Rant: 30-year Mac fanatic finally buys Windows

[Anathem]

+1 to all this. I've been using Mac since system 6, depend on it for my work, seriously looking at Windows for my next upgrade.

If the headline for the upcoming iMacs is "even thinner", I'm out of here.

 

[gertruded]

+2 to all this. We purchased a Windows machine for Christmas and have started the difficult job of converting our files. Started with an Apple ][ plus and ended with and iPhone 6S+. Next phone will not be an iPhone either. We are currently running a 2007 iMac, a 2009 Mini, and a 2012 Air, none of which have a replacement in sight from Apple. Any refreshed iMacs are sure to have absurd price increases as the Macbook "Pro" just did.

 

[cynics]

Just skimming through here but right now is a bad time to buy/build a PC. You can find pretty much any tech reviewer that isn't an Intel and/or nvidia only fan saying that. And even if they are most are curious what Zen and Vega will do to the market as far as Intel/nvidia pricing.

This applies to Apple as well. If they really wanted to do a cash grab they would have had a minor spec bump recycling much of the currently used parts.

I plan on building a PC for VR but not this close to releases while the premiums are so high. That's like buying an iPhone 7 at full retail days before the 7S releases. Even if you don't need or want the 7S the 7 is about to drop 100 dollars.

Just my thoughts on it. I think it's best to see what the next update brings. If it's not till Oct/Nov or offers this years tech then criticize away.

 

[jpietrzak8]

Just skimming through here but right now is a bad time to buy/build a PC.

Hmm. If you've already got up-to-date tech, that could be true. However, if you're currently using a Mac Mini, now is a great time to buy/build a PC, as all the tech out there is several years more advanced than what you've got, more powerful than the most powerful parts you could possibly have, more flexible than anything you've got, while still being less expensive than anything Apple sells.

Apple is just way, way behind the times right now. Especially with the Mac Mini.

 

[Crosscreek]

I'm getting excited about Zen and what it may bring with it. Intel may be in for a shock. New Vega GPUs coming to from AMD that may shock Nvidia.
Apple could if they wanted, take advantage of whats coming but I really don't think they consider desktop computers important anymore to their road-map.

 

[wikge]

Just skimming through here but right now is a bad time to buy/build a PC. You can find pretty much any tech reviewer that isn't an Intel and/or nvidia only fan saying that. And even if they are most are curious what Zen and Vega will do to the market as far as Intel/nvidia pricing.

This applies to Apple as well. If they really wanted to do a cash grab they would have had a minor spec bump recycling much of the currently used parts.

I plan on building a PC for VR but not this close to releases while the premiums are so high. That's like buying an iPhone 7 at full retail days before the 7S releases. Even if you don't need or want the 7S the 7 is about to drop 100 dollars.

Just my thoughts on it. I think it's best to see what the next update brings. If it's not till Oct/Nov or offers this years tech then criticize away.

As someone who is not well-versed in component roadmaps and looking to build/buy a PC soon (or buy a new Mac Mini/Pro if that comes first), can you expand on why now is a bad time? Thanks.

 

[Crosscreek]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/3154233/computers/intels-new-nuc-mini-desktops-get-kaby

 

[Razzerman]

+1 with everything you said OP. Watching TC and the gang these days churn out hardware has become a cringefest for me. 2017 will hopefully be a year where things are much clearer for the hardware offerings. In some ways, I'm almost rooting for apple to stick with their 'thinness is great, ain't it!?!' routine.

 

[tubular]

By the way, just to give you a sense of how old-school I really am, I should point out that this is actually the *second* Microsoft product I've owned. The first was "Level III Basic" -- an add-on to the TRS-80 Model I BASIC interpreter in the late '70s that came as a cassette tape, because that's what the TRS-80 used for storage. The product came from a company that called itself MicroSoft, and the code it self was written by "MicroSoft's president, Bill Gates."

Whoever he is, I wonder if he made out okay after the TRS-80 was killed by the IBM-PC.

 

[Crosscreek]

By the way, just to give you a sense of how old-school I really am, I should point out that this is actually the *second* Microsoft product I've owned. The first was "Level III Basic" -- an add-on to the TRS-80 Model I BASIC interpreter in the late '70s that came as a cassette tape, because that's what the TRS-80 used for storage. The product came from a company that called itself MicroSoft, and the code it self was written by "MicroSoft's president, Bill Gates."

Whoever he is, I wonder if he made out okay after the TRS-80 was killed by the IBM-PC.

Still have this one laying around.

 

[jpietrzak8]

Still have this one laying around.
View attachment 681629

Man, that reminds me that I need to dig up mine, it should still be in a desk drawer somewhere:

 

[MH01]

Thanks OP, I completely understand where you are coming from.

I too have a 2012 quad core, and decided to upgrade it with an intel Skull canyon , much smaller and much more powerful, this little box humbles MacBooks pros and iMacs plugged into a 980ti. I can even install OS X on it .

For me being to upgrade is a huge loss in apple products. I see the new stuff as planned obsolescence , no more getting the actual value out of macs like in the past, my 2009 iMac would have been retired a long time ago, though a raid 0 ssd upgrade and 16GB ram has seen it perform great and going strong .
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When the PPC first came out, yes that was the case, but Intel did catch up and over take them on performance. Intel dedicated all its resources to improving the x86 chip (which makes sense since its their major product for profits), but for Moto and IBM it was not their main focus and so improvements were more incremental and it took longer to roll them out.


It could be that Apple sees the computer sector shrinking and not investing as much as others, because they don't see a positive long term prognosis. They've effectively commoditized their computers, i.e., disposable computers. Of course that doesn't address why they've largely ignored the Mini and the MP.

I'm a big believer in value for my money, and right now, I find I can get more value for my limited funds from PC makers then Macs.

Totally agree. My 2012 custom PC I build, has been upgraded many times and has not missed a beat since 2012, it's been great value for money, add to the fact I've been able to overclock it to 4.8 rock solid , I still don't had a compelling reason to upgrade, though I have replaced my titans with a titan x pascal and it flies , did a 3Dmark bench test and its sits just outside top 100 systems. Best thing I ever did was try water cooling , wow, a very cool system is so stable and reliable .

 

[tubular]

It seems to me that Apple doesn't recognize that it has two lines of desktop -- the headless and the all-in-one. They treat it as if Macs were a single line, rather than two separate lines that each deserve their own full spectrum of performance. Because Apple sees it as a single line rather than two, they believe that the headless machines might cannibalize from the all-in-ones if there's a performance overlap, and so they have to position the headless machines so they don't -- they're either too lobotomized ("if I only had a brain") or they're the hyperexpensive tin can ("if I only had a heart") to compete with the iMacs.

Apple, that's dumb. Don't think of it as one product line. It's two.

 

[cynics]

Hmm. If you've already got up-to-date tech, that could be true. However, if you're currently using a Mac Mini, now is a great time to buy/build a PC, as all the tech out there is several years more advanced than what you've got, more powerful than the most powerful parts you could possibly have, more flexible than anything you've got, while still being less expensive than anything Apple sells.

Apple is just way, way behind the times right now. Especially with the Mac Mini.

I'm not denying that at all you can and will always be able to build a more up to date and powerful PC.

Macs in general with their lack of upgradability will never be able to be the most powerful and up to date vs something you can build. Or compared to companies with more product lines or update more often etc etc.

By the time Apple can manufacture and release a system all of those components were already available to the public. They can't and will never be able to compete with me building a single system.

There is some irony about this. Say they stuck a 6700k in an Mac mini back in October. Today it would be outdated and just like the new MacBook Pro it will be criticized for not using Kaby Lake regardless of its availability.
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As someone who is not well-versed in component roadmaps and looking to build/buy a PC soon (or buy a new Mac Mini/Pro if that comes first), can you expand on why now is a bad time? Thanks.

AMD is on the verge of releasing their next line of CPUs and GPUs. Rumors and initial benchmarks are looking very promising.

If you are the type that isn't interested in AMD products Intel and nVidia will likely respond in some way which should benefit consumers in one way or another, hopefully price drops.

 

[kazmac]

Has anyone switched over to a System76 Meerkat system (https://system76.com/desktops/meerkat), either running Linux or as a Hackintosh? Looks like you can get a fairly nice little system for under $700 US.

Thank you for posting. Apparently the bank screwed up my order so no Alpha for me. However, the all in one Sable in that link looks nice. So here's a question, if I just want to use Linux out of the box do I have to learn any coding/programming? System76 has some nice basics on their main page. but just wondering.

 

[Crosscreek]

Thank you for posting. Apparently the bank screwed up my order so no Alpha for me. However, the all in one Sable in that link looks nice. So here's a question, if I just want to use Linux out of the box do I have to learn any coding/programming? System76 has some nice basics on their main page. but just wondering.

You should never have to do any coding but there are basic Linux commands to run in the terminal window if you need to get packages or apps that are not in the software add on section that is included in Ubuntu. The commands will let you download apps from different repositories and for installation.

 

[jpietrzak8]

So here's a question, if I just want to use Linux out of the box do I have to learn any coding/programming?

Nope! Although, just as with starting out completely fresh with Windows or OS X, you'll probably have to get the hang of how a particular distribution works.

And yeah, each distribution has its own way of doing things. Ubuntu has pushed hard for a thoroughly GUI-based interface, which lots of people like. Many of their GUI concepts are almost clones of OS X as well, so you might find that convenient.

Ubuntu is itself based on the Debian distribution. Debian is an open-source purist distribution; any source code that is copyrighted is kept out. This does end up limiting the distribution somewhat (and, in fact, one of Ubuntu's adaptations to Debian is to put that copyrighted software back in), but many movement users prefer this approach.

Fedora (by Red Hat) is another long-time popular distribution. However, it places less emphasis on having a perfect GUI experience, and more on having the latest enterprise-level software (as one of its purposes is to test out the software they use for their enterprise clients).

openSUSE is a European-oriented distribution. I haven't tried it out lately, but in the past they provided a very Windows-like experience with their GUI.

And, if you really do want to learn what is under the hood in a Linux distribution, there is always Arch. These guys have put together a mechanism where you choose all the pieces of the system you want, build them yourself, and then install them yourself onto your own computer. This is actually not as hard as it sounds, and is by far my favorite distribution. However, I have to admit that building an Arch Linux box is extremely time consuming...

In any case, while it can be useful to learn about controlling Linux via shell commands, it isn't really necessary. Most distributions use a "package manager" to deal with installing and uninstalling software, and have decent GUI utility apps to manage the hardware. You'll just need to get used to the system provided by the distribution you choose.

 

[kazmac]

Thank you again @Crosscreek and @jpietrzak8 extremely informative. I am looking at System76's desktops (particularly the iMac-like Sable and the Wild Dog tower) as a possible replacement. I read their pages on Ubuntu. Okay, not that scary from their perspective. I will probably print out the Ubuntu-Manual and give it a read over the next few days.

Fascinating stuff, I haven't wrangled this kind of programming in decades, but I'll either run with a Surface machine or try an Ubuntu one from System76. The similarities to Mac OS in the GUI are definitely a huge plus.

 

[Cave Man]

Still have this one laying around.
View attachment 681629

Holy smokes, me too! With the mini dot matrix printer and tape recorder adapter. I wonder if it still works...

 

[merkinmuffley]

I bought my first mac in 1984 and 4 weeks bought a Windows 10 system. Never had a Windows system in the house, we currently have 6 Macs here and this new Lenovo laptop. The only program I'm running is PS/CC - and it runs fine on the Lenovo. The Cook/Ive Apple is not someplace I will be buying computing products from anymore, those 2016 MBP's are a clear sign they don't want my business.

 

[2ilent8cho]

Its ok OP, i moved to Mac 4 years ago after being a Windows only user since 1994. I finally had enough of Windows, could not take its sh*t anymore. You would have to drag me back to Windows kicking and screaming, its horrid enough having to use Windows 10 at work sometimes.

 

[shaunp]

Honestly these complaints can be applied to 1996 as much as 2016. Macs have never been a good buy in my opinion. If you've owned a Mac you've always overpaid for the same hardware found in a windows machine. If you want to tell it like it is, Apple has only excelled at one thing over Windows - user experience. It was true in the 80's and still true today.

OP's rant is completely valid but talks about specs and price. I personally don't think Apple has ever won the spec or price battle.

At one point I was prepared to pay the premium to have a Mac because the entire ecosystem when used with iCloud and an iPhone just worked better than anything else out there. Now even if I wanted to I couldn't - I need a laptop with more than 16GB RAM and Apple don't make such a machine, while every single one of their competitors do and have done for quite a while.

It's a shame because it wasn't that long ago Apple had it so right. They are making terrible choices with their hardware which are turning customers away from the best ecosystem. It wouldn't even take them that much to fix it - A high-end laptop (not thin and light) with plenty of ports, user upgradable RAM and storage, and a matte screen option; a proper Mac Pro in a tower case (I've just moved from a trashcan MP to a PC and I have so much less clutter because everything is in one case under my desk); and a machine that sits between the mini and the Mac Pro just called the Mac - use the current MP form factor as it is a nice design if you don't need tons of expandability. And finally create a slightly thicker iPhone and put the sodding headphone jack back where it belongs!

None of this will ever happen however with the current Apple management team. We are seeing yet again that Apple cannot be run by an accountant!
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Its ok OP, i moved to Mac 4 years ago after being a Windows only user since 1994. I finally had enough of Windows, could not take its sh*t anymore. You would have to drag me back to Windows kicking and screaming, its horrid enough having to use Windows 10 at work sometimes.

OSX is better, but if your work requires higher spec hardware and Apple don't make it. Guess what, you are going to end up with a PC. Apple don't give high-end users the choice any more.
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When someone "rants" I generally just ignore them. I started with an Apple ][ in 1978, got a Fat Mac 512 in 1985. Most recent purchase was a used 2012 2.6ghz i7 quad mini. I love that machine and it should meet my needs for another year or two. When I find it no longer meets my needs, I will replace it with whatever other kind of Mac does meet my needs. It may not be my "dream machine", but I'm sure there will be something that will work. If it has to be an iMac, so be it.

I have plenty of complaints about Apple, but not enough to make me switch. But if the day comes when I do switch, I won't waste further time "ranting" about it on MacRumors.

OTOH, this does point out something that I've always liked about the Mac. People are really passionate about it, one way or the other.

This is why people rant on here - frustration with Apple. It is the best desktop experience, but it needs hardware to run and that's becoming more and more difficult to justify buying.

 

[Crosscreek]

OSX is better, but if your work requires higher spec hardware and Apple don't make it. Guess what, you are going to end up with a PC. Apple don't give high-end users the choice any more.

A+...... This is bottom line.

 

[zorinlynx]

If Apple really doesn't want to make Macs anymore, they should license MacOS to officially run on non-Apple hardware.

I don't even think they'd need to charge for it! The money they'd make from people using iCloud services, Apple Music, buying apps and services and such would probably make it a winning financial move.

I don't think they will, though. It leaves me in a bad spot because I REALLY FREAKING LIKE MacOS, I've just become disappointed with Apple's hardware. I hate having to hobble myself hardware-wise just to run an OS that I really like. Moving to Windows really isn't an option; I see day to day at work how frustrating Windows is to use and administer.

Really hoping that Apple surprises us in a good way this year.

 

[MacBH928]

in early 2000's Apple used to wow us with their beautiful new designs and software, that made you capable of doing more while being more efficient in an easier manner. The white ibooks, the titanium powerbooks, and the lamp iMac (still feel this is best designed PC desktop). Its just not there any more.

I am sad though because in general, people are moving away from the PC. Everyone is just satisfied with their handheld phone. Computers today are so powerful they can last you easily 5-7 years on the opposite of the 3 year period back then(before being outdated). Less sales, smaller margin, more powerful long lasting products means diminishing innovation and new products.