Quick Takes: Apple's Ecosystem Explained, Crumb-Resistant MacBook Keyboards, and More

[Tech198]

Some people spend their entire lives in one eco-system.. nothing wrong with that.. Just as long you also know, i'll defend against it

It's just the NSA having a single mind set goal to collecting privacy.. without no knowledge about what goes on outside those walls.

one thing i hate about Apple service is there is no option to "delete " anything...,. Doesn't that gripe others ?

Everything may become useless, but your AppleID is still and always will be there. Apple won't remove it on request either, because they want you back..

Where's my friggen "Remove Account" button.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Apple shares have technically traded for higher prices, but today's record high factors in multiple stock splits, including a 7-for-1 split in 2014. Apple's market cap now hovers around the $915 billion mark

In 35 years of investing I have only ever heard of this technicality on MR. Probably because it’s nonsense.

 

[CmdrLaForge]

Yeah — reliable keyboards. How fast from patent product?

I am all in to the Apple system but I made sure I can get out in case of need.

 

[varunsanthanam]

Crumb-resistant keyboard. I like the idea.
[doublepost=1520638561][/doublepost]Describing integrated features across different products as being "hooks," shows how ignorant or biased Marques Brownlee is.

Marques is anything but ignorant. That analogy is pretty apt. I disagree with the guy a lot and as you'll see by my signature I'm a very happy inside the Apple eco system, but the dude isn't totally out of line on this one. He deserves more credit than you are giving him. The Apple ecosystem is notoriously difficult to escape, but it's also good enough that few people ever have that problem.

 

[japanime]

They might want to, but they can't without redesigning the current form factor; a very expensive process. They've only had two years with the current form factor, so a redesign this year is probably out of the question.





Do you guys do anything special to prevent crumbs and dust from entering the keyboard? Any issues with stuck or unreliable keys so far?

Fortunately, I haven't had any issues with crumbs. No stuck or unreliable keys at all.

 

[Bacillus]

Fortunately, I haven't had any issues with crumbs. No stuck or unreliable keys at all.

I haven't had any issues with MacBooks that would justify obsessive thinnification with all the usability consequences beyond your local environment.
This exactly is Marquee's point: as ecosystem inhabitants we have to accept these idiosyncrasies (and design choices, UX/UI and quality issues)
And support their immense luxury/lifestyle/real estate expenditures - all capital lost from the development cycles that should benefit customers.
Apple very much became "The System" they despised in their 1984 ad itself - albeit on a larger scale

 

[ksec]

Most people like the keyboard because of its width and stability.

Most people hate it because its unreliability and lack of depth ( Key travel ).

The first one may now be fixed ( or not we are not sure yet ) the 2nd one doesn't seem to be concern to Apple? I thought Macro said Magnetic Keyboard is coming. I was hopping we could make Butterfly magnet keyboard.

 

[palmerc]

The iPad Pro keyboard (Smart Keyboard) is crumb resistant because it’s covered in fabric.

Apple desperately needs some solution for the new MBPs since the keyboard failure rate is astounding.

You know I am in an office filled with the new Macbook Pros and not one of them has had a keyboard failure...
[doublepost=1520684771][/doublepost]

Most people like the keyboard because of its width and stability.

Most people hate it because its unreliability and lack of depth ( Key travel ).

The first one may now be fixed ( or not we are not sure yet ) the 2nd one doesn't seem to be concern to Apple? I thought Macro said Magnetic Keyboard is coming. I was hopping we could make Butterfly magnet keyboard.

There is always that group of people that insists keyboard X (where X is the IBM PC, Macintosh Extended Keyboard II, or whatever) is the greatest keyboard ever made. The current MBP keyboard is definitely different for the first week you have it, but it is by no means terrible. In fact it is a very nice keyboard. Only the choice of the large left-right arrow keys leaves one wanting.
[doublepost=1520686166][/doublepost]

Some people spend their entire lives in one eco-system.. nothing wrong with that.. Just as long you also know, i'll defend against it

It's just the NSA having a single mind set goal to collecting privacy.. without no knowledge about what goes on outside those walls.

one thing i hate about Apple service is there is no option to "delete " anything...,. Doesn't that gripe others ?

Everything may become useless, but your AppleID is still and always will be there. Apple won't remove it on request either, because they want you back..

Where's my friggen "Remove Account" button.

The one Eco-system, walled-garden is a tired argument.

If you're going to buy an MBP or an iPhone (or Google products for that matter) and you don't use other Apple related or compatible devices you're just making your experience sub-optimal (getting less value for money). Sure, if you like a product from another vendor great, but I find that people that have a patchwork of non-ecosystem products they are amazed when you do something they can't.

The iMessage example, it isn't about blue bubbles, it was about being a viable replacement for SMS which was expensive at the time and full of limitations. MMS which added images was a broken pile of crap with even more limitations. iMessage wasn't close to flawless, but it was competing against garbage. The fact today you can iMessage on your Mac, Watch, iPad, and iPhone without thinking about it is exactly the kind of thing that makes Apple's ecosystem enticing.

AirPlay, AirDrop, HomeKit, Watch unlocking your Mac and Handoff in general are more examples of reward for purchasing within the eco-system.

In every case what has made Apple's ecosystem superior wasn't its absolute cutting edge technical supremacy. It was just better than everything else on the market at scale. This eco-system talk is an ideological rabbit hole and ignores what the ecosystem really represents, synergy. If you're not buying within an ecosystem you're missing out on the synergy of your related purchases and you're getting a lesser experience.

 

[Bacillus]

In every case what has made Apple's ecosystem superior wasn't its absolute cutting edge technical supremacy. It was just better than everything else on the market at scale. This eco-system talk is an ideological rabbit hole and ignores what the ecosystem really represents, synergy. If you're not buying within an ecosystem you're missing out on the synergy of your related purchases and you're getting a lesser experience.

You’re in an ideological rabbit hole yourself. The IT-industry has been a continuous struggle between standardisation and proprietary system vendors that close out others to benefit themselves.
There is no reason that higher standards of cooperation shouldn’t become the norm and require or force vendors to cooperate on a higher level.

 

[palmerc]

You’re in an ideological rabbit hole yourself. The IT-industry has been a continuous struggle between standardisation and proprietary system vendors that close out others to benefit themselves.
There is no reason that higher standards of cooperation shouldn’t become the norm and require vendors to cooperate on a higher level.

That is where you're wrong, there is no struggle. The industry is very clear on this, they're for proprietary and they're for open, when it benefits them. Currently the mandate for cooperation is driven by avoiding litigation related to anti-competitive behaviour or when customers stop buying their products. That makes for a fairly weak mandate on cooperation.

 

[parsonsmike]

Crumb-resistant keyboard. I like the idea.

My 2015 MBP has one.

 

[Arran]

That is where you're wrong, there is no struggle. The industry is very clear on this, they're for proprietary and they're for open, when it benefits them. Currently the mandate for cooperation is driven by avoiding litigation related to anti-competitive behaviour or when customers stop buying their products. That makes for a fairly weak mandate on cooperation.

But in the long-run, open systems win-out over closed systems. Market forces and all.

That doesn't mean a supplier can't make bank off a proprietary architecture for a time. Eventually, however, customers resent lock-in and competitors emerge.

You don't see many MicroChannel/OS2 machines these days. And that was all IBM's baby. You know, back when IBM was the hardware colossus. There may be a lesson for Apple there.

 

[Glockworkorange]

The iPad Pro keyboard (Smart Keyboard) is crumb resistant because it’s covered in fabric.

Apple desperately needs some solution for the new MBPs since the keyboard failure rate is astounding.

Oh jeez—-don’t give them any ideas to make a mac keyboard out of fabric...

 

[citysnaps]

I haven't had any issues with MacBooks that would justify obsessive thinnification with all the usability consequences beyond your local environment.
This exactly is Marquee's point: as ecosystem inhabitants we have to accept these idiosyncrasies (and design choices, UX/UI and quality issues)
And support their immense luxury/lifestyle/real estate expenditures - all capital lost from the development cycles that should benefit customers.
Apple very much became "The System" they despised in their 1984 ad itself - albeit on a larger scale

It's OK if you feel the need to be an ecosystem inhabitant and feel forced to accept accompanying idiosyncracies.

However, many, including myself, don't. And simply purchase what meets our needs. I much prefer thin/lightweight laptops with decent performance and a great display, that are reliable and meet my needs. If you don't, simply purchase what's important to you and meets your needs. The good news is there are tons of choices out there. If Apple's corporate direction irritates you, simply vote with your wallet and purchase what would satisfy your requirements, from a company with a corporate direction that feels good to you.

I don't feel lock-in in the slightest. Nor do I stress over how Apple (or any other company) chooses to use their capital for real estate or any other needs - that's their business to determine what's right for them. If that worries you, simply purchase computers/phones/tech from other companies.

 

[sracer]

Secondly, the idea that Apple’s primary motivation is lock-in, rather than giving the user the best possible experience is a projection or speculation, not a fact.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, but the evidence indicates otherwise. If their primary motivation is "giving the user the best possible experience", then why is Apple increasingly making it difficult to leave the ecosystem? Why is it that over time they REMOVE options that make it easier to leave? How does that give the user the "best possible experience"?

The more heavily someone integrates their workflows into the Apple ecosystem, the more difficult it is to get out.

How much first-hand experience do you have with assisting people who try to extract themselves? I have quite a bit, and it isn't straightforward. iTunes, iCloud, and Messages being the primary but not only culprits.

Now one could reply, that removing functionality that directly or indirectly assists with leaving the ecosystem was done to improve the quality of the remaining code, but THAT would be projection and speculation.

All companies with an ecosystem try to lock their customers in. This isn't something that is unique to Apple. And it is not nefarious. That is the financial benefit to the company... lock-in. Companies invest a lot of resources in developing and maintaining the ecosystem. If it were so easy to leave it, then that is a large financial risk to the company.

There's: "buy-in", "stickiness", and "lock-in". Buy-in gets people to enter the walled garden. Stickiness is the reason they stay...benefits, services, perceived value. But then there comes a tipping point where the restrictions and limitations (and all ecosystems have them) become irritants to the point where one might consider leaving. That is where the "lock-in" comes into play. As long as the cost/pain of leaving is greater than the irritation of the restrictions, people stay.

 

[DiscFreak]

Marques Brownlee is a decent enough guy, and his general theory here seems alright, though it’s nothing we haven’t heard before. But I think some of the motivations that he attributes to a few things in this video are a little off.

First of all, he suggests that one of the goals Apple has every time they invent a new product is to gather more of your data, which is a bit specious. Apple sells products, not advertising, so a user’s data does not have the same sinister value for Apple that it does to Google and Amazon.

Secondly, the idea that Apple’s primary motivation is lock-in, rather than giving the user the best possible experience is a projection or speculation, not a fact. Apple didn’t invent the W1 chip to lock people into the ecosystem, they did it to make the wireless experience better and smoother because the existing Bluetooth and chip technologies in the marketplace couldn’t do what they wanted. This is true a lot of the time—Apple gets into businesses or areas where the current technology isn’t good enough. Texting sucked so they fixed it and made it better. But the reason they didn’t make Messages or FaceTime available for other formats first and foremost is that they don’t control the hardware and software of Android and other phone makers, (and there’s a lot of cheap hardware out there) so they cannot assure a high level customer experience the way they traditionally like to.

It all goes back to the early days when a lot of third party companies didn’t make hardware/software that was Mac compatible, so Jobs and Apple often had to roll up their sleeves and make some of their own hardware and software out of necessity, lest Mac buyers might be so underserved that they leave the platform.

Thirdly, and this cannot be emphasized enough, every other manufacturer out there would love to keep you in their ecosystem—they just aren’t as good at it!

[doublepost=1520692821][/doublepost]I found the video to be interesting and validating as to why I drink the Apple flavored KoolAid every day! There are two ways we approach our devices. One focuses on the device itself. This is where some people like to have control to innovate and be creative. They may want to change settings that are off limits to mere mortals in an Apple device and find much more satisfaction in being able to make changes, and in some cases, explore all those things on the other side of the garden wall. Nothing wrong with this at all.

The other approach is that we use technology to do stuff. This is my personal focus. I create many things in my work and hobbies. As a Psychology Professor, I create class materials (Word and Dreamweaver) and slide presentations (Keynote), I use spreadsheets (Excel), and I publish my course content in eBooks (iBooks Author) and distribute them to my students devices (iPads get the iBooks and others get a PDF).

I Airplay my Keynotes to my Apple TV in the classroom, and sometimes accept student submissions and distribute resources using Airdrop.

iCloud has enabled me to access my Keynotes from anywhere (including podiums during presentations when all other technologies have failed!)

As a musician I record music (GarageBand and Logic) and I maintain my band website (Dreamweaver). I listen to music on iTunes with my account and if I can't find a song (never happened so far) I would buy it and load it into my local library.

I watch "Game of Thrones" and all kinds of other services on my Apple TV and Airplay slides shows of family pictures using the same device.

I guess I'm too busy creating to worry about what is on the other side of the wall. My creativity has not exceeded the limits of iBooks Author and Logic (I mean, really!) so I'm still feeling no limits.

I love the ecosystem and everything that Apple does because they gradually disappear into the background and all that is left is what I created. Having used nearly every other system, Apple is simply the best at this.

Mark H. Kavanaugh, Ph.D.
Apple Distinguished Educator, Class of 2017

 

[sracer]

[doublepost=1520692821][/doublepost]I found the video to be interesting and validating as to why I drink the Apple flavored KoolAid every day! There are two ways we approach our devices. One focuses on the device itself. This is where some people like to have control to innovate and be creative. They may want to change settings that are off limits to mere mortals in an Apple device and find much more satisfaction in being able to make changes, and in some cases, explore all those things on the other side of the garden wall. Nothing wrong with this at all.

[ snipped ]

Mark H. Kavanaugh, Ph.D.
Apple Distinguished Educator, Class of 2017

Being "locked-in" to an ecosystem is never a problem... until one wants to leave.

 

[everythingapplerainbow]

Wanted to download my kid's music bought on iTunes. I find it absurd you must go through iTunes program. I can log onto any computer I want and download my Googe or Amazon music from a browser.

I don't know if Google Music has a Mac/PC app but listening to music from browser really sucks because you cannot control with media keys.
Just my 2 cents: you can play music you buy from iTunes on any other music player (like ... Groove)

 

[npmacuser5]

Crumb-resistant keyboard, magical. Hardly wait for the ads!

 

[robbyx]

Interesting. Don’t get locked into one ecosystem. Does that include google?

I think the ecosystem is largely a myth anyway. I don’t feel locked to Apple. Things are a lot more open, portable, and interchangeable today than back in the 80s or 90s when proprietary formats and protocols ruled. Today it might be a minor pain to move from one service to another, but it’s very doable.

 

[QCassidy352]

So yes. Apple has built very high walls around their “garden.” And it’s fine and cool being inside, but you’re either totally in or totally out.

Simply not true. Yes, there are some devices that cannot be used without other Apple tie ins (HomePod and watch being the most obvious). But, (1) most Apple products are not that way, and (2) it’s not at all hard to add non-Apple products to a mostly-Apple setup. Two examples that work very well for me: garmin 645 (over Apple watch) and onedrive for cloud storage (rather than iCloud). Obviously, these products do not have the very deep integration that apple’s alternatives to do, but they nonetheless work quite effectively with my other Apple products.

 

[yanksfan114]

Here's a wild idea Apple - Why don't you admit to your mistake and realize that the butterfly keyboards were an indulgence in Ive's ego (much like the Trash Can Mac was) and go back to the scissor keyswitches?

I LOVE the new keyboards. I’d rather they just refine it than go back to the old one.

 

[cracksoup]

Apples echosystem is an absolute breeze to use. I don’t want to switch back and forth because that would be a hassle. I agree that tech reviewers should switch once in a while to get an opinion which is as unbiased as possible. But for people who just want to get things done and get on with their other interests in their life, I’m not surprised that Apple is the one choice for those who can afford it.

 

[neoelectronaut]

Individuals mock others for the colors of their text message bubbles? What the hell is wrong with people?

 

[Wags]

I respect the fact that some people hate the butterfly keyboard, but I personally love it. So, if it was a "mistake" that Apple made the switch, it's one that I'm happy about.

Problem is not really the feel but the failure rate. They work then all of sudden go bad.