QMS VRR Support Coming to Apple TV 4K to Prevent Blackouts When Changing Content Frame Rate [Updated]

[Tony_YYZ]

This is great news. I really loathe the black screen pause when switching video modes. The built in Android apps in my Sony TV don’t do this and it was a jarring experience when using my Apple TV for the first few times. I hope this fixes my experience using the 2nd gen ATV4k.

 

[fwmireault]

I am amused with the idea that a couple seconds' worth of blackness when switching videos is a problem that we as a society decided it's worth it to solve. Ever onward!

Granted it’s a minor annoyance, but Apple constantly corrects minor bugs with software updates, and the detailed attention to the user experience is what makes their platforms great. If the technology exists to eliminate the blackouts, why Apple should not go forward with this? I don’t get the point of your comment

 

[w5jck]

I am amused with the idea that a couple seconds' worth of blackness when switching videos is a problem that we as a society decided it's worth it to solve. Ever onward!

I'm amused that you drink so much Apple juice that you are willing to forgive any stupid thing Apple does. Ever backward! BTW, my Fire TV Cube 3rd gen, and the 2nd gen before it, never had this issue. Apple could fix it, but as long as fans like you allow them to turn out the buggiest firmware and software possible, they won't even try very hard.

 

[chrono1081]

Curious what tv do you have? My Lg cx did this until i turned that “feature” off.

Mine is an LG 49Nano85UNA, what feature did you turn off?

 

[crw]

I'm amused that you drink so much Apple juice that you are willing to forgive any stupid thing Apple does. Ever backward! BTW, my Fire TV Cube 3rd gen, and the 2nd gen before it, never had this issue. Apple could fix it, but as long as fans like you allow them to turn out the buggiest firmware and software possible, they won't even try very hard.

That is likely because your Fire TV is just sending out a locked 60 fps so the TV never has to see a different frame rate. This is fine for North America TV content but when you are watching a movie or European TV content the Fire TV has to insert extra frames at an uneven pace (e.g. for a movie it will display one frame twice and then the next frame three times) to adjust it to the 60 fps. This causes judder and some people find that it really degrades the quality of the video (though other people aren't bothered by it).

Apple TV can do this to (and in fact defaults to doing this). There is an option to have it lock the output to 60 fps for those that aren't bothered by the judder and would instead rather not have the video blackouts as the TV adjusts to different frame rates. But for those that do not like judder you can change it to output the actual frame rate of the source video.

So what you are describing is not buggy firmware/software but rather a user-selectable option.

 

[BeatCrazy]

I'm amused that you drink so much Apple juice that you are willing to forgive any stupid thing Apple does. Ever backward! BTW, my Fire TV Cube 3rd gen, and the 2nd gen before it, never had this issue. Apple could fix it, but as long as fans like you allow them to turn out the buggiest firmware and software possible, they won't even try very hard.

You probably never had this issue because your Fire TV (et al) are locked to a 60fps output. For my AppleTV, I prefer native 24p frame rate for the actual content, which blanks when it switches back to the 60fps output of the native UI.

 

[Wokis]

According to that site linked, FlatpanelsHD.com,

"Technically QMS is a derivative of VRR so a device with VRR should technically be able to support QMS too (but it is not guaranteed)"

So all things willing, maybe a firmware update could enable it on TVs that "only" have VRR support today.

Would I be so lucky to receive such an update down the line, I might consider switching my A12 ATV into the A15 (though I feel that's a rip) just for this feature.

My TV's signal processor has automatic judder detection, aka it can detect 24fps content when fed from a 60Hz-source and adjust without any black screens. I think it internally refreshes at 120Hz when it's being fed 60, so as long as it catches the pattern it can just send each actual new frame 5 times and it will look correct.

25fps (PAL land..) on the other hand still needs this feature. I use my TV provider's ATV-app which is mostly great but all video feeds (representing channels) are of course 25 or 50 fps while switching between channels toggles a 60 fps UI mode. Lots of black screens.

 

[uptownnyc]

Ooo wonder if this will fix the issue I've been having for years where certain shows will just got black, only once at first, but then it just keeps going black more and more (same video, nothing has changed) until the TV just goes completely black and I have to reboot it.

It's not my cables, it's either my TV or Apple TV but I'm leaning towards ATV because the built in TV apps don't have this issue.

Do you own a Vizio? Sounds like a common problem with their TVs if-so.

 

[InauguralHobbit]

According to that site linked, FlatpanelsHD.com,

"Technically QMS is a derivative of VRR so a device with VRR should technically be able to support QMS too (but it is not guaranteed)"

So all things willing, maybe a firmware update could enable it on TVs that "only" have VRR support today.

Would I be so lucky to receive such an update down the line, I might consider switching my A12 ATV into the A15 (though I feel that's a rip) just for this feature.

My TV's signal processor has automatic judder detection, aka it can detect 24fps content when fed from a 60Hz-source and adjust without any black screens. I think it internally refreshes at 120Hz when it's being fed 60, so as long as it catches the pattern it can just send each actual new frame 5 times and it will look correct.

25fps (PAL land..) on the other hand still needs this feature. I use my TV provider's ATV-app which is mostly great but all video feeds (representing channels) are of course 25 or 50 fps while switching between channels toggles a 60 fps UI mode. Lots of black screens.

To tack on, your tv would still need to support QMS. No tv currently on the market supports QMS directly, but LG OLEDs—since the CX—support QMS by consequence a la firmware.

Two requisites must be met by your TV's firmware to indirectly support QMS:

First, your tv must have support for VRR (as many do). Second, your tv must also support LFC (low frame rate compensation) as a supplemental feature to the VRR standard. I'm sure many of you see the labels/tech specs when purchasing your TVs or reading up on firmware updates: Support for 48Hz - 60Hz, or 48Hz - 120Hz, depending on the model.

Well, back in late 2021 LG added LFC support to the LG C1 via firmware update. Up until this point my Xbox Series X was still blacking out when launching a game in HDR10/Dolby Vision (with VRR enabled; all that good stuff), but post firmware update to the C1, the Series X became snappier—near instant—when switching from the Dashboard [SDR] to a game [HDR/DV].

With LFC, the LG C1 OLEDs expand their VRR support specification from 48Hz - 120Hz, to 20Hz - 120Hz.

In conclusion, if your TV supports VRR and LFC then you'll be good to go when using your ATV 4K Gen 3 in regard to QMS when Apple updates it via tvOS "later this year"—granted you connect your ATV directly to your TV.

Edit: Seeing as how iOS 16.2 is slated for a mid-December release we can safely assume tvOS 16.2 will release in tandem with QMS support in tow.

 

[BeatCrazy]

To tack on, your tv would still need to support QMS. No tv on the market supports QMS directly, but LG OLEDs--since the CX--support QMS by consequence.

Two requisites must be met by your TV's firmware to indirectly support QMS:

First, your tv must have support for VRR (as many do). Second, your tv must support LFC (low frame rate compensation) as a supplemental feature to the VRR standard. I'm sure many of you see the labels/tech specs when purchasing your TVs or reading up on firmware updates: Support for 48Hz - 60Hz, or 48Hz - 120Hz depending on the model.

Well, back in late 2021, LG added LFC to the LG C1 with a firmware update. Up until this point my Xbox Series X was still blacking out when launching a game in HDR10/Dolby Vision (with VRR enabled; all that good stuff), but post firmware update to the C1, the Series X became snappier--near instant--when switching from the Dashboard [SDR] to a game [HDR/DV].

With LFC, the LG C1 OLEDs expanded their VRR support specification from 48Hz - 120Hz, to 20Hz - 120Hz.

In conclusion, if your TV supports VRR and LFC then you'll be good to go when you receive your ATV 4K Gen 3 in regard to QMS when Apple updates it via tvOS update "later this year."

Good info, but you might add a caveat: if you're using an AVR/soundbar to switch HDMI devices to your TV, it too must support VRR (and possibly QMS) in order to pass that functionality from the ATV to your display. Not many receivers soundbars do, unless they're very new.

 

[CrzyP]

Good info, but you might add a caveat: if you're using an AVR/soundbar to switch HDMI devices to your TV, it too must support VRR (and possibly QMS) in order to pass that functionality from the ATV to your display. Not many receivers soundbars do, unless they're very new.

Yep. I have a 2021 Denon AVR-S760H that has all the HDMI 2.1 goodies (VRR, QMS, ALLM, etc). Now I just need a TV with 2.1 haha.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Good stuff. Next we need the ability to enable digital bitstream audio passthrough for third party media. Allow us to disable Siri voiceover if that’s the stumbling block. This shouldn’t be hard in 2022. I’ve been using AV gear that supports this basic feature for a minimum of twenty years.

 

[mrr]

Other than the improved Apple TV remote, I have not seen a single compelling reason to upgrade from the HD Apple TV.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Other than the improved Apple TV remote, I have not seen a single compelling reason to upgrade from the HD Apple TV.

You are missing out on some great 4K/Dolby Vision content.

 

[MrTemple]

Holy cats I can finally match content and watch my movies in 24p?!

Until you know, you just don't know how big a deal this is.

If you've never watched a movie in its native 24fps you probably haven't noticed the 3:2 pulldown judder you're seeing. Scaling it 3:2 to 60fps (and even TV attempts to remove that) introduces many visual artifacts. This is sort of like once you start noticing macroblocking or blooming, that's all you can see.

Don't read more on 24p judder if you don't want to see it all the time: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

I thought we were going to have to wait another year or more until 120Hz was supported. Very welcome indeed!

 

[mattopotamus]

QMS is a subset of VRR (which is supported by many TVs).

I think it is TBD on if the QMS implementation on the ATV utilizes enough VRR functionality to reduce the blanked frames with switching frame rates. (is that enough acronyms??)

This. I pulled the lingo in my other post from the product listing on my TV, which supports VRR/QMS.

 

[BeatCrazy]

Holy cats I can finally match content and watch my movies in 24p?!

Until you know, you just don't know how big a deal this is.

If you've never watched a movie in its native 24fps you probably haven't noticed the 3:2 pulldown judder you're seeing. Scaling it 3:2 to 60fps (and even TV attempts to remove that) introduces many visual artifacts. This is sort of like once you start noticing macroblocking or blooming, that's all you can see.

Don't read more on 24p judder if you don't want to see it all the time: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

I thought we were going to have to wait another year or more until 120Hz was supported. Very welcome indeed!

Just so folks are aware, we've had native 24p support on Apple TV for years. As @MrTemple mentions, this new QMS will help the HDMI dropped signal when you go from 24p movies back to the 60p native Apple UI.

Also, 24p has plenty of judder, and not a whole lot different than 3:2 pulldown judder. 3:2 pulldown used to be a bigger deal back when our 24p sources came from 60i data (i.e. DVDs, broadcast 1080i/60) so the interlaced frames could be properly matched up and repeated in a way that favored a bit of judder over tearing or aliasing.

 

[Razorpit]

Can they please do something to Fix the Disney+ app? Hasn’t worked for over a week.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Holy cats I can finally match content and watch my movies in 24p?!

Until you know, you just don't know how big a deal this is.

If you've never watched a movie in its native 24fps you probably haven't noticed the 3:2 pulldown judder you're seeing. Scaling it 3:2 to 60fps (and even TV attempts to remove that) introduces many visual artifacts. This is sort of like once you start noticing macroblocking or blooming, that's all you can see.

Don't read more on 24p judder if you don't want to see it all the time: https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

I thought we were going to have to wait another year or more until 120Hz was supported. Very welcome indeed!

I thought 3:2 pulldown was more of an NTSC DVD thing where you would get a skip once per second to bridge the gap between 24fps (film) and 25fps (50hz).

Until recently I’ve always preferred native progressive 24fps but super modern displays are so good at frame interpolation that I now use a medium level of motion smoothing. I have all my ATV content playing native but with the display doing the frame interpolation to smooth off the judder. Looks like 48fps so much smoother but remains relatively filmic. Best compromise for me. My previous set introduced a lot of artefacts in this mode so it definitely depends on the quality of the video processing.

 

[BeatCrazy]

I thought 3:2 pulldown was more of an NTSC DVD thing where you would get a skip once per second to bridge the gap between 24fps and 25fps (50hz).

Until recently I’ve always preferred native progressive 24p but super modern displays are so good at frame interpolation that I now use a medium level of motion smoothing. I have all my ATV content playing native but with the display doing the frame interpolation to smooth off the judder. Looks like 48p so much smoother but remains relatively filmic. Best compromise for me. My previous set introduced a lot of artefacts in this mode so it definitely depends on the quality of the video processing.

You always need 3:2 pulldown to display 24p content on a 60Hz display. With film-based NTSC DVD or broadcasts, you also needed de-interlacing to take the encoded 60i fields, and match the correct fields into a single frame, repeat (3,2,3,2,3,2) those matched-up frames, so you get 60 of them total, every second.

 

[entropys]

I grew up with analog TV. I flipped a switch, and the TV came on. I turned a dial, and the channel changed instantly. The controls were tactile and the response instant.
I stopped watching TV at some point before the switch to digital TV and smart TVs. I visited some friends who had a TV recently, and the thing's nearly unusable. You have to use one controller to turn on the TV, then turn on the cable box and switch to that remote controller, wait a while for both the TV and cable box to warm up, and then switching channels will take you at least a second per channel. The Apple TV is another remote, and it too has lags and delays. It was too much for me to put up with. The TV user experience has degraded beyond what I'm willing to put up with, and that's not even considering the quality of programming. It's much faster and easier to watch something on my iPad.

I can remember TVs that had to warm up.

 

[compwiz1202]

Can they please do something to Fix the Disney+ app? Hasn’t worked for over a week.

At all? I'm trying to remember if that was the app that was going black until I went back and resumed?

 

[Jim Lahey]

You always need 3:2 pulldown to display 24p content on a 60Hz display. With film-based NTSC DVD or broadcasts, you also needed de-interlacing to take the encoded 60i fields, and match the correct fields into a single frame, repeat (3,2,3,2,3,2) those matched-up frames, so you get 60 of them total, every second.

I see. Thanks 👍

 

[jozero]

I am amused with the idea that a couple seconds' worth of blackness when switching videos is a problem that we as a society decided it's worth it to solve. Ever onward!

It's not just at the start. If you watch YouTube it's the start and end of every ad - so every few seconds or minutes. Its rather annoying

 

[Silverado]

I don't care if you guys make fun, but this is a feature I may actually use as an excuse to upgrade. I have a strong preference for Match Content/frame rates, and my TV throws up it's default screen saver just when I move between the Home Screen and apps. So I might lose image about 10 times in 2 minutes just bouncing around.

And I do have a TV and 8K HDMI switching that supports QMS. Just needed a source.

Note that the article says that using this feature will require a new TV that supports it, since no current TV supports this yet.