Pulse Oximetry Company Masimo Wants the Apple Watch Series 6 Banned

[One2Grift]

I love how most people in this thread completely ignores this post that actually have the links to the relevant information to the case and just blurt out unconditional support for Apple.

I just wish you vocal anti Apple people would just take a moment to read about patent infringement/IP litigation statistics.
I just wish anti Apple people who come to an Apple board to scold Apple product fans for being Apple product fans would consider that statement in and of itself. the laughable moral high ground attempted becomes even more laughable.

Big news! A company that less than 2 weeks ago released a wearable medical device releases a patent infringement case on the day of Apple's quarter end, the biggest company in the US that already very widely in the news almost daily. Now I'm sure the plaintiffs are as pure as the driven snow. Sure a lawsuit against specifically Apple, specifically against a huge growing wearable segment of which Apple is the market leader, and specifically on that company's quarter end day. Sure this could provide them with large free media about their company and product. But they say their IP was taken via Apple acquiring former plaintiff employee/s and shockingly it is a story they state in a way that puts their side in a best light. They may even try to sugar coat in front of other media then a judge (gasp!). Of course their motivation is pure and true. Of course Apple and us Apple product fans on an Apple board are just Apple fans blurting out support unconditionally. How can we be on the moral ground like you all?

Up to 6000 American PI cases are filed a year in the US. Many of them are against the biggest companies in the US. Of those that even make it to pretrial, approx 85 to 95 lose at pretrial. Utimately a jury trial then does provide them a bit better than 50% but on appeals about 3 out of 5 are dismissed. But you read a media story about a PI filing. How could it not be the perfect time to tell Apple fans we are just Apple fans.

 

[Krizoitz]

So stealing is ok in your book? I hope you don’t have children.

You realize it’s entirely possible Apple didn’t steal anything right? Masimo has made an accusation, that doesn’t mean it’s true. One can believe Apple hasn’t done anything wrong, and is therefore not stealing.

 

[bollman]

Talk about "moral high ground". Did you even read the linked material or the article?

Masimo filed their complaint in January of 2020, about 3 months after the AW6 was released. I would say that is about the time it would take them to assess if the AW6 infringed on their patents or not.
The news this time was that Masimo has filed with the ITO to ban the import/sale of AW6 until the PTO has concluded their investigation, an investigation Apple has instigated, claiming that Masimo's patents does not cover "new inventions".
Masimo and Apple are not even in the same segment, Masimo has no consumer wearables competing with the AW afaik.

Masimo is no patent troll, they clearly have products, and lots of them, in non-invasive patient monitoring.
Apple's conduct seems highly suspicious in asking for productive meetings to "understand" Masimo's tech and then breaking off talks and hiring away key people.

There sure have been a lot of frivolous cases where patent trolls seek a money grab, but this case seems to have merit, based on what's been released so far.

It is no secret Apple's tactics in these cases is to stall, stall, stall in the hope the patent owner goes away, or the product infringing is so old nobody cares, and the possible damages to be paid are no problem for the world's richest company.

My gripe is that people start defending Apple no matter what, without even reading the basic facts in these articles. There's nothing wrong in liking the products Apple make, or the company itself, but Apple is not the second coming. A healthy dose of scepticism even against your favourite company is recommended.

 

[Krizoitz]

This is the problem that needs addressing. If you pay me to discover something then you got access to the solution. You don't own the solution because all you did was provide resources. Your contribution is the bare minumum and deserves little protection. The idea that some products couldn't exist is absurd. Of course, they could, it would just mean working to ensure that the people who did the work - can take their efforts elsewhere, and now you can have two iPhones. My solution makes the engineers the highest-paid employees.

Again no.
If I hire you to build a house for me, you don’t get to keep the house just because you did the work.
If I hire you to fix my care for me, you don’t get to keep the car.
If I hire you to bake a cake, you don’t get to keep the cake.
When you are hired to produce something you don’t get to keep it. That’s the whole point. The entire reason I am paying you is for the output you produce. If I pay you and you get to keep everything, I get no value, there is no reason for me to pay you, it’s just handing you free money. That’s ridiculous.

But, the people treated the worst right now are the people inventing things.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh man, thanks for that, I needed a good laugh. Wow. Seriously? The worst treated workers? You’ve got to be kidding. “Gosh those poor schlubs making 6-7 figure salaries, with there nice retirement packages and companies competing over them, who get big bonuses for getting their name on a patent sure do have it rough! If only they had it easy as those minimum wage factory workers who can’t take a pee break.”

You are either completely trolling or ridiculously uninformed when it comes to the labor situation in America and how well engineers get paid, especially high level ones. You think the people Apple poached from Masimo that are allegedly the ones spilling trade secrets got hired away with bad deals, with chump change?!? You think they are suffering? ????

Wow, just wow.

 

[Krizoitz]

People should read this first...

“Apple allegedly relied on Masimo tech when developing the light-based heart rate sensor used in the Apple Watch, among other technologies.”

Key word being allegedly. That doesn’t mean they did it and it’s not unreasonable to believe Apple will win. People who assume Masimo is correct simply because they claimed it are just as wrong as people who believe Apple is correct simply because they said they didn’t.

 

[Krizoitz]

A civil lawsuit is literally proof of nothing other than a civil lawsuit was filed.

Smartest comment in this entire thread. It should be permanently posted at the top of every article relating to these lawsuits.
Every person who comments should have to type it out before posting in such a thread.

 

[Krizoitz]

Wait, do Patton trolls command armies of sockpuppets?

(I suspect the word you’re looking for is “patents”, but I couldn’t resist a joke about George S Patton trolls.)

No no, Patton trolls are people who show up at Patton Oswalt’s comedy shows and try and heckle him

 

[wackymacky]

Another lawsuit against Apple huh? Seen so many through the years. Everyone goes after the King of the Hill looking for anything. The only ones getting anything are the lawyers folks so you’re only hurting yourselves.

In most cases against Apple is is clearly patent trolls. Masimo however, although did not invent pulse oximetry, did develop the current main way pulse oximetry works, with other companies that manufacture medical devices paying a royalty. I’m not a lawyer and don’t think they can ban the watch, but it’s understandable they have sour grapes over this.

 

[wackymacky]

• Apple's product infringes on our medical technology and threatens our business.
• Apple's product isn't a viable medical device.

Choose one.

I know of a number of medical specialists that are happy for patients as part of their in community care monitoring to us an Apple Watch for their COPD and atrial fibrillation etc. (which surprised me)

Masimo would rather you buy one of their devices (or one they get a royalty from)

Masimo - Home

Masimo Personal Health

www.masimopersonalhealth.com

 

[One2Grift]

In most cases against Apple is is clearly patent trolls. Masimo however, although did not invent pulse oximetry, did develop the current main way pulse oximetry works, with other companies that manufacture medical devices paying a royalty. I’m not a lawyer and don’t think they can ban the watch, but it’s understandable they have sour grapes over this.

WackyMacky, you could be right. anything against Apple right now is suspicious (plaintiff’s Bluetooth wearable product just released then they drop a lawsuit at Q3 end — timing is highly suspicious). A lawsuit against Apple right now is probably massive free media. That is big motivation in and of itself. And as this has already made the media rounds with plaintiff’s name and product, plaintiff’s already have a big win. But given all that, it still doesn’t out of hand mean plaintiff is wrong.

Right after the article came up I went and read up on PI filed cases. I learned the big majority are settled without any adjudication of who is right. Reason most given was it’s quickest, easiest with an outcome that is in control for all parties. It is likely cheaper to settle too as an unlikely win by plaintiff would likely go to appeals — that’s years to see through.
Plaintiff or Apple may see benefit in taking it to the end but not likely according to stats.
Regardless, the S6 and coming S7 O2 feature and watches themselves aren’t going anywhere (except off the shelves into buyers pockets). The anti Apple crowd desperately wants them stopped and notes O2 can be shutoff with an update. None of that will happen. So for Apple fans on MR? it’s yet another win over the anti Apple hysterical. I do love those wins…?

 

[One2Grift]

You realize it’s entirely possible Apple didn’t steal anything right? Masimo has made an accusation, that doesn’t mean it’s true. One can believe Apple hasn’t done anything wrong, and is therefore not stealing.

Kriz, that was a good response to an Anti Apple hysterical who said “So stealing is ok in your book? I hope you don’t have children.”

My response would Not even have been as thoughtful or eloquent regarding the twisted moralistic relativity of the poster. A poster who doesn’t or can’t see the irony with his very presence here on an Apple fan site.

 

[Crowbot]

It hasn't been noted in previous posts but Apple hired the CMO of Masimo back in 2014.

Apple Hires Chief Medical Officer From Pulse Oximetry Company Masimo, Possibly for iWatch Team

Over the course of the last year, Apple has made several hires from the medical and sensor field, presumably to bolster the team of experts working...

www.macrumors.com

With pulse oximeters, the magic is not in the hardware but in the firmware that detects and analyzes the pulse waveform. If Apple used Masimo's algorithms then there may be a problem.

 

[kiranmk2]

If you're asking about the Apple Watch, yes, they are. I've compared to my medically registered pulse/ox device and it's neck and neck on the readings. If yours is saying 98 most of the time, it's probably that your readings are just that level when it's checking.

FWIW, I have a rare respiratory disorder and I've often had it dipping down into the low 90s, even upper 80s. So, it will register lower readings.

I'm glad your AW6 is similar to your medical grade device. However, the main benefit of medical grade devices is that every device that is produced should give the same results within a very tight tolerance. It may be that most AW6 models would give the same result or that maybe even all AW6 modals do, but without certification there is no guarantee. As the AW6 is a consumer device I doubt Apple would go through the time and expense (and higher component costs) to get certification because I don't think anyone would take medical action based on an AW pulse oximetry result. The AW may make you go and see a doctor / go to hospital, but no doctor would give you oxygen / drugs without using a medical grade device to assess you.

The £15/$20 pulse oximeters you can get from Amazon probably use the same components as the high grade Massimo devices but, like CPUs, even components such as LEDs and PDs are binned according to their specifications with medical grade devices likely getting the ones with least deviation from the average and consumer devices getting the rest. It may well be that a consumer grade unit is as accurate as a medical grade device, but when the difference between being ok and oxygen poor is as little as 1-2% would you want a doctor sticking a tube down your nose and admitting you based on a $20 part?

 

[Crowbot]

I'm glad your AW6 is similar to your medical grade device. However, the main benefit of medical grade devices is that every device that is produced should give the same results within a very tight tolerance. It may be that most AW6 models would give the same result or that maybe even all AW6 modals do, but without certification there is no guarantee. As the AW6 is a consumer device I doubt Apple would go through the time and expense (and higher component costs) to get certification because I don't think anyone would take medical action based on an AW pulse oximetry result. The AW may make you go and see a doctor / go to hospital, but no doctor would give you oxygen / drugs without using a medical grade device to assess you.

The £15/$20 pulse oximeters you can get from Amazon probably use the same components as the high grade Massimo devices but, like CPUs, even components such as LEDs and PDs are binned according to their specifications with medical grade devices likely getting the ones with least deviation from the average and consumer devices getting the rest. It may well be that a consumer grade unit is as accurate as a medical grade device, but when the difference between being ok and oxygen poor is as little as 1-2% would you want a doctor sticking a tube down your nose and admitting you based on a $20 part?

Most pulse oximeter probes use the transmissive method (the LED opposes the sensor) while the Apple Watch uses the reflective method (the light bounces back to the sensor), which is almost always less accurate. But it's good enough to get reasonable numbers. It's the measurement algorithms that make the difference with the more expensive units.

I'm sure (well not really) that Apple uses high quality components in the AW.

Even medical grade systems have an error of up to 4%. Docs don't make decisions based on a 2% variance.

 

[justperry]

Key word being allegedly. That doesn’t mean they did it and it’s not unreasonable to believe Apple will win. People who assume Masimo is correct simply because they claimed it are just as wrong as people who believe Apple is correct simply because they said they didn’t.

I just pointed out there's more to the story, some stand behind Apple unconditionally, which, in my opinion, is totally wrong.

 

[dojoman]

Masimo market cap of $13.4B and 2020 revenue of $1.144B... not exactly small potatoes

Really? What's the market cap of Apple? Still a small potato.

 

[Rocko99991]

If you're asking about the Apple Watch, yes, they are. I've compared to my medically registered pulse/ox device and it's neck and neck on the readings. If yours is saying 98 most of the time, it's probably that your readings are just that level when it's checking.

FWIW, I have a rare respiratory disorder and I've often had it dipping down into the low 90s, even upper 80s. So, it will register lower readings.

Ah, that is good to know it's working as it should. Are your medical devices designed to read from your fingers or wrist?

 

[One2Grift]

Really? What's the market cap of Apple? Still a small potato.

Since nobody answered, I'll actually be happy to (slow night). Apple is currently just short of 2.3 trillion dollars using a outstanding shares calculation of 16.9 billion and approximately 137(USD) stock price (the market cap could be as low as 2.1 to 2.2 trillion if company stock buyback for 2021 is complete).
If some analysts consensus target price of 159 stock price is correct, Apple could reach 2.5 to 2.6 trillion market cap by earnings release at the end of July or iPhone 13 release. A very small minority of analysts believe Apple could see 3 trillion market cap by 2022. A very small minority of analysts believe Apple could fall to 1.6 trillion market cap(target price in the 90s).

Why is Apple the largest and most successful company?
Apple has TTM (trailing twelve months) shocking revenue total of nearly a third of a trillion dollars (revenue is sum of all sales, not profit). Biggest revenue categories(in order): iPhones, Services(App Store, AC+, Music etc), Mac, Wearables-Hearables-Accessories(like Services a ++ growing category). IPads are Apple's officially smallest announced category of about 32 billion TTM.
Apple has TTM pre tax profit of 88 billion. Biggest (estimated) profit margin category: Services.
Analyst evaluation of Apple's success: Supply chain excellence, brand name recognition for quality and ease of use, management.

Microsoft is the second largest and most successful company at 2.05 trillion market cap. It has TTM revenue of 160 Billion, approximately half of Apple's revenue. However, Microsoft has shares outstanding of 7.5 billion, well under half of Apple's float and a stock price double at 274. It also has a very healthy pre tax profit margin.
Microsoft stock is valued(in the short term -- long term is always an unknown) greater than Apple's due to 1. Microsoft generates most revenue from categories software, cloud business, services. All of these categories are expected to grow at a faster rate then Apple's majority of business that comes from smartphone-computer-wearable hardware sales (though a very small minority of analysts believe Apple has a significantly under calculation in stock value). The general rule of thumb "value rating" is PE (price to earnings) or FPE (forward price to earnings -- calculated with, I believe, analyst half year coming consensus estimate earnings along with existing previous half year earnings). Microsoft has a PE 20% higher than Apple signifying Microsoft stock valuation has a notably expected faster growth rate than Apple. But it could also mean Microsoft is overvalued/overpriced (just as Apple could be). That's the crapshoot of the stock market.

 

[Arceus1234]

I don’t see this happening. Do other devices like Fitbits not infringe on these patents even though they also use light to measure blood O2 levels?

 

[Hajj.david]

Are they even accurate at all? Seems to be 98% all the time.

That means you have normal, healthy functioning lungs etc.

 

[wackymacky]

It hasn't been noted in previous posts but Apple hired the CMO of Masimo back in 2014.

Apple Hires Chief Medical Officer From Pulse Oximetry Company Masimo, Possibly for iWatch Team

Over the course of the last year, Apple has made several hires from the medical and sensor field, presumably to bolster the team of experts working...

www.macrumors.com

With pulse oximeters, the magic is not in the hardware but in the firmware that detects and analyzes the pulse waveform. If Apple used Masimo's algorithms then there may be a problem.

Yes, what is document in the the court filings is:

“After what Masimo viewed as "productive" meetings, Apple poached Masimo's chief medical officer, Michael O'Reilly, for vice president of its health technology efforts. O'Reilly was privy to "extremely sensitive" information, including information about mobile medical products and applications, wellness applications, clinical data-gathering and analytics, and other technology of Masimo”

it seems it is very personal against Apple.

 

[User 6502]

Yeahhhhh! Good luck with that. That’s not going to work. Already got my series 6 AW. Definitely will be ordering series 7 AW.

Wasting their time, energy, resources.

Case Dismissed!

It worked.

Case dismissed!

 

[seek3r]

It worked.

Case dismissed!

Yes and no, Apple will likely appeal, and also probably won't have an outright ban show up right away from USITC because it'll be held off pending the appeals.... but, also, Masimo is definitely not looking for an actual ban on watches, they're looking for a payout/licensing fees. Apple will just pay them if they truly lose on appeal, they have the money. There wont be a sudden blanket unavailability of watches

 

[User 6502]

Yes and no, Apple will likely appeal, and also probably won't have an outright ban show up right away from USITC because it'll be held off pending the appeals.... but, also, Masimo is definitely not looking for an actual ban on watches, they're looking for a payout/licensing fees. Apple will just pay them if they truly lose on appeal, they have the money. There wont be a sudden blanket unavailability of watches

As you said Masimo wasn’t actually after an Apple Watch ban, but payout/licensing fees, which now is almost guaranteed it will get. Hence it has reached its objective, or in other words ‘it worked!’

 

[seek3r]

As you said Masimo wasn’t actually after an Apple Watch ban, but payout/licensing fees, which now is almost guaranteed it will get. Hence it has reached its objective, or in other words ‘it worked!’

eh fair enough. We'll see if they keep the ruling on appeal though