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First, it clearly harms Psystar because it prevents them from selling an alternative to Apple-made hardware.
How is Psystar prevented from selling boxes running Windows, Linux, or "naked" machines running no OS at all?

I find it interesting that Apple is suing Psystar for a copyright infringement. Apple sued Microsoft using a similar approach for Microsoft's inclusion of the graphical user interface (GUI) in the Windows OS.
I'm not sure what's so 'interesting' about Apple addressing a perceived threat to its IP.

How did that case work out for the geniuses from Cupertino?
You mean how did it work out that MS agreed to continue developing popular software (Internet Explorer and MS Office) for the Mac platform? I think that worked out pretty well for Apple.


Lethal
 
I find it interesting that Apple is suing Psystar for a copyright infringement. Apple sued Microsoft using a similar approach for Microsoft's inclusion of the graphical user interface (GUI) in the Windows OS.

How did that case work out for the geniuses from Cupertino?

I'm curious, what similarities do you see between the Apple v. Microsoft "look and feel" case and the one Apple has filed against Psystar?

I believe the correct answer is "none."

BTW, John Scully is on record as saying that giving (what he thought at the time) was a limited license to Microsoft to use MacOS interface elements was the worst decision he made while he was at Apple.
 
Wow, such a long discussion. I have a better idea. :D Apple should just bring an iMac, and one of the noisy psystar box, and ask the judge, "which one do you want?" :D

It's so funny that people are so into this, yet nobody cares about wireless providers locking their cell phones.
 
Clone

I feel if Apple looses, The Mac stores will take a hit(And so will Mac Buyers) As The Clone Buyers will Use the FREE services offered By the Mac Stores (Mac buyers pay for that service in the price of their Machines and Software).

And most important, It Is STEALING. Just my opinions, I may be Wrong.

John
 
Second, it clearly harms the consumer because it prevents the consumer from installing a legally purchased Macintosh OS on a Dell, Sony or some other Intel-based computer.

And not being able to start your car with a legally purchased screwdriver clearly harms consumers as well.

First of all that probably wouldn't work anyway, due to the fact that Macs use EFI and most PC's use BIOS. Secondly, one of the requirements for using the software is listed right on box, "Macintosh Computer". So it's really only going to harm illiterate consumers, who frankly, probably don't even use computers anyway.

Uh, just because you're able to buy something doesn't mean you have the right to force the manufacture into making it useful in a manner you find more convenient. I mean I could legally purchase microwave popcorn, but since I don't have a microwave, I suppose I'll have to sue Popcorn Brand A into making popcorn that pops in my steamer and it better not be all soggy! I'll be damned if I'm going to go out and actually buy a microwave just because I like that brand of popcorn better.
 
XEROX and Apple

Since you didn't put in the effort to justify your argument, I'll make the assumption that you're probably thinking of something like this apology, the evidence in which contradicts the conclusion.

Umm, did you even read the article? Not sure why you consider it to be an apology. There are several paragraphs of listed differences in the systems. There's also a lot of articles written by others who were around at the time. Try gathering a few facts before you make accusations. Even the people who worked at PARC know that Apple did not copy the work being done there.

Did you realize that even what was at PARC wasn't an original idea. The work at PARC was based on Jeff Raskin's thesis, "A Hardware-Independent Computer Drawing System Using List-Structured Modeling: The Quick-Draw Graphics System" written in 1967. Notice "Quick-Draw"? Same name as the Macs original graphics API. Ya think this thesis had some influence on Bill Atkinson when he wrote the API?

Did you also realize that Apple had already started working on a graphics project before they even went to PARC? Even on the site you linked to there's photos of progress being made starting an entire year before the trip to PARC.

Did you also miss the fact that a lot of the people who worked at PARC later went to Apple to work on the Lisa and then the Macintosh, including Jeff Raskin?
 
Hi,

It wouldn't surprise me if a special interest group with very, very deep pockets was supporting this effort in order to knock Apple down another notch.

s.

Just wondering: In Britain, supporting a lawsuit financially makes you liable, for example if the person/company is ordered to pay for the lawyers of the other side. Would that be the case in the USA as well?
 
Since you didn't put in the effort to justify your argument, I'll make the assumption that you're probably thinking of something like this apology, the evidence in which contradicts the conclusion. To paraphrase: "it totally didn't copy Xerox because we had 1 mouse button and they had 3, we had a menu bar while they had pop-up menus, and we invented resource forks and stuff." In the context of the revolution that was the mouse-driven GUI, such differences are very minor. If A invented a car, then B having seen A's car is still inspired by A even if his car happens to have only 3 wheels.

I don't know why this is rarely mentioned, but Apple actually _paid_ Xerox a significant amount of money for the right to look at their GUI. About ten million dollars in shares for the right to have a good look around and use whatever ideas they could extract from it. That is why Xerox never complained: They had been paid.
 
Just wondering: In Britain, supporting a lawsuit financially makes you liable, for example if the person/company is ordered to pay for the lawyers of the other side. Would that be the case in the USA as well?

Under the American Rule, generally, no. Each party bears its own costs. There are statutory exceptions though, like 17 U.S.C. 505 -- but this is mainly down to the court's discretion. See Fogerty v. Fantasy, Inc.
 
Umm, did you even read the article? Not sure why you consider it to be an apology. There are several paragraphs of listed differences in the systems.
The article is doing what Apple's always been great at doing - highlighting minor tweaks as revolutionary changes. Xerox had proto-windows, icons, menus, pointer, scrollbars, file manager, mouse selection, etc. All of these features require way more original thought than Apple's move to menu bars, one button mice, the irritation that is resource forks, etc. Apple did do dragging right, and much credit to them for it (though I still wish the Save As motion were to drag an icon from an app to a Finder window, a la RISC OS, but I digress).

Try gathering a few facts before you make accusations.
Your language - "mak[ing] accusations" - betrays a strong difference of opinion. I think it's good that Apple built on Xerox's work, because they wouldn't have got so far if they didn't have something great to build on. It's par for the commercial course not to list your sources when developing something, so I guess I shouldn't be too disappointed that firms don't enclose a little "with thanks to" on every product they release. Yet somehow anyone involved in academic scholarship manages it, and, as you hint, much GUI work originated in academia.

The work at PARC was based on Jeff Raskin's thesis, "A Hardware-Independent Computer Drawing System Using List-Structured Modeling: The Quick-Draw Graphics System" written in 1967. Notice "Quick-Draw"? Same name as the Macs original graphics API. Ya think this thesis had some influence on Bill Atkinson when he wrote the API?
Lol, what? The work at PARC was based on PARC snatching up Douglas Engelbart et al. from Stanford's ARC as Stanford, DARPA, etc. got bored with him.

Meanwhile, Raskin's thesis was about manipulation of graphics primitives (so "QuickDraw"'s etymology is more specific and more appropriate than your hand-waving suggests!). While in autobiographies he likes to point with hindsight how important it was that he emphasised interactivity and hinted at on-screen menus, we are nowhere near what Xerox produced. His thesis was vaguely prescient, as any man can be by being sufficiently vague, but lacked concreteness to be influential. Indeed, Raskin had a hate-love relationship with the mouse, a topic for another mindless excursion ;).

Did you also realize that Apple had already started working on a graphics project before they even went to PARC? Even on the site you linked to there's photos of progress being made starting an entire year before the trip to PARC.

The link "Busy being Born" at the bottom? The first shots are conceivably pre-PARC.

As for the sketch app shots: "I think these are perhaps a bit out of sequence, done in early 1980."

As for the sudden change to a mouse/windows UI: "It's tempting to say that the change was caused by the famous Xerox PARC visit, which took place in mid-December 1979, but Bill thinks that the windows predated that, although he can't say for sure." Considering the magnificent change, one would expect to be able to "say for sure" at least whether one's influences were internal or external, though perhaps it's documented somewhere in Apple archives that no-one's opened for decades...

Did you also miss the fact that a lot of the people who worked at PARC later went to Apple to work on the Lisa and then the Macintosh, including Jeff Raskin?
Ah yes, Raskin stopped visiting PARC to prevent "conflicts of interest", autobiography suggests, a year before he recommended that SJ go right back there to have a peek. Anyway, that people went from PARC to Apple only bolsters the argument that SJ was interested in folding knowledge from PARC into Apple's GUI - it was not mere coincidence, surely? ;)

To conclude, Apple did great building without full chain of disclosure and compensation on Xerox (and AT&T - Unix, and IBM - PC). Now let Psystar try to build on Apple, and succeed or fail without hindrance from a paranoid giant.
 
I don't think Apple deserves to win this kind of case. Their OS is nice, but you act as if it's the second coming of Christ, and it's not really that good. Shoot, it's barely better than Windows Vista.

This isn't about what you think of OSX (though I would say that last statement is the most nonsensical thing I've read all year), this is about Psystar profiting from someone else's work illegally. The quality of said work - I mean actual quality, not your opinion spouted as fact - is irrelevant.
 
I don't know why this is rarely mentioned, but Apple actually _paid_ Xerox a significant amount of money for the right to look at their GUI. About ten million dollars in shares for the right to have a good look around and use whatever ideas they could extract from it.
Citation? I don't think anyone's arguing that SJ got to roam around Xerox for free, but I've never read evidence that they paid Xerox for the right to "use whatever ideas they could extract from it". If I pay you to look at some invention you're creating, it doesn't mean I've paid you for the right to lift ideas wholesale from it. And, if you don't see the value of your invention, you might not take action until it's too late. Which, it may be argued, is precisely what happened (1990).

N.B. "Apple also replied that while it might have borrowed ideas from Xerox, ideas were not protected by copyrights, only the way the ideas were expressed." Even Apple's lawyers admitted to borrowing from Xerox, but their tack is that the ideas were sufficiently differently "expressed". In the context of variation in early '80s UIs, orly?
 
This pisses me off. What, exactly is it that Apple claims this company has done that is justifies suing? They sold nothing with Apple's brand name on it.
Re-call the existing hardware?? Why? This is crap.
:apple: = Microsoft syndrome. I am ashamed to be an Apple user.:mad:
 
Travel back 10 years to the powerpc clones.

The only thing the same is the name of the computer company. Different operating system, different platform, completely different emphasis on products and targeted user groups. In fact, one of the reasons companies like Psytar and osx86 projects exist is that Apple has changed so much in the last decade that a good deal of the Mac users who actually were around during the clone days now have a very hard time finding a Mac that fits them.
 
And I don't think it is right that Warner Brothers says I can't sell my pirated copies of Dark Night on the corner of 57ths and Holland blvd.

:rolleyes:

fantastic analogy, because pystar is stealing OSX, making fake motherboards and robbing babies.

:rolleyes:

your analogy fails, (as do all the others similar) for the reason that pystar is purchasing OSX, not photocopying for users. there is no 'pirating' going on.

Here is the rundown:

OSX - legal
hardware - legal
selling both at the same time? here is where it becomes gray.
pre-installing OSX - against EULA

so the real question is simple: are you LEGALLY allowed to advertise a computer (Hardware) as being capable of running OSX?

Apple wants you to think "No!" Should we? I don't know. that information is not owned by Apple. The code to do so is not owned by Apple.

Ah, but they are making money off of this information. again here is the tricky part. Pystar is making money by selling machines with OSX on them. But so is Apple, since each license is legit. Not to mention there is less than zero obligation on Apple's side to support any of this hardware.

In the end it is about control. Control over not the hardware/software but the perception in people's minds about what it means to use a Macintosh. If Pystar sells crappy computers, someone is going to associate that with Apple. and THAT is where the real concern is.
 
You are mistaken. If you have legally purchased the software separately then you are entitled to use it every which way you like with a few restrictions of course.
Which is why Apple officially doesn't sell software, they license it but retain ownership.

The notion is that owning the physical media on which the software is encoded (the Leopard DVD) is different from owning the copy of the software which is stored thereon.

US Copyright law states that the copyright holder's exclusive rights against modification and duplication do not extend to duplications and modifications performed by the owner of a copy, made as necessary steps to running that software on any computer.

It's because of the supposed distinction between owning the media on which the copy resides, versus owning the copy itself, that arguably gives Apple the ability to retain exclusive rights to dictate terms for such activities, making all Hackintoshes theoretically illegal.
 
The same thing happened to IBM, and this was how we ended up with PC clones.

As far as I'm concerned, and I know I'm going to get in big trouble for saying this - being a big Mac fan and user for almost a decade now..

I don't think Apple deserves to win this kind of case. Their OS is nice, but you act as if it's the second coming of Christ, and it's not really that good. Shoot, it's barely better than Windows Vista.

+1
Can't agree more.
Mac fans must realize that anything Apple is not their relative. It's just another PC and stop being so paranoid.
Competition is a good thing.
 
Please read the decision

How on earth do you get that from Kodak? That's simply incorrect.

A good chunk of the decision revolves around the issue of market share.

Robert Lande among others have been quite critical about the Supreme Court's decision in Kodak because of the market place issue.

Please read the Court's actual decision.
 
Even if they try the whole antitrust thing, Psystar does not have a case because they screwed up. If they were just selling computers with a copy of OS X that could have OSX installed one them then they wouldn't be in court. Then they went and installed OSX and sold the computers, which is a violation of EULA which they had a chance of defeating in court because the precedents with regards to enforceability of EULAs have been murky at best. Note that Apple did not sue them when they were just doing this. Probably because they did not want to get into a battle over EULA because the outcome was uncertain.

But then Psystar made their mistake and sealed their fate. They started distributing modified versions of OSX to their customers. Note that once they started doing this, Apple filed the lawsuit, not one minute before. Selling a modified version of someone else's software is against the law. This has nothing to do with antitrust or EULA. This has to do with copyright infringement which is what Psystar did and what Apple sued for. I'll be surprised if the judge even lets the defense talk about antitrust, because even if Apple has a monopoly, it doesn't justify copyright infringement. That's like a bank robber arguing that the bank has a monopoly and deserved to get robbed.
 
fantastic analogy, because pystar is stealing OSX, making fake motherboards and robbing babies.

:rolleyes:

your analogy fails, (as do all the others similar) for the reason that pystar is purchasing OSX, not photocopying for users. there is no 'pirating' going on.

Here is the rundown:

OSX - legal
hardware - legal
selling both at the same time? here is where it becomes gray.
pre-installing OSX - against EULA

so the real question is simple: are you LEGALLY allowed to advertise a computer (Hardware) as being capable of running OSX?

Apple wants you to think "No!" Should we? I don't know. that information is not owned by Apple. The code to do so is not owned by Apple.

Ah, but they are making money off of this information. again here is the tricky part. Pystar is making money by selling machines with OSX on them. But so is Apple, since each license is legit. Not to mention there is less than zero obligation on Apple's side to support any of this hardware.

In the end it is about control. Control over not the hardware/software but the perception in people's minds about what it means to use a Macintosh. If Pystar sells crappy computers, someone is going to associate that with Apple. and THAT is where the real concern is.

Finally someone who gets it. This will be an interesting case because it will challenge EULAs and challenge the software ownership question. If I buy OSX and stick it on some random piece of hardware am I now open to a lawsuit from Apple? But wait, I legally purchased OSX. I also legally purchased my hardware. When Apple restricts what I can do with something I purchased legally, is that legal? This is where the shades of grey come in.

Oh, and of course Apple won't support any hackintosh and no one should expect them to.

And BTW, this is exactly the question that the FOSS software community has answered with OSS. They aren't against charging for software, but they are against restricting your rights on what you can do with the software once you have it. It just so happens that the only way to guarantee that you are not restricted is to also have the source code in your possession. This logic led to the creation of the GPL.
 
And not being able to start your car with a legally purchased screwdriver clearly harms consumers as well.
The above situation is not analogous to buying legally and using the Mac OS in a manner the user sees fit.

First of all that probably wouldn't work anyway, due to the fact that Macs use EFI and most PC's use BIOS. Secondly, one of the requirements for using the software is listed right on box, "Macintosh Computer". So it's really only going to harm illiterate consumers, who frankly, probably don't even use computers anyway.
Actually several videos and DIY instructions have been posted to show you can port the Mac OS for a Dell, Sony, etc. Apple's lawyers send letters to whomever posted the video or DIY instructions. There does not appear to be a restraint of trade. However, Apple's actions (sending letters from lawyers) prevents consumers from using their legally purchased Mac OS.

Further, Apple's action create a deadweight loss because Apple's lawyers prevent technological innovation in the marketplace.

Uh, just because you're able to buy something doesn't mean you have the right to force the manufacture into making it useful in a manner you find more convenient. I mean I could legally purchase microwave popcorn, but since I don't have a microwave, I suppose I'll have to sue Popcorn Brand A into making popcorn that pops in my steamer and it better not be all soggy! I'll be damned if I'm going to go out and actually buy a microwave just because I like that brand of popcorn better.
Again, the analogy does not fit. Let's say you bought a bag of microwave popcorn. The manufacturer threatens you with a lawsuit if you use a stove, a skillet, and a lid to pop the microwave popcorn instead of a microwave oven.

That is the correct analogy to the antitrust matter between Apple and Psystar. If you can only pop microwave popcorn in a microwave oven, then does this relationship represent a tying arrangement? Case law, as I have written previously, is mixed.

If Jiffy Pop or Al's Pop in a Bag threaten to sue you if you pop the bag of microwave popcorn in something other than a microwave oven because you are violating Jiffy Pop or Al's agreement that requires you to only use a microwave oven to cook their respective bag of popcorn, then does the relationship represent an attempt to monopolize? Case law is clearer in this matter. In all likelihood, Jiffy Pop or Al's will be found guilty.
 
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