means NO ALTERNATIVE DISTRIBUTION and that completely discourages QUALITY SOFTWARE because who is going to put YEARS of development into a program like making Photoshop only to have Apple DENY it and therefore waste potentially MILLIONS in development, let alone lost potential sales. That is 110% the reason there is almost NO "Pro" level software for the iPad Pro. NO ONE wants to WASTE THEIR FREAKING TIME making something that Apple could deny on a flipping WHIM!!!!!

Thus, if you turn the Mac into a walled garden also, YOU KILL THE MAC! Even Linux has OPEN software. It may lack commercial software, but the Mac would lack open/free software AND large scale commercial software (again, they won't develop it if they feel there's even a chance it won't be allowed to be sold). It would be a JOKE of a platform. Phones have thousands of small/cheap/worthless/garbage Apps. They take very VERY little time to develop compared to a 1st tier game or App like Office or Photoshop. I don't even hardly bother with Apps on my phone because they're mostly garbage. I've had three iPod Touches and I mostly use "Remote" and the browser. The rest of hardly worth starting. Most are just Web sites in a can as opposed to using the web browser.

Yes, you can try to find and download pirated software on an open platform. That has been true since the Commodore 64 days even. The industry still exists (Microsoft killed Commodore, not pirating). The alternative is to give up any free choice of software since Apple has shown they will not tolerate any number of apps and games due to frivolous nonsense and Victorian era attitudes. How else can you explain the absolute lack of "Pro" apps for the so-called iPad "PRO"? Ask the companies. They don't want to put money into a TINY market where their App could be denied even a chance to be sold. They don't want to give Apple (ala Microsoft with Office) HUGE amounts of money (it's a percentage, not a flat fee which means more expensive software pay a LOT more of the profits to Apple for the same service a 99 cents App receives).

On the Mac, you can make your application (e.g. MakeMKV) and distribute it any way you like. You can use PayPal and pay less than 3% for the transaction compared to 30% from Apple. You keep all that money, not Apple. Apple has every incentive to get that money (hey FREE money for doing NOTHING but hosting and transacting the sale) and developers have every incentive to keep it (years of hard work that Apple wants to take 1/3 of BECAUSE THEY CAN).

Apple via Tim Cook likes to act like they're a responsible company. For example, yes Tim Cook supports gay rights, but then we have to also remember that Tim Cook is gay. So he has every personal reason to support that because it affects him personally and yet when it comes to sales to somewhere like Saudi Arabia, not a peep out of him! Tim makes progress for "green" tech to appease groups criticizing Apple and potentially costing them sales, but then he creates a culture of DISPOSABLE COMPUTERS that are designed to artificially have VERY SHORT lifetimes by purposely making iOS bulkier and slower each year so it takes more power just to do the basics. And when it comes to free choice or offering FAIR prices, he's every bit as nasty as someone like Donald Trump. Screw the customers and developers over for as much you can get away with. Thus, Cook is a charlatan. He looks after #1 and that's it. Shareholders love it. Steve Jobs was more concerned with developing new products and reinvesting money than holding onto it forever or giving it away to shareholders (Apple never had dividends under Jobs).

I may like some Apple products, but lately it's a choice of the lesser of two evils. I always hated Microsoft and I'm liking Apple less and less each year, but the alternative (Linux) still utterly lacks commercial software and support by comparison. But if Apple goes full walled garden on Mac, I'm gone. Period. I will not tolerate fascist control of my computer platform.
 
Uh....greed? Saving that 30%.
This would mean the App Store is not such a good deal if developers would abandon it as soon as competing alternatives are actually allowed to compete with it.

Not to mention that having to actually compete with third-parties might force Apple to reduce prices or offer even better features.
 
I agree with your whole post except this part. Anti corporation is very big in the us......except when it comes to apple. Huge double standard. Bells busted, microsoft sued. Anti trust laws get used except for when it comes to apple. The same people worshiping apple are mostly against any other corporations.

Nope, wrong. Apple does NOT have a smart phone monopoly so anti-trust laws don't apply. They don't even have a smartphone majority in the U.S.

"But they have a monopoly on iOS!" Yeah, so you can't have a monopoly on the specific product you make, only the category it belongs to. Saying Apple has a "monopoly" on iOS is like saying McDonald's has a monopoly on the Big Mac or Ford has a monopoly on the Focus. Or Hasbro has a monopoly on My Little Pony. By your logic every company is a monopoly, which is completely ridiculous and from a legal standpoint, complete garbage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shamino
Nope, wrong. Apple does NOT have a smart phone monopoly so anti-trust laws don't apply. They don't even have a smartphone majority in the U.S.

"But they have a monopoly on iOS!" Yeah, so you can't have a monopoly on the specific product you make, only the category it belongs to. Saying Apple has a "monopoly" on iOS is like saying McDonald's has a monopoly on the Big Mac or Ford has a monopoly on the Focus. Or Hasbro has a monopoly on My Little Pony. By your logic every company is a monopoly, which is completely ridiculous and from a legal standpoint, complete garbage.

Hardware and Software are two separate markets and DISTRIBUTION is a 3rd market. There are hardware makers, software makers and shipping/store distributors and some do more than one. The fact some do more than one is why the TYING clause exists in the Antitrust Laws of the United States and it is the tying clause that Apple is violating. The tying clause exists SPECIFICALLY to prevent companies from actively trying to thwart competition for their products in associated sub-markets.

The only question the courts have looked at is whether a given product has "significant" market power to thwart competition. Sadly, that isn't a very concrete way to measure something. The case against Xerox basing warranties on using only their cartridges was lost because the court found they offered the warranty free of charge and didn't represent a large enough market power to enforce the law. The government picked on Microsoft for years because they concluded they did have "significant" market power (they are not and have NEVER been a "monopoly").

Apple used to be a smaller company in danger of bankruptcy so they were never even questioned in anything they did. But that is no longer the case! They have huge margins and affect huge parts of the smart phone market. They do not remotely have a monopoly on smart phones. They do, however artificially TIE the phone to their distribution system and also act as a NANNY (deny free expression) for their platform. Thus, based on past precedent in regards to Antitrust Law they are clearly in violation of the tying clause itself and the only question left is whether that tie thwarts competition in a "significant" way. I can easily see judges being divided on that question because it's subjective in regards to past precedent since the law isn't specific enough as to what "significant" means.

I would argue being the richest the company in the world several times over in the past decade is "significant" since the vast majority of their money comes from smart phones and despite not being a monopoly, they do take most of the profits from the entire market despite only representing about 20% of the total smart phones out there. This is ENTIRELY because they have no competition within their product line for software distribution. They get a 30% cut of EVERYTHING EVERYONE MAKES PERIOD for their platform. Given the amounts of money involved, namely Apple's iPhone representing only about 20% of the smart phone hardware market yet taking home 91% of the profits, I'd call that VERY SIGNIFICANT (http://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/23/appl...nt-of-global-smartphone-profits-research.html). Software is separate from the hardware. How are they making that profit, then? It's because they have no competition for distribution they get 30% of all sales for the platform. Android allows 3rd party installation and so does not remotely approach that figure and has to share hardware sales among many manufacturers.

You can argue otherwise, but it all comes down to the word "significant" and its interpretation. There is no argument that they do not artificially tie their software distribution to only Apple's iTunes App Store. That is a given FACT.
 
Last edited:
I'd usually agree but not in this case.

[doublepost=1498383818][/doublepost]
If you don't like it switch is such a childish thing to say and lacks the imagination to come up with a good argument.

Really, name calling is a better argument? No, there's no reason I can't point out that many, many people like things they way they are and resent the efforts of a discontented few that insist it should be taken away instead of choosing an available product that meets their needs.
 
Really, name calling is a better argument? No, there's no reason I can't point out that many, many people like things they way they are and resent the efforts of a discontented few that insist it should be taken away instead of choosing an available product that meets their needs.
Name calling? I have no idea what you are referring to.

I called you childish for your statement: "Please, just go buy that and let the rest of us enjoy the service we get from our iPhones."
 
Than that's the companies problem. It's their risk to take.



If this is your only rebuttal, you've already lost the argument.

I doubt it since my arguments represents reality while you think that your particular mental construct is the only one. Many small businesses do not have the funds to pay for everyone's smartphone and service but the tradeoff to leverage those devices for extra productivity for some risk is worth it.

Maybe in your world it exists to your ideals but the real world is much messier than that. To assume that only your way is the right way smacks of elitist ignorance. I would rather you not suffer that character flaws.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.