Proposed Law Against Apple's 'Walled Garden' Software Approach Sparks Fears of iPhone Ban in Italy

[TheAustrianGuy]

Go, Italian Parliamentary system, pass this!
Have all iOS devices be outlawed.
And never be voted for again by anyone who either is an Apple user or has any sense for security.

They can't be that stupid.
They can't have that little insight into technology and security.

We'll see if that holds true.

 

[redscull]

Apple have relentlessly abused their code signing on iOS for anti-competitive reasons, and the ecosystem is significantly poorer for it.

It is? Where is the proof? Apple's ecosystem is radically more robust and healthy than Android. Are you just talking about what it theoretically could have been, if it had been open like Android? What factor(s) in particular would have made it steer entirely opposite the direction Android's ecosystem found itself in?

Apple's censorship of speech on iOS is a defacto evil on society.

I know I'm just feeding a troll at this point.. but whatever censorship Apple may impose on apps doesn't prevent Apple users from freely expressing themselves or seeing others' speech on the internet. Nor even within the apps. Facebook, for example, may censor user content in Facebook, but that's not Apple's doing. That's Facebook's. And until Apple starts blocking its users from accessing whatever internet address they want, it's not really censoring anything at all. Much less would Apple's censorship be an evil on society. Apple isn't even the most prevalent player in this space. They cannot begin to affect the entirety of society.

A walled garden is, ultimately, a moral evil - a central code signing monopoly is fundamentally setting up a system of control that is inevitably abused by governments.

I'll grant you that the latter part of this statement could become true. With great power comes great responsibility. Whether it's good or evil depends on how that power is used, not what the power itself is. So far, I feel like Apple's been acting in my best interests.
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Hardware platforms should be open. now, if nobody writes an OS for an iPhone, thats completely different. But I should have the right to install whatever I want on the hardware I purchase.

This is a palatable rule. Apple still wouldn't like it because they also make a lot of money off the services and apps that run on their hardware, not just the hardware itself, but at least this wouldn't adversely affect Apple's users who choose to remain on iOS. No backdoors to exploit. No confusion over multiple app stores. We might see Apple try to recoup some of that lost revenue by increasing prices, but I doubt the root and reinstall market would be all that big and thus not hurt their margins by any significant amount. After all, it's the entire Apple/iOS experience that makes their devices popular, not the raw hardware itself.

 

[sdz]

Well, we've seen this before, and it worked out really well.

The sheer quantity of apps being removed from the App Store recently is proof that there are a lot of shady developers out there that don't care about end users, but just want to make a quick million. The "walled garden" filters much of that junk. It's nice inside here.

so nice, that as an Adult I cant have porn apps nor torrent clients.

 

[mudflap]

Stay out of my garden and get off my lawn.

 

[Uelemal]

And here we have another example of politicians not understanding how anything works.

In a country where the minister of the education stopped to study after the high school you cannot expect much more than that...

 

[macs4nw]

Hopefully this fails. I don't want iPhones to end up like Android and have to deal with anti-virus apps and risk getting malware.

What is so wrong with Apple's approach? It's not like there isn't a platform that offers open everything if you want to put up with the downsides...

And here we have another example of politicians not understanding how anything works.

I think this is a bad idea all around. Anything that compromises, or even only has the potential to compromise the security of our iPhones and the software and Apps we're running on them must be stopped in its tracks. The potential consequences are just too far reaching to risk messing up a good thing Apple has going with their 'walled garden'. Poorly or unvetted Apps could potentially infect our devices, or even affect iCloud, the Secure Enclave, etc.

I hope Apple sticks to their guns here, unless an acceptable compromise can be reached that does not compromise any of the built-in security measures we bank on. To a degree we must count on our Italian iPhone-using friends to convince their overzealous lawmakers to rethink this bill as it pertains to Apple's walled garden. This is consumer protection gone over the top, and if passed in Italy, similar laws could be adopted in other jurisdictions.

I believe most iPhone owners are aware of the closed ecosystem they are part of, and I venture to say they like the fact Apple usually is quite diligent, albeit slow sometimes, in ensuring the safety and quality of submitted Apps.

Our entire digital lives are on these devices, and I for one count on the walled garden to at least minimize the risks I face when using my personal electronics on a daily basis.

 

[giggles]

clickbaity law and reporting

 

[Channan]

Well, we've seen this before, and it worked out really well.

The sheer quantity of apps being removed from the App Store recently is proof that there are a lot of shady developers out there that don't care about end users, but just want to make a quick million. The "walled garden" filters much of that junk. It's nice inside here.

Then stay inside your garden. Just because the feature is there doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Wouldn't this...ban all video game systems?

The Nintendo Switch isn't able to sideload, for example.

 

[thisisnotmyname]

Well I'm not an developer so I can't speak on "weaken defenses".
If you have technical knowledge of how the defenses would be weakened would you care to share them?

Layman's terms, right now there is no method to install a new app onto your device unless you obtain it from Apple's App Store. Let's say that this legislation requires Apple to provide a method for users of iOS devices to be able to install any app they want from any source, now that capability exists even though it likely has some protections that require you to accept the new app attempting to be installed (e.g. click "OK" on a scary warning message). The mere fact that that capability would now exist means it can be used as an attack vector by malware developers, they now have an official way to get their own app onto your system provided they can just defeat the safeguard of you clicking "OK" or whatnot, that's a huge step forward for them from the current situation of no method to install without going through app store. (right now it would require jailbreaking the entire phone or side loading via physical access to your unlocked phone and tethering it to a Mac with Xcode) That makes all of our security worse.

edit: still not trivial but definitely a weakening of defenses.

 

[Pakaku]

I can run "unapproved" apps not sold through the App Store on my Mac. Why should the iPhone or iPad be any different?

 

[nsayer]

I can run "unapproved" apps not sold through the App Store on my Mac. Why should the iPhone or iPad be any different?

Because I don't expect to use my mac to call 911 or do turn-by-turn navigation while I'm driving or a few other things that are slightly more critical than what I expect of a general purpose computer.

There's a continuum. On the one end are smart appliances and on the other are general purpose computers. The further you are on the appliance end, the less flexibility I expect and the less tolerant I am of it not working right.

As for the iPad, I don't care - I don't use one.

 

[FrenchRoasted]

Yet another example of the political class willfully not understanding the concept of property rights. I would love to see Apple pull out of Italy over this, but I suspect the EU bureaucracy to step in and force Apple's hand.

 

[Darth.Titan]

Try not to think as an apologist and it'll make complete sense. Like US vs Microsoft case, Apple have a monopoly on iOS and are abusing it to force their own default apps down people's throat. Even Apple's own MacOS doesn't do it so iOS shouldn't be exempted.

Straight to name calling, huh? I have no need or desire to apologize for Apple.

You just need to look up the definition of the word "monopoly". It is not applicable here.

 

[vladi]

Politicians never fail to amuse with their stupid plans to interfere in other people business.

One of the reasons why Cable is your enemy number one these days is due to lack of regulations back in the day. Regulations that would have banned hardware infrastructure provider to act as content provider as well. If these two were separate from the get go we would have had way too many cable companies fighting over our money.

Same thing is happening with Apple and Google. They provide you with the hardware and they provide you with content. And before you jump and say its 3rd party app developers that provide you the content just stop and think about it for a second. Apple charges developers, Apple picks which apps they want to carry and it's only Apple that will give it to you for the certain price. Sounds familiar doesn't it? TV channels pay Cable companies to be broadcast, Cable company choose whose money they gonna take and then Cable charges you to watch their hand picked TV channels.

It's the same mistake all over again! And Apple has proved in fact they are willing to drop the app out of the app store only so they could replace it with their own. It's no secret that Apple and Google would be the happiest couple if they could have you use their apps only, they don't care about 3rd party developers, they want to suck you in. That is their ultimate goal.

On the subject of malware on iOS, no non-OEM app can access the system so low to make a threat to your device and operating system. iOS is not clunker fest Android.

 

[yakapo]

I wouldn't mind being able to install 3rd party apps on my iPad. It works on OS X, why can't it work on iOS?

 

[springsup]

Seems like all Apple would have to do is allow you an easy way to install apps from other sources. As they move the iPad closer and closer to being a computer, I see fewer and fewer reasons to keeping the devices restricted only to Apple-approved apps.

They could go the Android route, block third-party installs by default, warn users a dozen times, and then allow it if the user wants it. It's not like installing apps from other sources is a new concept. Apple has just chosen not to allow it.

Apple is never going to allow App sources other than the official AppStore. No way. There are plenty of reasons, both technical and business, to stick with the current approach.

Apple can easily point to a bazillion downloads and sales charts to show that this barrier is not hurting consumers. Moreover, a few years ago they made it possible for developers on the free registration tier to compile and install Apps on their own devices. They are also heavily promoting Swift playgrounds which can be used to run code on-device (and I expect a full-blown Xcode will follow - either next year or the year after). So they definitely comply with the spirit of that part of the law regarding running/installing open-source software and promoting access to software.

 

[RickInHouston]

Android is garbage.

No, you are wrong. It's just not for you.

 

[skinned66]

This is really groan worthy and I can't tell if you're joking or not. Just in case you aren't... any app made for android can be loaded onto a compatible Android device. Simple
Seems rather greedy of Apple to not let us sideload apps when our computers can do, and they still retain security, too.

They do allow it, you just need a Mac, Xcode and pay for a dev account unless you want to "re-bless" the app since the free signing certs only last a few days. But I'll go along with "greedy"

 

[HiRez]

OK, so Apple can allow them to download the software, then block them from running the software.

 

[prowlmedia]

This passing is very unlikely, but god I hope it does.

All competition law should feature this, always. Apple have relentlessly abused their code signing on iOS for anti-competitive reasons, and the ecosystem is significantly poorer for it. Apple's censorship of speech on iOS is a defacto evil on society.

The talk of malware on this thread is ludicrously overblown. Malware is not "prevalent" on Android devices, just as it's not "prevalent" on a Mac. It's a tiny, infinitesimally small issue that is trivially mitigated in many ways. A walled garden is, ultimately, a moral evil - a central code signing monopoly is fundamentally setting up a system of control that is inevitably abused by governments.

Wow. Utterly disagree. I know of lots of android users that have been caught out. It's non existent on iOS device ( you mentioned Mac's that can be caught out IF you manually install something infected )

A walled App Store ensures that you are using safe software - and the codebase is not compromised .

You feel so strongly about it how about you go and design your own phone and operating system and give it away for free. The main reason the iPhone is so good is that it's NOT open source like the mess that is Android for the most part. iPhones are kept uptodate instantly - not at the whim of the Manufacturer / Network. Some Android phones never get updates and you are stuck with the release OS version - Sony I am looking at you here.

Look at PCs.... Viruses galore - no walls

 

[techwarrior]

Apple could send a clear message and stop selling in Italy, users would march on their capitol and demand resignations from these renegades. iOS market share in Italy seems to be in the 15-20% range, probably enough to cause an uproar. If Apple pulled products prior to the passage, they could potentially scare them off.

If Apple doesn't take a strong stand, it could spread like a virus.

I don't really see the problem they are trying to solve here, just meddling in places they have no business. Like others have said, the peace of mind the walled garden affords is why I have never ventured into the Android world other than when necessary for my job.

 

[prowlmedia]

No it won't, you can buy console games anywhere, not only in their stores.....GameStop, BestBuy, you know... stores different from the manufacturer's one?

Hmm only if it's a disc game right... what about the online only xbox live games? The Nintendo switch would be in trouble too.

This crosses so many channels... Smart TVs for example, or Car entrainment systems that are controlled by the manufacturer.

What about a Food item that is EXCLUSIVELY sold in one supermarket?

 

[zkadda]

Not really, Android allows for it and has found a way to do so as safely as possible, so it CAN be done.

As safely as possible? Erm, no, that way would be Apple's way. Android is in NO way safe OR secure.

 

[prowlmedia]

Can't get any worse than iOS/iCloud leak of people's private orifice pictures all over the internet.

Well no that was not a LEAK was it... it was 1 or 2 hackers tricking Celebs into revealing their iCloud passwords. They didn't hack, they socially manipulated them.