Psystar to Challenge Mac OS X EULA?

[Don.Key]

I don't understand how anyone can want Psystar to win here.

OS X has built up a fantastic reputation for being reliable, feature rich and incredibly easy to maintain. If Psystar does win the battle, then as people have already commented, others will follow! This means that there will be a bunch of people who want a high spec computer running OS X for the same price of a Mac Mini and they will be buying the Psystar or equivalent computer.

Nonsence, Psystar is nowhere near "high spec", all they offer are few expantion options.

However, the Psystar computer will have a few problems in my eyes:

- It's a hackintosh - there has to be stability issues there.
- It's running hardware it wasn't designed to run.
- It'll be impossible to upgrade (to 10.6 for example) without you're a hackintosh geek.
- Software update wont work nice and seamlessly for graphics drivers etc. In fact, how will you get OS X computable drivers for third party graphics cards?

Most of all though, it's the fact that Macs work because they run on Apple's hardware and the understanding between the software the hardware it runs on is great. Apple's products are still of great quality compared the the PC market in general today. Almost all PCs use the cheapest components available simply to boast a seemingly impressive spec sheet.

I can just see that if this takes off, it'll take down Apple's reputation - and who on here would want that to happen?

Reputation with whom??? Do you think Windows users really care about "Apple Reputation"? Trust me, they think Apple is CRAP. I have had some funny discussions with Windows / Linux buddies of mine and they are not convinced at all with OSX. Their choice, it is a free world.

Reputation with existing apple users will not suffer greatly, if at all.

Plus, you know, Mac Pro comes with PCI-E slots as well, and I can stuck some card in there which will crash OSX.

 

[FaithMac]

There's the rub, though - it seems like Psystar haven't actually produced anything themselves: They're apparently using the EFI Emulator without permission of the Author and directing users to the insanelymac forum for support!

Didnt know that... (i havent read all 400 odd posts..!! so srry if its mentioned in them..)
Its almost like they dont want to spend any money putting anything into place before they know the outcome of the case lol...!!

Thats bad... Surely they could have at least licensed the EFI em from the Author.. even if it they paid him on per unit sold..(so no initial outlay) and how hard would it be to come up with instructions to install it..!!!

 

[Locker]

Reputation with whom??? Do you think Windows users really care about "Apple Reputation"?

I certainly don't think that Windows users will care. What I'm referring to is the brand image, the stability, the quality, the way it 'just works' - all of the reasons that attract people over to OS X. The fact is that most new OS X customers will be converts, as almost everyone is brought into the computing world through Microsoft's eyes. Therefore, if OS X is made to look pretty make-shift by these third party offerings it could dent its image - and no Apple fans would want that would they?

 

[Rendwich]

Thank You

Antec P182 (SE) is a great and very popular case. One of it's features are that hard drives and PSU are compartmentalized so the higher temperature of these component won't adversely affect the cooling of the CPU. This means that the case is designed for two major airflows (The air intakes are protected by washable dust filters).

The looks are indeed subjective but the build quality is not. I built my system using the black metal P182 and it is very very good.

Non-Apple hardware is not crap by definition.

Thank you for inserting some information into this Apple circle-jerk. It's incredible to me that someone can see a picture of a case with a *huge open hole* on the very top, the absolute smartest place for anyone who knows that *heat rises*, and say "That thing will get too hot!"

It's as if everyone who doesn't work for Apple is a complete retard, they manufacture literal millions of computer cases which all burn up.

Apple has succeed under Steve Jobs. Not succeeded as a business, but succeeded as a cult. This thread is unarguable evidence. The deprogrammers are outnumbered 10-1. These cultists manufacture "facts" out of whole cloth to justify their HEFTY tithes to Steve Jesus.

Apple has made some fantastic products. Truly remarkable. The lamp-style iMac, the eMac, the SE, the iPod, the Newton, the Cube, the ][+, the 12" Powerbook, the B&W G3. It's unfortunate that, at this particular time, they are making truly ridiculous computers. Computers which are overpriced, underpowered, unexpandable, unattractive (with rare exceptions) and unreliable.This was not always the case, but it is presently the case.

The only way Apple can support this anti-business model is by moving from a business to a cult. Cultists do things which are self-destructive, by definition. That's why they're cultists instead of "devout believers". When people angrily defend paying double the market price for their computer, that is self-destructive.

A Mac Pro with a single-quad core CPU, 750GB HD and a GeForce 8800 GPU is $2700.
A virutally identical Open Pro is $1750.

The Open costs $950 less. A *thirty-three percent* discount. If you're willing to take a slower CPU and a slightly worse GPU, you can get your Open Pro price down to $1300.

Will the cultists please drink the purple Kool-Aid and lay down quietly? Steve Jesus will restore you with his Time Machine.

If you purchased Applecare.

 

[mrwizardno2]

I think it's kind of a neat idea, yes, but they're going about it wrong. Like the person said above, not licensing the EFI emulator, etc.

Honestly, I would rather build the machine myself and install OSX86 on it than buy it already done - that's the majority of the fun, figuring everything out and getting it all working...

I don't see this as something for people looking to switch, as there is simply no support. I can't imagine someone would want a hacked together machine - unless that's what they expect. If I bought it, I would sure as hell not expect to be getting any kind of support out of it - it's common sense. I think this is aimed not at the typical Windows idiot / Apple convert, but at maybe more of the enthusiast seeking "more for less"

 

[Ed91]

To all those saying Apple can crush Psystar, as they don't have the money to fight the legal battle, is it not possible that hardware companies with a vested interest (dell etc) may help fund Psystar's defence?

Just a thought.. I know nothing about these things though, so if it'll never happen feel free to correct my thinking.

Ed

 

[headfuzz]

To all those saying Apple can crush Psystar, as they don't have the money to fight the legal battle, is it not possible that hardware companies with a vested interest (dell etc) may help fund Psystar's defence?

Just a thought.. I know nothing about these things though, so if it'll never happen feel free to correct my thinking.

Ed

If Dell/HP/any other given OEM bankroll a successful defence by Psystar to discredit the legal implications of Apple's EULA then where does that leave Dell's, HP's, Microsoft's, Adobe's or any other software vendor or OEM's EULAs?

Unenforcable in a court of law.

Hence, if anything, OEM's and software vendors will side with Apple; not that they'd need to really, as Apple's litigation team has a few quid to spare.

 

[vaguely]

Note that the "EU" in "EULA" stands for "end user". End users are allowed to do lots of things that that companies can't do. ....<nip>

From Apple's POV the name of the game is stopping people selling non-Mac Mac's. The EULA is a red herring - the point is that there are other European competition laws (ha!) that give Apple recourse, including a whole raft of brand protection laws.

 

[137489]

While I posted in the last rumor thread on this, that this does not phase me. i have a few points of view:

1. Good luck to anyone who goes this route - as it is with windows configuration on a home-built or 3rd party machine, it is a nightmare with having to find all the drivers, configure everything and get it working, etc.

2. I have a feeling if Apple did allow installation on non-mac hardware they would see a major boost in their Mac OS X sales, but a major decline on hardware sales.

3. If I read correctly on all the posts on other threads - the illegal part is this company was using apple parts and OS X to basically sell an apple machine without the apple logo and support. it would be like me buying PC parts and saying - I am selling a cheap HP or DELL.

4. support is the main thing - who is going to support you on this? at least with apple, there are stores in almost every major city that you can pop over to the genious bar for help and also online support is great as far as I have heard.

5. I do think it is time for apple to come out with an in-between machine. Mac Mini was too low for my specs, I did not need a real expensive Imac or mac pro (atleast not yet) - so the midrange for me was a macbook.

Looking forward to receiving it today.

 

[Much Ado]

I'm did not buy Apple hardware in the past because for it's design, but because (only) it did run MacOS operating system. If there were alternatives to Apple hardware, i would not hesisate to buy that.

In the past i had two UMAX Pulsar clones. These were great machines.

Exactly!

 

[takao]

(And I think the Family Pack is different, because it contains only one DVD, and it is only the EULA that allows you to install it on five computers, so you cannot ignore the EULA).

actually not really .. since the restriction to install on only one computer with the normal one is only in the EULA it is perfectly legal to install on as many computers as you want no matter what (for a private person)

at least in a few legislations around here where you don't own "a license to install" but you own "a copy of the software"



general point in EULA discussions: it's heavily based on the country you are dealing and how they define _when_ the contract is made

in germany,switzerland, austria the contract is made at the point of sale when you hand over the cash ... having an EULA inside the box is simply not valid ... same when you then install the software from the disc because at the point of sale the contract was not visible
and it already has been ruled (at least in austria) that having a link to an EULA on the box doesn't count

in retail for an eula to be legal it would require to be printed on the outside of the box ... which never will happen

exception where they are valid: software you download where you pay after you are presented with the EULA (so the EULAs for the apple updates are valid but the original one is not)

that said even if the EULA is not void it can be still ruled that way by a judge if it takes away consumer rights ... which might ironically include the right for making private copies in some legislations


companies are of course a different matter like in this case with Psystar ... though i guess the problem here will be more the "preinstalled" thing .. if they just would be selling sealed retail boxes of leopard + computers they would get the free card again

personally i hope this sends apple a sign that they should offer more competitive products in terms of hardware .. especially at the lower end and terms of form factors ...

Apple wake up ... there are very likely hundreds thousands of people who want a "normal" desktop from you...

 

[FaithMac]

From Apple's POV the name of the game is stopping people selling non-Mac Mac's. The EULA is a red herring - the point is that there are other European competition laws (ha!) that give Apple recourse, including a whole raft of brand protection laws.

mm Not really.. i dont think Apple have any way of stopping people selling "non-mac Mac's".. I think that all went out the window when they started using Intel chips and their computers basically became a PC.

If a company sells a computer thats capable of running Windows / OSX etc, i dont see how they can do anything about that at all..!!

 

[bokdol]

The only way Apple can support this anti-business model is by moving from a business to a cult. Cultists do things which are self-destructive, by definition. That's why they're cultists instead of "devout believers". When people angrily defend paying double the market price for their computer, that is self-destructive.

A Mac Pro with a single-quad core CPU, 750GB HD and a GeForce 8800 GPU is $2700.
A virutally identical Open Pro is $1750.

The Open costs $950 less. A *thirty-three percent* discount. If you're willing to take a slower CPU and a slightly worse GPU, you can get your Open Pro price down to $1300.

Will the cultists please drink the purple Kool-Aid and lay down quietly? Steve Jesus will restore you with his Time Machine.

If you purchased Applecare.

sorry there is one major flaw to your open computer argument. the mac pro is essentially a work station to do heavy duty things. that while open may be able to do. but will not have the capability to match. lets see if you can put up to 32 gb ram in that(meaning find a mother board that handles 32 gb of ram) and drop in a quad core xeon then lets see where your price point then becomes.

what your doing is comparing a high spec comsumer machine to a work station and saying see it is the same. but not under standing that there are major differences that and that people use and need these machine to do different things. just cause one test says it can spec the same does not mean it will run the same. and this is not an argument for macs. its an argument for computers. look at and xeon workstation that other companies sell there is a reason why they cost more then a consumer desktop. and a reason why people buy servers and workstation.

 

[ma2ha3]

small company cannot win against apple in such a case.
even if you win every court cases, you still lose, because all the cost of lawyers will put stress on the small business.

 

[FaithMac]

small company cannot win against apple in such a case.
even if you win every court cases, you still lose, because all the cost of lawyers will put stress on the small business.

Perphaps they're not even interested in going/winning the court case..

When your a small startup like this.. Publicity of most sorts has got to be good..!!

Anyone know the background of the owners of Psystar...????

 

[mccldwll]

Apple has succeed under Steve Jobs. Not succeeded as a business, but succeeded as a cult. This thread is unarguable evidence. The deprogrammers are outnumbered 10-1. These cultists manufacture "facts" out of whole cloth to justify their HEFTY tithes to Steve Jesus.

.........

The only way Apple can support this anti-business model is by moving from a business to a cult. Cultists do things which are self-destructive, by definition. That's why they're cultists instead of "devout believers". When people angrily defend paying double the market price for their computer, that is self-destructive.

.......

Will the cultists please drink the purple Kool-Aid and lay down quietly? Steve Jesus will restore you with his Time Machine.

If you purchased Applecare.

Suggest everyone pay close attention to newbies and other somewhat recent joiners. Many of these have absolutely nothing good to say about apple products. Why are they here? Many are from paid to post spin groups like Enderle or Dvorak and their minions, and some are working for hedge funds-- creating arguments which can be picked up and reposted on financial sites and elsewhere. This is a very big money game where small stock price movements can result in $$$$ gains in the options market. With so much at stake, they leave no stone unturned. The intent is to move the price of apple stock, which has experienced extreme volatility since January. Many of these clowns started showing up all over the place in January. JMHO

 

[Bobby1984s]

If they did win this would force a need to make a OS installation disc for full install and upgraded only. There would also be havoc with non supported 3rd party hardware and most likely 300.00 CD keys but doesn't this sound like another company...

 

[Shasterball]

What kills me about this forum is that people make sweeping statements with such conviction in area of which they clearly know NOTHING about. People here are making strong statements about the law, EULA's, what Apple can do, what Microsoft can do -- and yet they are 99%+ WRONG and based on nothing but what people can surf off the web in a 5 minute Google search. What's the point of these 400 posts?

So sad...

 

[baleensavage]

The way I see it, there are two possible outcomes.

Psystar wins - So a lengthy cat and mouse battle begins in which Apple breaks their installation with every update and then Psystar updates to keep up, which will eventually drive Psystar t o fail like so many others who have tried to make commercial solutions to crack Apple's software (Fairplay anyone).

or

Apple wins and Psystar is no more.

Either way, the only thing Psystar will get is notoriety.

 

[FaithMac]

If they did win this would force a need to make a OS installation disc for full install and upgraded only. There would also be havoc with non supported 3rd party hardware and most likely 300.00 CD keys but doesn't this sound like another company...

yes.. but they would be like another apple.. couple of diff motherboards, limited gfx cards, sound cards.. etc... easier to ensure working drivers etc... non supported 3rd party isnt going to be an issue.. because it is exxactly that "non- supported." !

 

[Padraig]

Suggest everyone pay close attention to newbies and other somewhat recent joiners. Many of these have absolutely nothing good to say about apple products. Why are they here? Many are from paid to post spin groups like Enderle or Dvorak and their minions, and some are working for hedge funds-- creating arguments which can be picked up and reposted on financial sites and elsewhere. This is a very big money game where small stock price movements can result in $$$$ gains in the options market. With so much at stake, they leave no stone unturned. The intent is to move the price of apple stock, which has experienced extreme volatility since January. Many of these clowns started showing up all over the place in January. JMHO

How's the kool-aid.

 

[FaithMac]

The way I see it, there are two possible outcomes.

Psystar wins - So a lengthy cat and mouse battle begins in which Apple breaks their installation with every update and then Psystar updates to keep up, which will eventually drive Psystar t o fail like so many others who have tried to make commercial solutions to crack Apple's software (Fairplay anyone).

or

Apple wins and Psystar is no more.

Either way, the only thing Psystar will get is notoriety.

Yes but if Psystar win .(still not convinced they actually want to win anything..) .. then Apple cant go out of there way to make OSX software not work on competitors hardware as wouldnt that be kinda of anti-competitive....?? ..
Plus to what degree can they change their OS..?? its still got to run on the majority or Intel Macs around at the mo.. i dont think they could suddenly just say from now on their os will only work on there brand new machines which have some special feature thats other companies are unable to replicate for whatever reasons... how pi$$ed off would current users be..!

i mean how much difference is there between a motherboard in a mac and a motherboard you can buy in the shops for use in a PC....?? (i ask because i dont know..!!) ..

 

[1mike]

bad quote

[Robert] also said Psystar believes Apple's prohibition against third-party installations might not hold up in court: "What if Honda said that, after you buy their car, you could only drive it on the roads they said you could?"


The Difference here is that Honda DIDN'T say anything before hand while apple clearly states that you can't use the OS on other hardware BEFORE you buy. Horrible example Robert.



Mike
http://www.letterperspectives.com

 

[mccldwll]

How's the kool-aid.

Wouldn't know. Never touch the stuff.

 

[FaithMac]

Suggest everyone pay close attention to newbies and other somewhat recent joiners. Many of these have absolutely nothing good to say about apple products. Why are they here? Many are from paid to post spin groups like Enderle or Dvorak and their minions, and some are working for hedge funds-- creating arguments which can be picked up and reposted on financial sites and elsewhere. This is a very big money game where small stock price movements can result in $$$$ gains in the options market. With so much at stake, they leave no stone unturned. The intent is to move the price of apple stock, which has experienced extreme volatility since January. Many of these clowns started showing up all over the place in January. JMHO

^haha^ sorry Jesus...!!

though shall not speak negatively in anyway of Apple.....